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Need canon information about Gazelle Class

rancke

Absent Friend
In a post here on CotI back in 2003, I claimed that the Gazelle (The first ship of the class) had the tail number CE-13712 and the Unicorn (a sample ship shown in JTAS #4) the tail number CE-13768. I was using it as evidence that the Gazelle must have been built not too long before 1080. I'm absolutely positive that I wouldn't have written that if I hadn't found it in some canonical source. It's just not the kind of information that I would make up myself, nor would I use something I'd made up myself as evidence like that. However, I'm unable to find the reference(s) again. I'm especially puzzled that I can't find the Unicorn's number in JTAS #4, because where else would that particular ship be mentioned? Maybe it is there and I'm overlooking it? If anyone can help me with that (or the tail numbers of any other Gazelle Class ship), I'd be most grateful.

Oh, and while I'm at it, I might as well ask for canonical mentions of any Gazelle class ship anywhere.


Hans
 
Check High Guard Book 5 page 50:

CE-13768 Unicorn CE-3455762-300000-401000-0 MCr355.99 300 tons
batteries bearing 2 2 Crew=I 2
batteries 2 2 TL=14
Passengers=O. Low Berths=O. Cargo=6. Fuel=81. EP=21. Agility=O. Troops=O.
Note: L-Hyd Tanks add 100 tons of fuel and mass (CE-4444762) and cost MCr.1 I.
 
Supplement 7 p47

Code:
TYPE CE CLOSE ESCORT
CE-13712 Gazelle CE-3455762-300000-500004-0 MCr353.19 300 tons
CE-13768 Unicorn CE-3455762-300000-401000-0 MCr355.99 300 tons
batteries bearing 2 2 Crew=l2.
batteries 2 2 TL=14.
Passengers=O. Low Berths=O. Cargo=6. Fuel=81. EP=21. Agility=O. Troops=O.
Note: L-Hyd tanks add 100 tons of fuel and mass (CE-4444762) and Cost MCr.11.

When did TL=14 hit ?

>
 
Thanks a lot, Jeff and Gadrin and VB. That sets my mind at ease.

When did TL=14 hit ?
The Imperium reached TL 14 in 700 and TL 15 in 1000 [MT:Referee's Companion, p. 34].

So much is canon (If you accept MT as canon ;)). But just what that means is open to interpretation. Personally I think the time an empire reaches a given TL is when it reaches a certain threshold in terms of worlds capable of building ships of that TL and/or a certain concentration of civilian ships of that TL. I also have a theory that the Imperial Navy classified both jump-5 and jump-6 drives as military secrets and kept them under wraps for as long as they could (in the face of corporations and member worlds all clamoring to be allowed to use it). So the jump-5 drive might have been invented a couple of decades before it became declassified and it might have taken another couple of decades for the drive to become ubiquitous. Likewise for the jump-6 drive.

But drop tanks (or rather, the special capacitors that allow ships to use drop tanks) are not a TL 14 technology. According to the ship-building rules, they can be built at TL 9, IIRC[*]. However, they weren't invented until the second half of the 11th Century. According to a TNS newsbrief, in 1105 they had been in use in the core for a couple of decades.


Hans


[*] That could be a mistake, of course.
 
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13712

produced no hits on the CD-rom so I figured it was a scan-error.

it actually comes thru as

Code:
TYPE CE CLOSE ESCORT
C E-137 1 2 Gazelle CE-3455762-300000-500004-0 MCr353.19 300 tons
CE-1 3768 Unicorn CE-3455762-300000-401000-0 MCr355.99 300 tons
batteries bearing 2 2 Crew=l2.
batteries 2 2 TL=14.
Passengers=O. Low Berths=O. Cargo=6. Fuel=81. EP=21. Agility=O. Troops=O.
Note: L-Hyd tanks add 100 tons of fuel and mass (CE-4444762) and Cost MCr.1 I.

Luckily "Gazelle" wasn't messed up.

>
 
Where'd you get that from ? (Which CT source).
I got it from the MT source I mentioned in the brackets at the end of the sentence.

Though, come to think of it, I'm sure the Third Imperium dates are from some CT source originally. It's the First and Second Imperium dates on the same page that were new.

I'll try and see if I can find a CT reference.


