New Rome

[rancke]

OTOH, while being a governor of a newly conquered (or developed) province was very alluring for the senators, it also was a dangerous step, as it removed you from Rome, and one usually used to remove someone from the power decision circles.

IDK if you ever player Republic of Rome (AH board game that I advise you to look at as another source of inspiration), but there is quite well rpresented the sending someone that is becoming too influential in the senate as a governor for any province, as it removes him from the senate (and neutralizes his votes). Just be careful not to send him to a too military powerful province (as it happened with Julius Caesar). I guess this could also happen in your Rome in Space game.

There are some dynamics that applied to Ancient Rome that may be difficult to emulate on the interstellar scale.

First of all, the neighbors that Rome fought were in at least some cases genuine threats towards Rome. It's true that towards the end of the Republic Roman generals vied for the chance to fight rich neighbors, but both Marius and Julius Caesar faced foes that had the Senate shaking in their sandals.

Secondly, those foes were capable of putting up a good defense even when they were just being invaded for their loot value. Many a Roman legion had their heads handed to them.

And this continued into the Principate, enemies who were threats and enemies who could defend themselves. The German tribes and the Persians were constant problems.

So you're going to need enemies who can field combat starships in fair numbers in order to get similar dynamics.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

There are some dynamics that applied to Ancient Rome that may be difficult to emulate on the interstellar scale.

First of all, the neighbors that Rome fought were in at least some cases genuine threats towards Rome. It's true that towards the end of the Republic Roman generals vied for the chance to fight rich neighbors, but both Marius and Julius Caesar faced foes that had the Senate shaking in their sandals.

Secondly, those foes were capable of putting up a good defense even when they were just being invaded for their loot value. Many a Roman legion had their heads handed to them.

And this continued into the Principate, enemies who were threats and enemies who could defend themselves. The German tribes and the Persians were constant problems.

So you're going to need enemies who can field combat starships in fair numbers in order to get similar dynamics.

I agree with you about this lack of external dangers would make the setting quite different (unless those dangers exist but the OP didn't tell us).

What I wanted to point in my post was that being named governor of a newly discovered/settled/conquered planet, while very alluring, is also dangerous (from a political POV, not from the military one), so not every senator will look for it.

 

[Adam Dray]

I think none of this has been particularly easy for the New Romans. Even when they encountered civilizations with vastly inferior technology, they had to fight a ground war at some point, and that's never fun.

A lot of the worlds New Rome encountered were TL 6-8. They have ballistic weapons, jet aircraft, satellites, and nukes.

Also, most of these worlds aren't low-population star colonies. They're isolated, independent worlds with populations numbering in the hundreds of millions or billions (P=7-9). Bringing them under New Roman rule isn't simple.

Until recently, none of these systems have been a threat to Earth as none of them had jump-1 technology. As Earth explored further with jump-2 drives, they're discovering jump-1 civilizations. So far, New Rome has been pretty careful about controlling who has access to hackdrives, but trade pressures are changing that. Once a system can create its own fleet, then we can have real enemies.

 

[Adam Dray]

I'd love some feedback on the tech side of this. Check out the FTL link on my New Rome wiki.

 

[flykiller]

OTOH, while being a governor of a newly conquered (or developed) province was very alluring for the senators, it also was a dangerous step, as it removed you from Rome, and one usually used to remove someone from the power decision circles.

the most power-hungry and ruthless senators would remain in the senate near the source of greatest power. the more idealistic and moral senators would volunteer or be volunteered to the more outrim colonies. this is a certain scenario for internal rot and conflict with the (perhaps more vital) outer colonies. a senator may have to return to set rome arights ....

 

[Adam Dray]

The most power-hungry senators would be aiming for the Consul position, and that requires a successful track along the cursus honorum, and that starts with ten years of military service. After serving in the military, they'd return to Earth and continue political service in relative safety.

