Nobles in My Traveller Universe
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I think it's important to note that there would also be an interstellar culture amongst the spaceworkers and travellers quite independent of worlds, and distinct from the nobles too.
Indeed, much of the grist for our adventure mills comes from clashes and resolution between 'those that do' and 'those that rule'.
Travellers would greatly crave anything approaching citizenship in order to have rights to not be unduly harmed by bizarre planetary custom- or the vagaries and whims of nobles.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I have long been arguing that the Imperium would have become a space based, rather than world based, culture.
If Imperial government still begins at the subsector level then it is only people who can travel from world to world across a subsector that can be considered true citizens, i.e. Travellers.
Proles (Roman version rather than Zho) who are planet bound and subject to their planet's laws are not able to claim their rights as Imperial citizens.
If Imperial government still begins at the subsector level then it is only people who can travel from world to world across a subsector that can be considered true citizens, i.e. Travellers.
Proles (Roman version rather than Zho) who are planet bound and subject to their planet's laws are not able to claim their rights as Imperial citizens.
What is puzzling me about your model is just how you see this working.
How do planetary governments interfere with the freedom to travel, barring some particular local laws? Canonically, worlds can make their own laws restricting people coming in and people leaving (Exit Visa!), and for my part I see no reason to interfere with this.
How does the Imperium function if world governments are unable to enforce their laws on anyone who has ever served in any Imperial service, or been born on a starship, and so on? Or is this not how you intend it to work?
Yes, I take that as given. As to your other point, yes, I would say that the Imperium has reduced overall violence below the level you would see if there was no interstellar government. But mercenaries and tradewar still exist and are tacitly approved, so in Tilly's framework, the Imperium is not a mature state.
Essentially, in my Imperium, the Imperial response to violence depends on just who is doing that violence.
Yes ... the culture of interstellar workers would be entirely distinct from the many world cultures, and separate also from elite culture. I take it as given that PCs can't blend in with the locals ... it's going to be very clear that You're Not From Around Here. I assume there are local accents and dialects and customs and manners of dress and so forth ... but within the Spinward Marches, anyone who serves in a merchant crew will know the same slang, dress much the same, etc.
Yes ... but I don't want people to have those protections. Mine is a capricious environment where if you want to make sure you don't fall afoul of local customs, you check library data before going planetside. And travellers avoid stupid planets. Worlds have reputations as places worth seeing and places to avoid....
But I take as given that the more traffic a world sees, the more cosmopolitan its outlook. Even if the world has a restrictive theocracy, the district around the starport will be more relaxed.
As for nobles, you get no protection from them.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Some things I do with nobles:
They have to make fealty to the Emperor every year in the form of a big "donation."
Ones higher than Knights are going to get pulled into local politics, have to do public appearances, can expect local nobility to call on them, etc. They snub say a Baron or Count, count on there being repercussions.
They do on the other hand get a pass with customs, police, and other instruments of the state primarily for dealing with "commoners." This means to an extent they are above the law but also expected to participate in being a noble with the nobility. They can't shirk their duties in that respect.
On the whole, they have to "Walk the walk and talk the talk" being a noble.
They have to make fealty to the Emperor every year in the form of a big "donation."
Ones higher than Knights are going to get pulled into local politics, have to do public appearances, can expect local nobility to call on them, etc. They snub say a Baron or Count, count on there being repercussions.
They do on the other hand get a pass with customs, police, and other instruments of the state primarily for dealing with "commoners." This means to an extent they are above the law but also expected to participate in being a noble with the nobility. They can't shirk their duties in that respect.
On the whole, they have to "Walk the walk and talk the talk" being a noble.
My biggest issue with the "Imperial Culture" is that there is no mechanism for propagating it. You have to be surrounded my people who have a culture to interact with it. You need someone to raise the person in the traditions of the people and have a medium (ie society) to practice it, have positive/negative reinforcement in real time, and even have the means for seeking approval or rebelling against cultural mores. You can't do that with only ONE person.
Now, take an enclave for example. If it enjoys the same features as a diplomatic facility - its soil is technically that of the Imperial home world. Using the formula I found at this website:
http://www.had2know.com/academics/hexagon-measurement-calculator.html
A 10 km hex will have an area of approximately 86.60254 square kilometers. How many people can you fit into such an enclave? If Belgium's population of 340 people per square kilometer is anything to emulate, we're looking at a potential enclave population of around 29,000 people.