Hans
 
...But drop tanks (or rather, the special capacitors that allow ships to use drop tanks) are not a TL 14 technology. According to the ship-building rules, they can be built at TL 9, IIRC
[*].

[*] That could be a mistake, of course.

TL12 in High Guard 1st edition (no tons, Cr500,000). Can't recall what other versions said about them if they did.

As far as I recall the idea of special capacitors was dumped after HG1, it's not part of HG2, and no TL is mentioned as required. Which doesn't really help in setting them in the Imperial setting but clearly they can be made and used at TL9 (regardless of the year) if going by HG2 (not the setting but kind of a critical element of it).

I know we disagree here but I say bunk to drop tanks never being used in the Imperium prior to 1105. The news brief (is it not) is about using it on civilian commercial shipping and the catastrophe that results? Who's to say the IN hasn't been (more or less) safely using them in some designs since ever? And only in 1105 is the hide bound bureaucracy finally convinced that maybe the technology is sufficiently mature and safe that civilian commercial ships can be trusted to use it. And then the first company to use it goes and proves the proponents wrong...

...or that's what you're supposed to think. It's obvious that someone sabatoged the works so that civilian commercial shipping won't have drop tanks. Think how badly that would upset the status quo of commerce.
 
Hi
Flight of the Stag by Andrew Keith has the Stag as CE-13791.
Books with Gazelle in them
JTAS #4
Adventure #4 -Leviathan
Book #5-High Guard
Supplement #7-Traders and Gunboats
Supplement #9- Fighting Ships

Dwayne
 
TL12 in High Guard 1st edition (no tons, Cr500,000). Can't recall what other versions said about them if they did.
I could be wrong about TL 9. Maybe it is TL 12.

As far as I recall the idea of special capacitors was dumped after HG1, it's not part of HG2, and no TL is mentioned as required. Which doesn't really help in setting them in the Imperial setting but clearly they can be made and used at TL9 (regardless of the year) if going by HG2 (not the setting but kind of a critical element of it).
But was it dumped because it's a complication that isn't worth paying attention to in an RPG game or because special capacitors didn't exist and never did exist? For their existence, we have background evidence in the form of that newsbrief. Since that is viewpoint writing, it could be wrong, but is there any reason to believe so? The absence of evidence of siginificant drop tank traffic in the Marches argues that there's some reason drop tanks aren't in extensive use. That it's a relatively new invention is IMO a much more plausible explanation than that "They" have kept the technology from being used from one end of Charted Space to the other for 3000 years.

I know we disagree here but I say bunk to drop tanks never being used in the Imperium prior to 1105. The news brief (is it not) is about using it on civilian commercial shipping and the catastrophe that results?
Prior to ca. 1075, actually. As I said above, I think there's evidence that the first Gazelle Class ship was built a few years earlier than 1084.

The news brief is about extending (emphasis mine) a drop tank connection from "the interior" to Regina.

097-1105 Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A)

By TNS Staff Writer

Officials of the General Shipyards on Regina announced that it has completed negotiations with Tukera Lines to locally manufacture L-Hyd drop tanks for use on high-capacity commercial vessels. General will assemble components at its more modern facilities on Pixie (0303-A1001030-D). The first production examples are expected to be available within six months, at which time Tukera Lines will begin high capacity service from the interior. Component assembly will be carried out at General's more modern facilities on Pixie (0303-A100103-D).

L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped with the new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in specially designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon conversion of the fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a safe distance from the vessel.

A spokesman for General Shipyards explained that local yards are not yet capable of manufacturing the long-storage capacitors required for the process, but that production of the drop tanks is possible, thus allowing the high capacity starships of the Tukera Lines to begin service to the Regina subsector.

L-Hyd tanks are not reusable, and thus increase the absolute cost per jump. However, experience has shown that the increase in cargo tonnage resulting from the elimination of internal J-fuel storage more than makes up for this, the press release explained.

The joint press release concluded by stating that local manufacture of L-Hyd drop tanks marks the dawn of a new era of commerce and prosperity in the Regina subsector. Following the announcement, common stock in Oberlindes Lines plummeted 27 points on the Regina exchange before trading was suspended. Officials of Oberlindes Lines were not available for comment.​

Who's to say the IN hasn't been (more or less) safely using them in some designs since ever?
Because if it has been around since the Terran Confederation reached TL 12, they would have been in use by the time the Imperium was founded.