 

[McPerth]

the most power-hungry and ruthless senators would remain in the senate near the source of greatest power. the more idealistic and moral senators would volunteer or be volunteered to the more outrim colonies. this is a certain scenario for internal rot and conflict with the (perhaps more vital) outer colonies. a senator may have to return to set rome arights ....

The opposite might also happen, when the most power hungry senators are sent to a colony as governors to take them off the power circles or the most ruthless of them want a post where they can be so without the strict control the capital has (either by the mob or by the censor, or equivalent).

Caesar being sent to Gallia is an example of the first case (even if it backfired), while Crasus asking for the East as his domain in the Triumvirate would be the second one.

 

[Adam Dray]

Governors also have a huge opportunity to accumulate vast wealth.

 

[rancke]

I think none of this has been particularly easy for the New Romans. Even when they encountered civilizations with vastly inferior technology, they had to fight a ground war at some point, and that's never fun.

Against vastly inferior civilizations the Pizzaro Method would work: Use native troops. Described in an SF context by Jerry Pournelle in King David's Spaceship. Pick one side in the local squabbles and help them win over their neighbours.

That would work even against tech levels much higher than vastly inferior. A bit inferior would be enough.

A lot of the worlds New Rome encountered were TL 6-8. They have ballistic weapons, jet aircraft, satellites, and nukes.

Which are at a huge disadvantage against people sitting in orbit.

Also, most of these worlds aren't low-population star colonies. They're isolated, independent worlds with populations numbering in the hundreds of millions or billions (P=7-9). Bringing them under New Roman rule isn't simple.

But it's a vastly different dynamic than defending against barbarian invaders.


Hans

 

[robject]

I don't want to build a "Rome never fell" setting. I'd rather avoid alternate history and pursue an alternate future. I don't want my people to be actual Romans. They're modern Europeans and Americans, all united under a common banner that happens to be nostalgic for old Roman ideas, especially when those ideas prove useful for managing far-flung colonies.

The sequence of events that get to that point include:

1. increase tension between world powers in the 21st C
2. fuel shortages and resulting economic pressures
3. a global war (military, economic, and cyber--but not nuclear)
4. eventual invention of the hackdrive, which revolutionizes planetary war
5. a rise of UN power under a charismatic UN general
6. that UN general siezing power and using common enemies to unite the UN member states under a real UN government
7. quickly mopping up the dissent using new technology

Ah - this sounds not unlike a CoDominium setting (Niven and Pournelle, Mote in God's Eye, King David's Space Ship, etc)?


Hackdrive sounds a bit like Stutterwarp in effect (if not in description/rationale).


But, the yoking of shields + hackdrive + sungate sounds pretty cool!

 

[robject]

Rome: 889 or Pax Novum

Rome: 889 or Pax Novum is another ATU I'd like to see in its own thread.

[FONT=arial,helvetica]1) Around 100 AD, alien visitors land on Earth in Roman territory. The Romans learn to control the alien ship, and the off-Earth empire grows from that point (see Poul Anderson's The High Crusade).
[/FONT]

[...] Martians could become the new Greeks, with the Romans impressed by their arts and seeing themselves as the protectors of the ancient Martian culture [...] The Venusians could become valued auxiliary troops [...]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]A New Rome needs new Barbarian Hordes (or maybe even a New Carthage?) as a constant threat to keep the legions against. Some Barbarians may be Romanized eventually, but there should always be "uncivilized" (in Roman eyes, that is) cultures at the empire's borders.[/FONT]

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I think none of this has been particularly easy for the New Romans. Even when they encountered civilizations with vastly inferior technology, they had to fight a ground war at some point, and that's never fun.

A lot of the worlds New Rome encountered were TL 6-8. They have ballistic weapons, jet aircraft, satellites, and nukes.

Also, most of these worlds aren't low-population star colonies. They're isolated, independent worlds with populations numbering in the hundreds of millions or billions (P=7-9). Bringing them under New Roman rule isn't simple.

