Nobles in My Traveller Universe

[aramis]

I'm unable to determine the meaning behind this - rephrase?

It means that, the moment it goes from religion as an abstract clade, to a particular religion, someone gets infracted, and the second time, the whole thread moves into the pit in addition to someone getting an infraction.

Keep it to the abstract level, without mentioning specifics.

 

[Hal]

It means that, the moment it goes from religion as an abstract clade, to a particular religion, someone gets infracted, and the second time, the whole thread moves into the pit in addition to someone getting an infraction.

Keep it to the abstract level, without mentioning specifics.

Since I've no intention of going into specifics of a specific religion, but into matriarchy vs patriarchy systems, I think we're safe on that count. But, for the record, I don't play politically correct games either. If I find I'm dealing with people who play such games, I either place them on ignore or find other individuals to associate with. Seeing as this is twice you've seen fit to offer a warning of such nature, it appears you and I should go private regarding the need for safe space warnings. I will unsubscibe from this thread until we have had that private discussion.

 

[flykiller]

Seeing as this is twice you've seen fit to offer a warning of such nature, it appears you and I should go private regarding the need for safe space warnings.

ah, don't blame aramis for anything. the subject matter tends to engender screaming hissy fits, and there was a time when this board was filled with screaming hissy fits on all sorts of subjects. aramis simply is exercising a mandate to make sure that never happens again. personally I don't think the subject can be pursued to any justice under the given limitations, but he's just trying to preserve the board, that's all.

Anthropology seems to disagree, especially since some anthropologists are now using it to refer to the learned portions of the behaviors of apes, wolves, dolphins, and seals.

I'm fairly sure "culture" goes beyond "that's my banana" and "that's my female" and "you die now".

 

[Condottiere]

Saunaing and delousing.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Since 'culture is on hold', I may as well comment on the land thing - IMNSHO people are misunderstanding what a land grant in the term of nobility is (was). The land was _owned_ by the ruler but _administered_ by the noble. The noble then sent the net income from that land to the ruler as tribute/taxes/troops, while keeping some as essentially a 'wage'.

The nearest loose equivalent I can think of is the current British system. While the Royal family (the crown) technically owns large chunks of land, that land is administered and run by the Crown Estate, with the Royal owners being paid a stipend from the profits. (A _very_ loose analogy, it's much more complicated of course - sorry Welsh )

This appears to be the layout of land grants (using T5) - It states that "the holder [of the land grant] owns outright one Local Hex. That land may become the holder’s personal estate...".

So Count Bling, may have a land grant for 16 terrain hexes (104,000km2 or about the size of Iceland), he only _owns_ and has free swath on an area of 65km2 (a small island). You are not going to have a legion of local people squatting there once you throw in guards, servants and retainers.

So what is the rest of the 1099935km2 of the Count Bling's grant. It could be literally anything and definetly not one big chunk. A few km^2 of an industrial park here, 1000km^2 area with a mine there, a few hectares of a turnip plantation, etc. It all adds up. But one thing it isn’t is some sort of Imperial immunity enclave anymore than a foreign citizen's holdings are diplomatically immune to local laws. They may let the noble know things out of courtesy but are not obliged to.

Now where does the ~10KCr per hex income come from? It’s the stipend the noble receives for running the emperor’s property. The net profits from activities on the land – wether renting it out, producing things on it, or whatever you do with it gets bundled up and sent off to the next noble in line. He bundles up all his subordinates ‘tribute’ and sends it up the chain, thus providing the Imperium with a nice income.

And the noble’s station is dependent on this tribute – provide substandard tribute to what your superior expects and he will make a frowny face and utter words like ‘regrettable’ and ‘displeasure’. Continue with this and said noble may be “Reassigned to a world more befitting of his skills” – aka a two dog, one horse backwater world.

So said noble has to watch his demesnes income, subtly encourage the local leaders to support his income enhancing schemes, mollify local skeptics, keep abreast of local laws and loopholes, potential problem movements, etc. He has to walk the line of “All hail the emperor” without getting the locals restless and reducing his fiefs income. Stirring up waves for some idiot trying to ‘seek sanctuary’ on his personal fief had better have a big long term pay off otherwise he will simply say “The Imperium respects your local customs, here is the miscreant. By the way, about that planning document for the Widget factory…..”

