New Rome

[Adam Dray]

Hit me with questions and ideas and problems.


I want to build a totally brand new, low TL universe. Earth has only recently acquired jump-2 and most jump-capable ships are military, not commercial, though that's changing at the jump-1 level.

Earth finds that most systems have habitable planets with intelligent life, and a lot of it is human (homo sapiens sapiens X, but not necessarily identical to Earth humans), suggesting some kind of ancient "seeder" civilization or perhaps a catastrophe that destroyed people's ability to travel FTL.

The U.S. is a second-tier player by the time the Earth reaches jump-1. The EU is stronger and leads the way. To deal with far-flung colonies and slow communication, they fall back on old Roman ideas, even adopting Latin military ranks and such, so you have legionaries, optios, centurions, tribunes, legates, dux, imperators, and the like.

Most of the civilizations Earth encounters are relatively primitive and are conquered easily. Like the old Rome, this New Rome brings the wonders of technology, culture, and law to the backwater barbarians. There is no Prime Directive here. Whole worlds are made "client states" of Earth. Governors are installed to run the worlds from well-guarded palaces planetside. The people are exploited commercially, of course. Trade routes, serviced by the military-run Merchant fleets (and rarely purely commercial vessels), move goods around, mostly enhancing Earth's wealth.

Earth encounters a few jump-1 civilizations that can't reach Earth yet. Wars erupt but Earth is winning them--for now.


I'll probably run this with Mongoose Traveller. I've never actually run a Traveller game, but I've played CT a couple times and I've a veteran GM of other games since 1979. I had CT back in the day but it didn't really grab me then. Now I'm all over it.

The first "campaign" (what do you call a series of sessions in Traveller?) will focus on a couple centurions who are ordered to conquer a really backward world and rule it until the real governor arrives--and that could take a year. Out on the edge of explored space, the military is stretched thin, especially in starships, so low-ranking officers get assigned jobs that would have been a legate's a decade ago. Most of the characters will be military (maybe with prior occupations but the last occupations have to be mil), though one or two characters might be civilian support (scientists or low-ranking senators) or loyal converts from the local citizenry. Play will be focused in one or two systems rather than a star-crawl.

 

[Adam Dray]

Oh, meant to ask:

I assume the "Romans in Space" thing has been done before. I assumed it was done extensively, but I haven't really found it in web searches.

Is "Romans in Space" part of the existing Traveller universe, perhaps as a subsector somewhere? Are there any notable OTUs that did this kind of thing? Anyone have links or product names?

 

[flykiller]

you intend to start a play-by-post game? where would you hold it?

the ancient romans had a dog-eat-dog survival-of-the-fittest view of life. when they soundly defeated the world-dominating greeks using roman methods and roman arms they came to the belief that they were destined by the gods to rule the earth. this belief and the evident success of their legion system and the loot they proudly delivered to rome, coupled with their realization that they could and would be defeated if they ever became weak, was what motivated them and drove them onward.

what motivates your romans? because loot and money alone won't do it.

 

[Emperor Valdamir]

THere was a game series from FASA back in the late 80's called "Renegade Legion", in which the back story involved a new, Terran empire modeled on ancient Rome.

Link; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renegade_Legion

 

[rancke]

David Drake's Leary & Mundy series takes place in an interstellar state whose politics are modelled over that of the late Roman Republic but is defended not by legions but by the 18th Century Royal Navy In Space. A curious combination, but it works.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

If I may make a suggestion:

Forget about the U.S. and the E.U. It's a bit of a stretch trying to paint the EU as evolving into a new Rome. Take the leap and call it an alternate universe where Rome was never divided among two emperors and never fell. Or, if you like the New Rome motif, declare that Justinian succeeded in his attempt to retake the fallen West and that as a result a Roman Renaissance occurred in place of the dark ages, with Rome battling and then absorbing the Muslim caliphates, going west and discovering the Americas, absorbing the Inca and Aztec, manifest destiny-ing their way across North America - er, New Atlantis - and making a Roman lake of the Atlantic ocean, eventually conquering and colonizing India and laying China prostrate with opium, and turning eyes skyward when they finally ran out of lands to conquer.

If you need a second-rate U.S. in the background, then have New Atlantis do their own American Revolution and evolve thereafter more or less like the U.S. did.

Supplement 10, the Solomani Rim, should be handy. You can use the star maps and ditch or modify the world codes as you see fit. jump-1 just means they needed to carry enough fuel for two consecutive jumps to make the leaps in that sector.

 

[mike wightman]

Establishing a new Roman empire in space is easy.

To become the power player in space the ESA has to see of threats from the USA,Russia, China and India.