Until recently, none of these systems have been a threat to Earth as none of them had jump-1 technology. As Earth explored further with jump-2 drives, they're discovering jump-1 civilizations. So far, New Rome has been pretty careful about controlling who has access to hackdrives, but trade pressures are changing that. Once a system can create its own fleet, then we can have real enemies.

It's never fun, but with New Romans' tech advantage, and orbital supremacy, it's much eaiser.

First off, you have the overwatch on the whole planet, and can deny that to the defenders. Any satalite based systems (GPS, mobile long range comms, etc) they have would be destroyed and renderd useless, while Nova Romae* would still have these tools.


Second, you have the Rods from God. A 50 ton Ortillary bay** is TL 9, and means a even a small ship, of only 2 or 3 hundred tons, can provide dozens of "clean" kinetic strikes against a defending army. Damage on personal/vehicle scale is 8d6 x 50, or 400-2400 points. Blast raduis is not stated, but the flavour text discribes the impact as "like a tactical nucular strike". Make of that what you wil).

With these, you could stop a defending army form concentrating thier ground forces, since you could see them doing so and strike at them with impunity.

And that's before the advanatages of things like grav-mobile ground troops, ultra-fast orbit redeployments (anywhere on an earth sized planet in two hours, form wheels up to wheels down), vastly superior EW systems, and other benefits of being several tech levels above the defenders come into play.

Winning the conventional war is going to be relatively easy. The hard part is going to be finding enough infantry to secure the place afterwards. I would expect that Nova Roma uses a lot more local Auxilia that Old Rome (which had about a 50/50 mix for most of it's life).



anyway, after reading your site, i have a few questions:

1) you say the sungates are in linked pairs? does this mean that some stars have more than one sungate in them? I'd assume so, if only because otherwise the only link you would have would be to Alpha Centauri

2) it's not really relevant, as your using your own system of FTL travel, but are you aware that, normally, J-1 drives cannot cross the distance between Alpha Centauri and Sol (aprox 1.3 parsecs)?

3) Do your portal travelling J drives still require the very large fuel consumption that characterises standard Traveller J drives. It will have a major effect on ship design if starships could reclaim 10-20% of thier hull volume from the fuel tanks needed in standard traveller.

4) If Jump capable hackdrive ships are scarce and expensive, have you considered going down the Jumpship/Dropship route that the Battletech/Mechwarrior games use? the Jumpships spend all their time making jumps between systems, where they drop off attached cargo and combat ships which then travel to the planet. It would mean the Republic could allow private and colonial spaceships while still controlling the means of interstellar travel (and thus rebellion).



*I think thats the correct latin for new rome, unless google translate is lying to me

**this kinda assumes you have mongoose version High Guard, the naval themed supplement for Traveller. if you don't i would suggest getting it, it's got quite a few new components that give options in ship design, espically for a TL-11 or lower setting

 

[Adam Dray]

Ah - this sounds not unlike a CoDominium setting (Niven and Pournelle, Mote in God's Eye, King David's Space Ship, etc)?

Hackdrive sounds a bit like Stutterwarp in effect (if not in description/rationale).

But, the yoking of shields + hackdrive + sungate sounds pretty cool!

My hackdrive is definitely similar to a stutterwarp drive. I'll have to check out CoDominium. One more book to add to my TBR list.


The sungate idea forces some interesting changes from OTU:

1. Starships travel toward the sun to jump, not 100d away.
2. This makes gas giants less important. They're just not "on the way" to the jump point anymore.
3. A jump-1 ship can't just take more fuel to get to a jump-2 location.
4. This creates a distinct nodal map with strategic pinch points.
5. The destinations of the gates are fixed, so even if a system is less than a parsec away, you can't easily get there without a sungate.
6. It's all about shields and cooling, and less about fuel. A ship has to tolerate temperatures of 4000K or more.