Why did I pick that number? T5 indicates that a noble's single HEX is a hex with a diameter of 10 km. A higher noble gains MORE land. And if I understand what Marc wrote in his book correctly, a Baronet has his land grant plus the land grant of his knight hood. A Count has the land grant of all of the previous grants from previous social status holdings in addition to his Count holdings. Half of the holdings are on the main world, half is on a world within the system that isn't the main world.
In all? THAT is a lot of land, and a lot of people.
Now, can you require an ambassador to secure an exit visa? Can you pen in the only representative of the Emperor (A knight for instance) on a world he's been granted a knighthood on? I suspect not. Can he live his life in an area that does not have the main world's culture constantly surrounding him if he has his own enclave surrounding him instead?
Now, some worlds MIGHT want to build their own "extrality" wall around the Noble's home, and they darn better declare the airspace above his home restricted. In my Traveller Universe, the death of a noble requires that Imperium investigate it. That is a "NO NO" to have a simple killing of a Noble - it may be a sign of impending unrest etc.
Now, about those Imperials who gained it through service to the Emperor. As such, they could apply for a position within an Imperial Enclave or perhaps at a Starport. They can also simply live on the main world of their birth with their dual citizenship. As with ALL dual citizenship situations, depending on who wants jurisdiction over the victim who was a citizen of the Imperium, or who wants jurisdiction over a criminal who is a citizen of the Imperium - makes for a potential sticky issue. As such, it offers a potential for the GM to have a Noble player character be required to investigate such a situation and make recommendations based on their investigation. He might suggest "throw him to the wolves" and let the local laws take the guy down. Or he might suggest "Remand him to an Imperial Court" etc.
So, how is this any different than a starport? Simple enough question, and deserves an answer...
the NOBLE whose land it is, is responsible. He's a representative of the Crown to the locals, and he is also a representative of the locals to the Imperial government (which is likely subsector in nature).
NOW the nobles have real power. They can import technology to their enclave and not worry about whether the local government bans it or not. They can import ideas, entertainment media, etc - that the local government has NO say - any more than a nation has any say over what goes on in a Diplomats home or the embassy grounds proper. If a Westerner wants to drink alcohol in an American Embassy in a region that forbids alcohol consumption on religious grounds, the American embassy can simply ignore the issue and keep it behind walls...
In the end? Each GM can set up his own Universe as he sees fit. My problem is that I see ZERO cohesion with the background as written in official material - that keeps the nobles squarely in the camp of "Imperial Culture".
As I mentioned earlier...
Culture isn't about foods (although that is part of it). It isn't about the language (although that can be a part about it). It isn't even just the religion or entertainment or anything else that people will point to and mistakenly say "that is culture". Culture is the means by which it instills values in its youngest generation in preparation for when its older generation dies off - it is a means of continuity for the state/people/religion etc. Movies that we watch - pay attention to who the Villans are. Their behavior shows what the culture says is "Wrong". Pay attention to what the hero does to counter the bad... that tends to be what is deemed to be not only right, but necessary to counter the bad. Some entertainment blurs the lines between the two, and in some instances, the anti-hero shows what needs to be done. Honor is defined by the entertainment or by the Aesop's fables kind of things. Truisms such as "The early bird gets the worm" also show some of the rights/wrongs of what the culture wants to instill in its young.
Then we have the fascination with the lifestyles of the rich and famous or those who openly break the law. The question becomes one of "is the line between right and wrong starting to blur at this point?" or perhaps "do people want to break past the inhibitions that culture imposes"? Those are questions perhaps for anthropologists and sociologists.
Anyhow. I know that what bothers me about this isn't necessarily something that bothers other people. But - its kind of funny how Traveller started me down the road in College, of looking into Physics, astrophysics, and trying to apply my courses in sociology, psychology, economics etc - to the universe to make sense of it. That of course, was back in 1978 - I never really got TOO involved with MEGATRAVELLER (was too busy working in a factory and going to college). When TNE came out, we tried it, sorta had fun with it, but liked GURPS better. Did a GURPS/TRAVELLER fusion before GURPS TRAVELLER came out (using CT ship rules for ships and stuff, but GURPS rules for characters and combats). Then we tried T4 and HATED it. Never tried any of the Traveller incarnations again until T5 came out when I purchased two books and gave one to a friend. We were NOT happy with the combat rules and ditched it
but, for now? We want there to be more detail behind the Nobility of the Imperium and how they are part of it, how they interact with the universe, and how it kicks them in the teeth from time to time.