And I'll reverse the question. Why should the IN have been using drop tanks since ever?

And only in 1105 is the hide bound bureaucracy finally convinced that maybe the technology is sufficiently mature and safe that civilian commercial ships can be trusted to use it. And then the first company to use it goes and proves the proponents wrong...
Not for the first 12 years. The Trimkhana Brilliance disaster didn't happen until 1106.

186-1106 Regina /Regina

By TNS Staff Writer

A spokesman for Tukera Lines announced indefinite suspension of high capacity commercial service to the Regina Subsector pending outcome of the official investigation of the Trimkhana-Brilliance tragedy.

Less than a month ago, the 800-ton liner Trimkhana-Brilliance was lost with 217 lives due to a jump capacitor discharge immediately prior to jump. While all four survivors of the disaster are still under intensive medical care, interviews with the one surviving crew member indicate that the capacitor discharge may have been due to a delay in jump after full charging due to a failure of the port inboard L-Hyd drop tank to separate completely.

A Tukera Lines press release stated that a team of company engineers would be "taking a long hard look at General Shipyards' quality control standards."

In the wake of the announcement of high-capacity service suspension, General Shipyards common stock fell 34 points in the Regina exchange before exchange officials suspended trade. Oberlindes Lines stock closed up 5 3/8.​

The accident may have put the kibosh on further expansion of the existing routes for a while, but you'll notice that Tukera is quick to point the finger at General Shipyards' quality control, not the drop tank system itself. I doubt very much that Tukera has any intention of giving up such a lucrative technology.

...or that's what you're supposed to think. It's obvious that someone sabotaged the works so that civilian commercial shipping won't have drop tanks. Think how badly that would upset the status quo of commerce.
Yes, because "They" would be really upset if the megacorporations made even bigger profits, let alone if the tax base in general was increased.


Hans
 
You might have a decent idea of [the Stag's] build date from the operational period of the 5FW.
Well, let's see. The text in JTAS #4 (which corresponds to 060-1106) says that "hundreds" of Gazelles have been built. Let's assume that the number is ca. 300. Ships are numbered consecutively according to the dates they are laid down. The Unicorn was the 57th ship laid down. So between 105-1084 (When the Unicorn was laid down) and 060-1106, some 240 Gazelles were laid down (ignore the complication of how many (if any) weren't counted by the reporter because they were still being built). That's roughly 240 ships in 22 years. It takes 11 months to build a Gazelle, so a shipyard (or one "team" of shipbuilders -- one shipyard could be building more than one ship at a time) can built 24 ships in 22 years. So to build 240 ships you need 10 shipyards. So it would seem that ten Gazelles were being built at any one time.

The Stag has number 13791, so it was the 23rd ship laid down after the Unicorn. 240 ships in 22 years is one ship every 33.5 days on the average. 23 times 33.5 is ~770, so the Stag could have been laid down 2 years and 40 days after the Unicorn, on 145-1086.

I know, I know, there are lots of ways this calculation could be off. The number of ships could be different, Gazelles may have been discontinued long before 1105, the shipyard the Stag was built at could be extra fast or extra slow (the Unicorn took almost 24 months to build, more than twice the 11 months it ought to have taken[*]), the shipyards presumably didn't all start building Gazelles at exactly the same time, 4FW damage repairs might have interrupted building (maybe that's what happened to the Unicorn), etc. To account for random chance, I threw two D6 to get a result of +/- 1-6 months and got a result of -2, making me subtract 60 days from the date above, for a final laid down date of 085-1086.

In any case, the Stag would seem to be a good deal less than 30 years old in 1106, which I can't help worrying might contradict something written in that adventure...


[*] Unless this was the first Gazelle Clan Severn built, in which case it should have taken 16 months. Obviously something was up at Clan Severn Yard).


Hans
 
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I don't see anything wrong with your numbers initially. But 24 months that's s-l-o-w. Maybe they were training another team ;)

Clan Severn might have been able to speed up the process assuming the same teams built the same models (and everything else like raw materials, sub-contractors, etc was even).