 

[robject]

The sungate idea forces some interesting changes from OTU:

1. Starships travel toward the sun to jump, not 100d away.
2. This makes gas giants less important. They're just not "on the way" to the jump point anymore.
3. A jump-1 ship can't just take more fuel to get to a jump-2 location.
4. This creates a distinct nodal map with strategic pinch points.
5. The destinations of the gates are fixed, so even if a system is less than a parsec away, you can't easily get there without a sungate.
6. It's all about shields and cooling, and less about fuel. A ship has to tolerate temperatures of 4000K or more.

IIRC, 'sundiving' was also one of the key points to DGP's "AI" setting concept.

 

[mike wightman]

Daft question time - where are the gates in relation to the sun?

The corona of the sun, the outer plasma "atmosphere", is 5,000,000K.

The surface of the sun is about 6,000K.

If ship shields can take this is there any way ship weapons can damage each other?

 

[Adam Dray]

It's never fun, but with New Romans' tech advantage, and orbital supremacy, it's much eaiser.

You make many very good points. I have a tendency when world-building to avoid the messy conflicts, and one reason I like to bounce ideas off other people is to get the messiness back in.

I suspect Earth would not want to "nuke 'em from orbit," as that tends to muddy up the place you want to colonize and industrialize with radiation. Neutron bombs might be used to "set an example" and cow a populace to submission. Note this strategy works does not work in pre-industrialized civilizations because they can't communicate quickly to find out about the threat.

Winning the conventional war is going to be relatively easy. The hard part is going to be finding enough infantry to secure the place afterwards. I would expect that Nova Roma uses a lot more local Auxilia that Old Rome (which had about a 50/50 mix for most of it's life).

Yes, I suspect you're right. I believe that Earth recruits or conscripts soldiers from one colony and takes them to the next, with an offer of full citizenship to the survivors.

1) you say the sungates are in linked pairs? does this mean that some stars have more than one sungate in them? I'd assume so, if only because otherwise the only link you would have would be to Alpha Centauri

Yes, most stars have more than one sungate, or it'd be a dead-end. Many have three or more.

2) it's not really relevant, as your using your own system of FTL travel, but are you aware that, normally, J-1 drives cannot cross the distance between Alpha Centauri and Sol (aprox 1.3 parsecs)?

Yes, I'm aware. I found that fact inconvenient. I'm defining a jump-1 drive as capable of reaching sungates that make jumps up to about 5 ly (1.5pc).

There's no reason that the jump-1 sungates couldn't go 25000pc and emerge somewhere on the other side of the galaxy, assuming the Seeder built that gate (though it can't).

3) Do your portal travelling J drives still require the very large fuel consumption that characterises standard Traveller J drives. It will have a major effect on ship design if starships could reclaim 10-20% of thier hull volume from the fuel tanks needed in standard traveller.

The final jump requires no fuel. Just fly into the gate. Really, leaving from Earth, your fuel is spent traveling to the photosphere of the Sun, so a distance of about 150,000 km, (give or take, depending on which side of the Sun the gate is on).

Hackdrives ignore external gravity, so you don't have to spend fuel to avoid falling into the Sun. I assume hackdrives are backed by a nuclear power plant of some kind, but they're not the main consumers of energy; the shields are.

4) If Jump capable hackdrive ships are scarce and expensive, have you considered going down the Jumpship/Dropship route that the Battletech/Mechwarrior games use? the Jumpships spend all their time making jumps between systems, where they drop off attached cargo and combat ships which then travel to the planet. It would mean the Republic could allow private and colonial spaceships while still controlling the means of interstellar travel (and thus rebellion).

It's the hackdrive that allows quick interplanetary travel, too. Sure, a dropship could unload a bunch of inexpensive torchships, but I think that hackdrives are probably more efficient in a lot of ways. Mainly, since they ignore gravity, they enjoy a huge fuel-energy-efficiency. Remember, the hackdrive isn't what gets people from star to star, exactly. It's the sungate. The hackdrive is what gets people from the planet to the sungate quickly. The p-shields make the sungate accessible without disintegration. The sungate is just a wormhole.