The advantage that the ESA gains is they invented jump 1, and discovered stuff on nearby worlds that they could use to gain dominance.

A space peace treaty is signed in Rome, the Vatican city would be even better.

For a decade or two the popular media uses the treaty of rome lots when discussing ESA until the popular view is that ESA is the new Rome.

ESA leaders then manipulate this and deliberately resurrect the ancient roman motif you are after?

It's quite an interesting set up.

Are the USA, Russia, China and India trying to establish their own empires or are they very much provinces of new rome? Is there much rebellion on Earth in these former countries?

Did new rome start as a republic then change or is it still a republic (you know, the sort of republic where only the very rich political elite get a vote . Is there an emperor or is that all still to come?

 

[Golan2072]

A New Rome needs new Barbarian Hordes (or maybe even a New Carthage?) as a constant threat to keep the legions against. Some Barbarians may be Romanized eventually, but there should always be "uncivilized" (in Roman eyes, that is) cultures at the empire's borders.

 

[Dagrill]

A space peace treaty is signed in Rome, the Vatican city would be even better.

For a decade or two the popular media uses the treaty of rome lots when discussing ESA until the popular view is that ESA is the new Rome.

Excellent idea, maybe even the New Holy Roman Empire, with other religions persecuted (fed to the lion like beasts from space).

Did new rome start as a republic then change or is it still a republic (you know, the sort of republic where only the very rich political elite get a vote . Is there an emperor or is that all still to come?

I like this as well, a 'senatorial' class that make all the decisions, but have to stand for election to office every 7 years.

Kind Regards

David

 

[robject]

If I may make a suggestion:

Forget about the U.S. and the E.U. [...] Take the leap and call it an alternate universe where Rome was never divided among two emperors and never fell. Or, [...]

If you need a second-rate U.S. in the background, then have New Atlantis do their own American Revolution and evolve thereafter more or less like the U.S. did.

[...]

I'll echo Carlo's suggestion, and go one further:

Go the Robert E. Howard role and make a familiar-but-plainly-not-the-same Earth. Rename the nations to sort-of resemble ours, but make them different enough to get what you want.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

other options for a Romanesque new nation:

the EU falls into a bitter and major, but conventional, civil war between the german led eastern europeans and the france led western europeans. the fighting devistates france and germany, and Italy assumes control of the "romantic" nations, and leads them to victory....at the price of restoring the Roman Republic, or possibly the Principate*. this leaves China, russia and the US around to allow for other terran based rivals.

Excellent idea, maybe even the New Holy Roman Empire, with other religions persecuted (fed to the lion like beasts from space)

interesting. who would be the Electors? the national leaders of the earth nations, i'd guess, and maybe a few for the colonies. that way, they could be given "equal" representation, in relation to their size, but still be faced with a legislature that is heavily earth biased.

if you wanted to go down the religious persecution route, you could also have the colonies acting as safe havens for the minority religions, protected under a resurrected Cuius regio, eius religio**, which would add another layer of fermenting rebellion to the colonies.

I assume the "Romans in Space" thing has been done before. I assumed it was done extensively, but I haven't really found it in web searches.

Is "Romans in Space" part of the existing Traveller universe, perhaps as a subsector somewhere? Are there any notable OTUs that did this kind of thing? Anyone have links or product names?

I can only assume that a lot of sci-fi writers have used the roman empire for inspiration, but it's hard to be sure, since so much of the English language words for imperial institutions are descended form Latin, anyway. "imperium", "senate", "Caesar/Kaiser/Tsar", "patrician", "prince" the list goes on. its hard to have a "empire" in any work of fiction without drawing at least something form the roman tradition, because their are only really three traditions for empires (Roman, Holy Roman and Chinese.)

as far as i know, no direct, clear cut "Roman Empire IN SPACE!!" exists in the offical traveller universe (strictly speaking, their is only one OTU, with many ATUs. however, the exact nature of that OTU is a matter of lively debate.)


however, i am most intrested in how you play this out. I might even be inspired to make a few TL 10 and TL 11 starships for the setting.



* Pincipate= early empire, the "classic" roman empire, of Augustus, Trajan and Hadrian. note, they did not call themselves emperors, but "princeps" or "first amoung equals"

** Cuius regio, eius religio= "whose relm, his faith".

 

[Carlobrand]

other options for a Romanesque new nation:

the EU falls into a bitter and major, but conventional, civil war between the german led eastern europeans and the france led western Europeans ...".

You could demote the U.S. to second-class status and leave the E.U. with a Latin flavor by drawing on the current political scene - Russia heads west, hits Germany hard, the US commits force in compliance with its NATO responsibilities, the Franco-German theater gets beat up by tactical and theater nukes in the ensuing war while the southern region gets passed, the U.S. and Russia do a limited strategic nuke exchange that leaves both in bad shape and ends the war; when the dust settles Italy, Spain and Greece are the only relatively intact economies in the region, and Italy takes point in rebuilding the shattered north while Russia and the U.S. tend to their own wounds.