I'd probably figure on 11-months as the max, and say 6 (.5 of time-to-build +1) as minimum, again assuming this was a very slick operation. Say start at max and "shift towards" minimum after 2 years ? For a more cinematic approach towards the numbers. Was there any precedence of this in military history ? From WWII or more modern times. David Pulver might be a good source for that type of knowledge.

Nice work. I'd forgotten all about Clan Severn :D

>
 
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Well from a quickie search Clan Severn was building ships at least from 994 so that's a pretty decent operation.
Traveller Adventure mentions them as one of the top shipyards around.

Didn't know Gas-Bag produced ships as well, or at least was in the Top 4
in the Marches.

Code:
March class merchants are produced throughout the Spinward
Marches, and have an excellent service record.
Available from a variety of shipbuilders, the most notable
producers in the Spinward Marches include General
Shipyards, Ling Standard Products, GSbAG, and Clan
Severn.

If you've done a writeup, let me know.

>
 
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I don't see anything wrong with your numbers initially. But 24 months that's s-l-o-w. Maybe they were training another team ;)

Clan Severn might have been able to speed up the process assuming the same teams built the same models (and everything else like raw materials, sub-contractors, etc was even).
The dates for the Unicorn are the ones I didn't make up myself.

I'd probably figure on 11-months as the max, and say 6 (.5 of time-to-build +1) as minimum, again assuming this was a very slick operation. Say start at max and "shift towards" minimum after 2 years ?
That's another canonical part. FS says:

"Construction time: 16 months singly, 11 months in quantity."​

I can't find either my Book 2 nor my HG, so I can't see how long it takes to build a standard 400 T hull.



Hans
 
I can't find either my Book 2 nor my HG, so I can't see how long it takes to build a standard 400 T hull.



Hans

Book 2 says 14 months.
High Guard says 36 months or less.

I did find this...does this jive with canon ?
From J:\Temporary\HIWG\HIWG CD\GHOST\A-L.TXT
Code:
(*)Clan Severn: A Rhylanor based shipbuilder, with associated facilities
on Jae Tellona and Margesi. The Rhylanor yard concentrates on filling
Naval contracts, while civil and merchant operations are dealt with on
Margesi. The Jae Tellona facilities engages primarily in maintenance and
overhauls, but is also capable of constructing some of the simpler
components for the other yards.

>
 
Well from a quickie search Clan Severn was building ships at least from 994 so that's a pretty decent operation.
From 991. The Venomous Observer was laid down on 107-991. ;)

Traveller Adventure mentions them as one of the top shipyards around.

Didn't know Gas-Bag produced ships as well, or at least was in the Top 4 in the Marches.

March class merchants are produced throughout the Spinward Marches, and have an excellent service record. Available from a variety of shipbuilders, the most notable producers in the Spinward Marches include General Shipyards, Ling Standard Products, GSbAG, and Clan Severn.​
I'd say that meant the most notable producers of March class merchants, not necessarily the most notable shipyards overall. General Shipyards (as opposed to General Products) is only a subsector-wide company[*]. Also, notable in what way ;)? 'Notable' is not necessarily 'top'. Think of GS again. :D

If you've done a writeup, let me know.
Not a writeup, but I hope to do an article on the Travelelr wiki (http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page).


Hans
 
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Book 2 says 14 months.
High Guard says 36 months or less.
So 11 months is actually pretty fast. Maybe the IN pays for overtime.

I did find this...does this jive with canon ?

(*)Clan Severn: A Rhylanor based shipbuilder, with associated facilities on Jae Tellona and Margesi. The Rhylanor yard concentrates on filling Naval contracts, while civil and merchant operations are dealt with on Margesi. The Jae Tellona facilities engages primarily in maintenance and overhauls, but is also capable of constructing some of the simpler components for the other yards.​
Mostly it fits. The Rhylanor part fits very well; the Unicorn is registered on Rhylanor. Margesi supposedly has a population of 900, so the amount of civilian shipping it can maintain and overhaul, let alone build, would be severely limited (Cue Frequently Discussed Topic #14, "How can you run a Class A starport with a population level of 2 and how would you make enough money to keep in the black?"). Jae Tellona has a population of 900,000, so it might just be able to swing it. It'd be a "company world" for sure. Which actually would fit well enough with its captive government.

What's the source of that quote?


Hans
 
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