Maybe some other civilizations have torchships and p-shields, but no hackdrives, so they take a long time getting to a sungate but can make the jumps. Hackdrive ships are infinitely faster and more maneuverable than torchships, of course, and would eat them alive in combat.

As an aside, "fighters" aren't common IMTU, because fighters are stupid.
[/quote]

*I think ["Nova Romae" is] the correct latin for new rome, unless google translate is lying to me

It's lying. Nova Roma is the singular. Novae Romae is the plural. Adjectives have to agree with their nouns, and both are 1st declension. (I took three years of Latin in high school.)

**this kinda assumes you have mongoose version High Guard, the naval themed supplement for Traveller. if you don't i would suggest getting it, it's got quite a few new components that give options in ship design, espically for a TL-11 or lower setting

I think I have the PDF. If not, I'll pick it up. I'll probably tweak prices but leave the ship design rules alone, except for the obvious mods needed for MTU.

 

[Adam Dray]

Daft question time - where are the gates in relation to the sun?

The corona of the sun, the outer plasma "atmosphere", is 5,000,000K.

The surface of the sun is about 6,000K.

If ship shields can take this is there any way ship weapons can damage each other?

The gates are in the photosphere, so in the 5,000K-6,000K temperature range for our Sun. "Jump-1" gates tend to be in the shallow part. "Jump-2" gates were discovered deeper in, where the temperatures are hotter, presumably to limit who can use them. New Rome suspects there are gates to more distant stars even deeper, but they don't have the shield technology to discover them.

I've been thinking about the weapons questions, and here's what I've come to: Energy weapons are basically useless against a ship with its shields fully up. That ship also can't see anyone; it's essentially blind.

However, P-shields react in exciting ways when they come into contact with other p-shields. The two shields disrupt each other and can cause catastrophic damage to the spacetime inside the shield. Missiles are the main way to deliver an explosive p-shield to a shielded vessel. Generally, missiles pack a smaller shield than a starship, so it's not instant obliteration (roll for damage as usual).

These missiles are standard reaction-mass guided missiles, but with a p-shield warhead. Hackdrives aren't small enough to put into missile-sized ships yet. Even hackdrones are pretty large things. I'm sure a battleship might consider having a few hackdrive missiles, though, because you're protecting a very expensive investment. At that point, though, you don't need a separate weapon; you just remote-control one of your small destroyer craft as an interceptor and have it ram.

 

[mike wightman]

How do the ships get through the 5,000,000K corona to get to the 6000K photosphere without evaporating?

 

[Adam Dray]

Ack! I missed the fact that the corona is much hotter than the sun's "inside." I just assumed it got cooler as you got more distant from the core. My bad.

Okay, help me fix this!

What increases as you get closer to the sun's center? Gravity. Solar wind storms? Maybe the shields protect the craft from "gravitic shear" or something similar. The deeper you go, the stronger the shields must be to ignore the gravity well.

I could also say that sungates are covered by the corona, but sometimes coronal holes allow access to them. I'm not sure I want to limit sungates that much though.

Another tack I could take is that the ship just isn't in the heat that long. 1 AU is about 500 light-seconds. The corona is about 5M km thick, or 17 light-seconds. If you're traveling at 10c, you only have to endure the coronal temperatures for 1.7 seconds. Maybe shields can handle that.

On the other hand, a 10c ship could make a 1.5pc (~4.9 ly) jump in six months. I'm not sure I want to make standard FTL travel that easy. Maybe I'll keep hackdrive speeds way under 1c for now, but to make a jump take one week, that requires 1/1200c speeds, which is pretty slow--but still possibly faster than torchship travel through a jump point to the planet on the other side, due to maneuvering.

I dunno. Suggestions?

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I suspect Earth would not want to "nuke 'em from orbit," as that tends to muddy up the place you want to colonize and industrialize with radiation. Neutron bombs might be used to "set an example" and cow a populace to submission. Note this strategy works does not work in pre-industrialized civilizations because they can't communicate quickly to find out about the threat.

