mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hmm, a high tech grav polarized version that keeps the flechetes in a thick sheet rather than a cone could be an interesting weapon for Traveller.
New RW body armor
- Thread starter Uncle Bob
- Start date
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Actually, you could do it with something akin to a gauss, as well (no grav tech). Simply accelerate the flechettes together as a sheet, down a flat barrel (who says barrels have to be round?). With the right dispersal of the magnetic field, you could splay the flechettes into a flat pattern. I would think any gravitic add-ons would make each individual flechette too big.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I was thinking of TDX when I suggested it, so it would be based on whatever makes the TDX explosive grav polarized.
As an aside - has anyone ever tried to explain how TDX works?
As an aside - has anyone ever tried to explain how TDX works?
Flechette means dart; it's basically a fin-stabilized thin projectile. While you can fairly conveniently pack large numbers of them into a projectile (they aren't dependent on the barrel to straighten them out), there's no specific reason you can't build a gun that fires single flechettes (the M19 SPIW, a weapon which never got past the development stage, used flechette ammunition).
Flechette rounds come in several varieties. Artillery shells, Rocket warheads, and shotgun shells.
For the artillery shell, see the M546 APERS-T 105-mm as an example.
2.75” rockets have a WDU-4A/A warhead, 9.3lb, 17.76in long by 2.79in diameter loaded with about 7000 flechettes. The base of the tube has a small expulsion charge to throw the flechettes out of the tube. The forward velocity of the firing aircraft plus the velocity of the rocket will give the flechettes a great muzzle velocity. The flechettes are loaded in the tube shell in line with the tube in layers on top of each other, each layer alternating nose to tail so half the flechettes will enter the air stream flying backwards. The individual flechettes are about 1.5 in long by 1/16 in diameter with a tail flattened into 4 fins just large enough to catch the wind. The tumbling as the reversed flechettes turn will disperse the group into a large circular pattern.
Shotgun shells have been made using flechettes from rocket warheads. The problem with these shells is that they will scar a shotgun barrel quite nastily.
For the artillery shell, see the M546 APERS-T 105-mm as an example.
2.75” rockets have a WDU-4A/A warhead, 9.3lb, 17.76in long by 2.79in diameter loaded with about 7000 flechettes. The base of the tube has a small expulsion charge to throw the flechettes out of the tube. The forward velocity of the firing aircraft plus the velocity of the rocket will give the flechettes a great muzzle velocity. The flechettes are loaded in the tube shell in line with the tube in layers on top of each other, each layer alternating nose to tail so half the flechettes will enter the air stream flying backwards. The individual flechettes are about 1.5 in long by 1/16 in diameter with a tail flattened into 4 fins just large enough to catch the wind. The tumbling as the reversed flechettes turn will disperse the group into a large circular pattern.
Shotgun shells have been made using flechettes from rocket warheads. The problem with these shells is that they will scar a shotgun barrel quite nastily.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
The key is, though, that flechettes (as that term is commonly used) are fired in bunches, as vegascat's post shows.
vegascat: what happens to the propulsion part of the rocket? I would assume that it would continue travelling in a straight line toward the target. Is this a problem, or is it "machs nichts"? (Or does it simply add insult to injury when that hits, too?)
vegascat: what happens to the propulsion part of the rocket? I would assume that it would continue travelling in a straight line toward the target. Is this a problem, or is it "machs nichts"? (Or does it simply add insult to injury when that hits, too?)
flechette refers to a small, fin stabilized projectile. Fired in bunches they are properly called APERS, familiarly called "beehive".
But a "flechette rifle" fires single flechettes sequentually. This was true of the SPIW of thr 1960, and also the TRW and Steyr ACR candidates in the 1980s.
But a "flechette rifle" fires single flechettes sequentually. This was true of the SPIW of thr 1960, and also the TRW and Steyr ACR candidates in the 1980s.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
I shall accept that definition, Uncle Bob.
But I prefer to call them "needlers" in Traveller...
But I prefer to call them "needlers" in Traveller...
The first 'bullet proof' armor was fielded in the English civil war. There are many examples in museums that show the proofing - a dent where a musket balol was fired at the armor.
Napoleonic armor as worn by Cuirassiers and Carbiniers of the French army used cuirasses that covered both the front and the back. This armor weight about 20 pounds, and was proof only against pistol balls. It was meant for protection against melee weapons. Austrian Cuirassiers wore armor that only protected the front, and some cuirassiers in others armies didn't even wear a cuirass.
A Cuirass of a trooper of the French Imperial Guard:
The cuirass might have stopped a pistol shot, but was no match for artillery:
The last use of the cuirass in battle was probably during the Franco-Prussian war at the battle of Mars-la-Tour, where the Prusian cuirassiers charged the French in what became known as "von Bulow's death ride", losing four squadrons by allowing the Prussian infantry to reform.
The connection is that they are both long rod penetrations, and have extremely high cross sectional densities. If were assume the simplest projectile for the gauss weapon (which is canonically a coil gun - and probably requires a ferro-magnetic projectile) that is probably elemental iron. Given that the description in CT is a projectile massing 4 grams and 4mm in diameter, the length of such a projectile constructed of iron works out to be about 40mm long.
Except sabotted conventional bullets aren't very good penetrators. There's really no reason to fire conventional bullets if you have flechettes. The latter can easily be made so as to create extremely damaging wounds - more so than conventional military bullets.
Further, their nearly flat trajectories mean there is no need for correction in elevation or windage at combat ranges.
BTW, the following url has some information and photos for the curious.
http://www.steyr-aug.com/acr2002.htm
Not necessarily. A number of serial flechette weapons hae been proposed, starting with the various SPIW weapons of the 1960. More recently, the Steyr ACR was developed as a serial flechette rifle.
Serial flechette rifle are very different from 'beehive' type munition that deploy dozens or even hunfreds of flechettes from a single round. Rifle flechettes usually have extreme muzzle velocities. The AAI SPIW fire 10.6 grain flechettes in excess of 4800 fps - exceeding the speed of sound in tissue.
Detailed information can be found in the publication "SPIW: the deadliest weapon that never was" published by Collector Grade armory.
The connection is that they are both long rod penetrations</font>[/QUOTE]There is no inherent corrolation between long-rod penetrators and gauss weapons. Sure, gauss weapons in Traveller might be long-rod penetrators (I've seen some references to 'hollow point', so ?), but gauss is a propellant method, not a bullet type.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
4mm, 4 gramme.
Do the math.
They are either really fat or really long.
Fat won't penetrate armour.
The description in Mercenary says soft outside, dense AP core inside. So the magnetic metal is probably the outer coating, with something denser inside.
Do the math.
They are either really fat or really long.
Fat won't penetrate armour.
The description in Mercenary says soft outside, dense AP core inside. So the magnetic metal is probably the outer coating, with something denser inside.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Which, Sigg, takes us back to something similar to a sabot round....
Not SABOT, APCR (armor piering composite rigid)
I threw some numbers at it, and it looks like it needs a 1:2" twist to stabilize it. That would not work with a lead projectile in a rifled steel barrel.
But with a tungsten cored projectile in a ductile iron sheath suspended in and spun by an EM field it seems more plausable, although techically challenging.
I threw some numbers at it, and it looks like it needs a 1:2" twist to stabilize it. That would not work with a lead projectile in a rifled steel barrel.
But with a tungsten cored projectile in a ductile iron sheath suspended in and spun by an EM field it seems more plausable, although techically challenging.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
So does the magnetic sheath fall away, or remain as part of the round?
What are the pros and cons of each model I wonder?
What are the pros and cons of each model I wonder?