 

[aramis]

There are several other potential methods.

1) a theocracy arising from certain churches
1.1) The Catholic Church (The papacy is centered in Rome)
1.2) The Russian Orthodox (Who claim the title of "the New Rome" or "Third Rome")
2) A neopagan group taking over either government or a megacorporate structure
3) A megacorporate structure centered in Rome using "generous" loans to central banks to "take over," eventually using it as justification to declare a an Empire.

 

[SnichtheWalrus]

Fourth Rome

The Leary and Mundy series was a mix of British and Roman empires I believe. As for the Imperial History how about European develop Jump Drive and start exploring. Various companies begin to establish trading posts/factories on planets with natives. The companies begin to supply the local ruler in which ever area the posts are in with technology/weapons and money. Missionaries of various stripes begin to arrive along with the usual grab bag of idealists, criminals, exiles and glory hounds.

Meanwhile on Earth the EU begins to use its new found wealth to win friends and influence people. They sell jump drives and information on the new planets to friendly governments in return for trade treaties and intelligence. Some of the other powers begin to develop ships and fund privateers/free traders to find and explore other planets. In the EU, the Parliament is becoming run by corporate/private interests who fund election campaigns. A unity party is gaining strength calling for Earth to place interstellar trade under its watchful eye.

A candidate becomes Prime Minister with corporate/military backing. He soon is elected as the Protector and First Citizen of Earth...

 

[BlackBat242]

as far as i know, no direct, clear cut "Roman Empire IN SPACE!!" exists in the offical traveller universe (strictly speaking, their is only one OTU, with many ATUs. however, the exact nature of that OTU is a matter of lively debate.)

Exactly.

Your thread tag claims that this thread is about the Official Traveller Universe (OTU) only - but it is very clearly about an Alternate Traveller Universe (ATU)!

 

[aramis]

[m;]Prefix removed as essentially irrelevant to the OP's questions[/m;]

 

[SpaceBadger]

If you really want to make it the Roman Empire in Space, you could go the Space:1889 route to an even more extreme degree and write some alternate history.

Two examples spring to mind immediately:

1) Around 100 AD, alien visitors land on Earth in Roman territory. The Romans learn to control the alien ship, and the off-Earth empire grows from that point (see Poul Anderson's The High Crusade).

2) Around 100 AD, some mystical means of interplanetary travel is discovered. The Romans first conquer the ancient civilizations of Mars (again crib from Space:1889), then slaughter and enslave the lizard-men of Venus. Further refinements of the technique eventually allow travel to other star systems.

 

[rancke]

2) Around 100 AD, some mystical means of interplanetary travel is discovered. The Romans first conquer the ancient civilizations of Mars (again crib from Space:1889), then slaughter and enslave the lizard-men of Venus. Further refinements of the technique eventually allow travel to other star systems.

That's a lovely idea. Keep in mind that the Romans were culturalists, not racists. The Martians could become the new Greeks, with the Romans impressed by their arts and seeing themselves as the protectors of the ancient Martian culture (The big trouble here is to figure out which High Martian cultural traits the Romans could adopt without becoming something we wouldn't recognize as ancient Romans). The Venusians could become valued auxiliary troops (carrying massive crossbows, perhaps?).


Hans

 

[Adam Dray]

First of all, thank you for the replies and enthusiastic interest. There's nothing worse than sharing an idea and getting the "Internet nod."

Second, yes, this is clearly a Alternate Traveler Universe. I have no idea why I put OTU in the subject.


I plan to run this at my home in Maryland. If you're in the Baltimore area and want to play, contact me. I have no plans to run this online as a PbP or videochat game.

I've started a website to record my ideas. It's very fresh (and rather empty) at the moment but I expect it to grow as my setting does. Check out New Rome on Obsidian Portal.

The only real content on my wiki right now is my musings on FTL technology. The main point to take from that is jump drives work differently than in the OTU. They require use of artificial wormholes that an alien technology left behind. Because these wormholes require the gravity and energy of stars to work, they are all actually partially inside stars. Thus, Earth has named them sungates. Each sungate is paired with one other nearby star.

The take-away there is that jump-1 really limits a starcraft, since it can't just "carry enough fuel for two consecutive jumps," as Carlobrand points out is possible in the OTU. The recent discovery of a second set of jump-2 gates deeper inside stars opens up new exploration for mankind.