Hence, why i suggested orbital Kinetic strikes. An object moving fast enough can easily generate a kiloton or megaton scale impact, but with any of the fallout of nucular weaponry. you can get the army shattering bang, but with less colatteral damage and no onging pollution. I aggree dropping one near a city isn't going to endear you to the locals, though.

and who says you can't use it to impress low tech planets? you just need to repeat the demonstration a few times, that's all. hell, a very high altidude event is going to be visable across whole continents.

plus, if thier of a low enough tech level that they don't have a functioning planetary communications network (not even telegraph), then your grav-tank riding Legionnares armed with Lasguns aren't really going to break a sweat if they need to kill them the old fashioned way.

Yes, I suspect you're right. I believe that Earth recruits or conscripts soldiers from one colony and takes them to the next, with an offer of full citizenship to the survivors.

A classic tactic, with many historical precedants.

Thier is a old roman fort, not far form where i live, in the north of england, that historical documentation says was manned mainly by numidian auxilia (all i can say about a bunch of north african tribesmen being sent to patrol the Lake District or Hardrians Wall is: those poor buggers...)

just bear in mind conscripts are mainly concerned with Getting Through My Time Unhurt, rather than actually doing the job they were conscripted for. it will be somthing the players will need to remember if they are having to rely on conscripted Auxilia for muscle.

It's the hackdrive that allows quick interplanetary travel, too. Sure, a dropship could unload a bunch of inexpensive torchships, but I think that hackdrives are probably more efficient in a lot of ways. Mainly, since they ignore gravity, they enjoy a huge fuel-energy-efficiency. Remember, the hackdrive isn't what gets people from star to star, exactly. It's the sungate. The hackdrive is what gets people from the planet to the sungate quickly. The p-shields make the sungate accessible without disintegration. The sungate is just a wormhole.

Maybe some other civilizations have torchships and p-shields, but no hackdrives, so they take a long time getting to a sungate but can make the jumps. Hackdrive ships are infinitely faster and more maneuverable than torchships, of course, and would eat them alive in combat

have you removed traveller jump drives entirely, then? Again, that would change the standard assumptions quite a lot. if ships effectivly only need to carry P plant fuel, it means they are much more capable than the standard traveller designs.

then again, by standard MgT rules, Nova Roma can only build ships up to 50,000 Dtons anyway, due to tech-imposed computer limits. Nova Roma's largest battleship would be a simmilar size to low end heavy cruser of the third imperium.

A rival, TL 10 polity could only build 10,000 Dton ships, and a TL9 early jump civ is limited to 5,000 Dtons by comp limits. Low TL traveller is practically a Small Ship Universe!


Also, bear in mind that Traveller's standard gravtic M-drives give you reasonable speeds and travel times and fuel economy. A zero/zero trip of 1 AU at 1G is less than 3 days, and only 28 hours at 6G.

unless you're taking out gravity manipulation tech, in which case your hackdrive needs to be accurate enough to land or launch a ship with, or else the costs of getting things into orbit will be, to excuse the pun, astromonical.

I've been thinking about the weapons questions, and here's what I've come to: Energy weapons are basically useless against a ship with its shields fully up. That ship also can't see anyone; it's essentially blind.

rather like a Black Globe Generator, then? intresting......

have you considered how a P-sheild and Spinal mounts interact? while standard laser turrets may not be up to scratch, large spinal mounts may be able to dump enough energy on target to breach a sheild......

Ack! I missed the fact that the corona is much hotter than the sun's "inside." I just assumed it got cooler as you got more distant from the core. My bad.

worry not, the temp values are misleading.

the corona is "hotter", yes, in that each particle has more energy, but the particle desity is very low, which means it won't have much heating effect on a starship placed inside the corona, as their would be only a few collisions with the starship.

certainly, the effects would be very minor, compared to the direct, radiation heating form the sun only a few thouand KM away.......