Now if I could only get over the disconnect between the T5 planetary generation rules and the default setting for Spinward Marches. Case in point? They're using the stats generated for Strouden using the older SCOUTS rules or MEGATRAVELLER rules where Strouden has zero Gas Giants. Um... what? At least they changed the primary star from an M class star to a G class star - but to make T5's SPINWARD MARCHES truly a T5 product, they need to start from more or less scratch instead of using the PGA setting from MEGATRAVELLER era
But, again, it can remain the way it is, and I can change it for my Traveller Universe - that's the joy of IMTU...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I'm going to go with communications and knowledge base.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Were there any atheistic ancient cultures her on earth at all? Do funeral rights and care for the dead imply religion, because if so flykiller is spot on.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Religion often teaches right and wrong.in early Times, sex out of wedlock for patriarchal societies cased problems for the unwed mother and her kid. Other women would label such behavior as immoral and ostracized the offender to (in theory) to protect their monopoly on certain marital rights (not the of avoiding replacement by said competition. I should reread WHEN GOD WAS A WOMAN for a Martiarchal society (or certain western New York Native American tribes) .
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
As I am setting up a sector well to the Rimward of the Solomani Sphere, the Imperium is not a factor to any degree. Any nobles in the sector are strictly based on planetary titles, and have no special benefits anywhere else. Depending on the planet a ship lands on, claiming a noble title may make you a target for assassination by extremist democracy or anarchist factions, as well as being challenged to duels by aggrieved local nobles. Basically, being a noble gives you limited perks and some major headaches. For the very straying Imperium noble, shooting them is viewed as a public good and may earn the person responsible for the Imperial's sudden demise considerable honors and recognition. See H. Beam Piper's book, Lone Star Planet, a.k.a. as A Planet for Texans, for more understanding of that aspect.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20121/20121-h/20121-h.htm
Note, this is not to mean that I dislike nobles or the concept of nobility, but that the perks come with a lot of headaches, which does seem to be ignored a lot. There are no empires in the sector, but you do have some limited planetary groupings.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20121/20121-h/20121-h.htm
Note, this is not to mean that I dislike nobles or the concept of nobility, but that the perks come with a lot of headaches, which does seem to be ignored a lot. There are no empires in the sector, but you do have some limited planetary groupings.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
minimally they imply beliefs about what the universe actually is and how it actually functions ...
... which leads to natural conclusions about what is right and wrong, social cohesion, and social structures.
one might better describe any such as "societies" rather than "cultures". they would be mere collections of individuals having little cohesion and no reason to function as any kind of identifiable culture. most of the major architectural artifacts around the world are specifically or derivatively religious in nature and required huge societies for construction to be possible - and where such structures are survivable one finds such structures in virtually every significantly populous area on earth (one notable exception is india where early empire temples were built of wood and no longer exist).
This is your assumption, based on how you see nobles living out their lives.
You seem to be assuming that nobles spend most of their lives on their own estates on whatever piddly little planet their estates happen to be on. I suggest they would spend little time on their own estates, and most of their lives sucking up to Sector Dukes, Archdukes, and the Emperor, in settings where there is a separate Imperial cultural life.
As children they attend schools with the children of the elite; as teenagers, they hang out with the children of other nobles; as adults, they hobnob with other nobles and with the non-noble megarich, travelling from one court to another, while the actual civil service work is done by their lackeys.
I'll return to my question: how do you see the Imperium's relationship to its worlds working, given that this concept of citizenship undermines the ability of worlds to govern themselves?
Anthropology seems to disagree, especially since some anthropologists are now using it to refer to the learned portions of the behaviors of apes, wolves, dolphins, and seals.
I'd agree that it's a major element of cultures as participated in by Homo sapiens sapiens, but the argument is made that religion may be the hallmark of H. sapiens sapiens (vs H. sapiens antecessor.)