I don't want to build a "Rome never fell" setting. I'd rather avoid alternate history and pursue an alternate future. I don't want my people to be actual Romans. They're modern Europeans and Americans, all united under a common banner that happens to be nostalgic for old Roman ideas, especially when those ideas prove useful for managing far-flung colonies.

The sequence of events that get to that point include:

1. increase tension between world powers in the 21st C
2. fuel shortages and resulting economic pressures
3. a global war (military, economic, and cyber--but not nuclear)
4. eventual invention of the hackdrive, which revolutionizes planetary war
5. a rise of UN power under a charismatic UN general
6. that UN general siezing power and using common enemies to unite the UN member states under a real UN government
7. quickly mopping up the dissent using new technology

I realize it can't be as neat and clean as that, but I'm summarizing, and IMTU it's old history and doesn't matter that much.

After that point, discovery of sungates comes pretty quickly, and mankind stays mostly united under the UN flag for the purpose of space exploration. The neo-Roman ideas haven't really emerged yet but when the UN HQ moves to Rome in the early-22nd C., old Roman Legion imagery is used as part of the advertising and recruiting campaign that romanticizes space exploration. Leaders exploit that imagery further as time goes on.

what motivates your romans? because loot and money alone won't do it.

The original electorate in my charismatic general's first UN Senate are like the founding men of old Rome. Their families are now the senatorial class, and they are motivated by the usual things: power, money, reputation, exploration & knowledge, and duty to the state. As New Rome spreads its eagle wings and reaches out to the stars, it finds planets with less advanced humanlike races. The general feeling is that the moral thing to do is to raise them up and help them, even if it means changing their culture and government. Planets are forcibly "Romanized."

I think you might be underestimating the allure of "You can govern your own planet." I think a lot of senators would jump at the chance to discover, colonize, and govern an entire planet. I also think that in the highest echelons of the New Roman leadership, they'd be recruiting senators with motivations just like that.

Did new rome start as a republic then change or is it still a republic (you know, the sort of republic where only the very rich political elite get a vote . Is there an emperor or is that all still to come?

It's still a Republic. There's a hereditary senatorial class, plus elected tribunes. As in old Rome (and I tend to ignore anything after Julius Caesar), senators pursue a cursus honorum that includes military duty.

I'm sure that there will be a power-hungry senator or general who wants to be named Dictator for Life (or Emperor). I'll leave that for later.

A New Rome needs new Barbarian Hordes (or maybe even a New Carthage?) as a constant threat to keep the legions against. Some Barbarians may be Romanized eventually, but there should always be "uncivilized" (in Roman eyes, that is) cultures at the empire's borders.

New Rome is just now coming out of its golden age where space exploration and even conquering planets has been easy. With the advent of jump-2, they're reaching new pockets of space and discovering other jump-capable civilizations. These don't surrender quickly. Some are as aggressive as Earth, so there are your barbarian hordes.

There are several other potential methods.

1) a theocracy arising from certain churches
1.1) The Catholic Church (The papacy is centered in Rome)
1.2) The Russian Orthodox (Who claim the title of "the New Rome" or "Third Rome")
2) A neopagan group taking over either government or a megacorporate structure
3) A megacorporate structure centered in Rome using "generous" loans to central banks to "take over," eventually using it as justification to declare a an Empire.

I'm going to shy away from the theocracies. That's not the flavor I want for the universe. I'm thinking more of a power cult adopting Roman symbology, much as the Nazis adopted/subverted Aryan and Swastika symbols for their movement. But it's a power cult backed with insidious mimetic strength, as Jo Citizen starts buying into the imagery.

Combine that with the aforementioned UN HQ "move to Rome," possibly forced by some kind of physical attack on NYC. I assume that even under a UN with government power, there will be plenty of factions (and states) that resist the yoke of New Rome.


I need to nail down the basics of the alternate future events, but they don't have to be perfect. Those events are color for the small-scale events for the campaign revolving around a small, distant cluster of systems.

 

[McPerth]

I think you might be underestimating the allure of "You can govern your own planet." I think a lot of senators would jump at the chance to discover, colonize, and govern an entire planet. I also think that in the highest echelons of the New Roman leadership, they'd be recruiting senators with motivations just like that.

OTOH, while being a governor of a newly conquered (or developed) province was very alluring for the senators, it also was a dangerous step, as it removed you from Rome, and one usually used to remove someone from the power decision circles.

IDK if you ever player Republic of Rome (AH board game that I advise you to look at as another source of inspiration), but there is quite well represented the sending someone that is becoming too influential in the senate as a governor for any province, as it removes him from the senate (and neutralizes his votes). Just be careful not to send him to a too military powerful province (as it happened with Julius Caesar). I guess this could also happen in your Rome in Space game.