If he is having difficulty in walking the line due to a persistent problem, perhaps those nice PC’s could be asked to do something ‘regrettable but necessary’ for the good of the Empire…..

 

[welsh]

Since 'culture is on hold', I may as well comment on the land thing - IMNSHO people are misunderstanding what a land grant in the term of nobility is (was). The land was _owned_ by the ruler but _administered_ by the noble. The noble then sent the net income from that land to the ruler as tribute/taxes/troops, while keeping some as essentially a 'wage'.

This has been pretty much my mental model of how land grants work. And I take it that most grants are developed, i.e. that there are mines, factories, working farms or whatever on that land, generating an income, in contrast to Imperial lands (like Crown land in Canada), which are simply the undeveloped hinterland of backwater worlds, administered by the civil service.

My model for this is a hybrid of British colonial administration and the civil service weenies in Dostoevsky novels, counting their rubles, currying favour, and looking for marriageable 18 year olds.

I don't think nobles spend much time living on their fiefs.

 

[Condottiere]

You're wrong, otherwise how could they enjoy their droit de seigneur?

 

[whulorigan]

I don't think nobles spend much time living on their fiefs.

At least from a T5 viewpoint (in which Land-Grant THexes may be scattered across an entire subsector or sector depending on the title), that is why the first THex in any grant is on the Noble's homeworld. Different subsidiary titles to the main title may be located on entirely different worlds (and in fact the Noble's homeworld might not be related to any of the Noble's fief-worlds otherwise).

The Count of Zivije (for example) will have THexes across both Zivije and the rest of the the Spinward Marches, his subsidiary title of Viscount of Rabwhar will have THexes scattered across Rabwhar and the rest of Lunion subsector, his subsidiary Marquisate on Jone will have THexes scattered across Jone and the Five Sisters, and any Baronial and/or Baronetcy THexes will each be associated with single worlds.

And his homeworld (for example) might be Rhylanor, for a total of 5 THexes (the 1st hex of each grant above) being located on that world - because when a person is elevated to the nobility, there is no guarantee that any of the granted titles will be co-located with the individual's homeworld.

 

[Lycanorukke]

At least from a T5 viewpoint (in which Land-Grant THexes may be scattered across an entire subsector or sector depending on the title), that is why the first THex in any grant is on the Noble's homeworld.

Thankfully most of the holdings are limited to a sector (except for archdukes and emperors) so the noble doesn't have to spend all their time rushing between their holdings. But even in this case - a Marquis or Viscount would need to jump around an area 8x10 parsecs - meaning the Type Y makes a bit of sense - or delegate. Counts and Duke would need a J6 ship just to keep up on things in the sector, have some very trusted seneschals, or also delegate.

So on the planetary level - the Baron and Baronet not only have to run their holdings, but keep watch over their superiors holdings when the superior is not there. And we do seem to have a lot of those Knight types around. Better put them to work as well - so now you ask the PC - do you _really_ want that Soc B?. :devil:

 

[whulorigan]

Thankfully most of the holdings are limited to a sector (except for archdukes and emperors) so the noble doesn't have to spend all their time rushing between their holdings. But even in this case - a Marquis or Viscount would need to jump around an area 8x10 parsecs - meaning the Type Y makes a bit of sense - or delegate. Counts and Duke would need a J6 ship just to keep up on things in the sector, have some very trusted seneschals, or also delegate.

So on the planetary level - the Baron and Baronet not only have to run their holdings, but keep watch over their superiors holdings when the superior is not there. And we do seem to have a lot of those Knight types around. Better put them to work as well - so now you ask the PC - do you _really_ want that Soc B?. :devil:

Seneschal/steward is a good appointment for an honor noble of the appropriate status who otherwise does not have specific function within the Imperial system.

 

[Uren]

IMTU, nobles serve as military officers, civil servants / bureaucrats, and as representatives of the Emperor's authority on the member worlds. The representatives ensure taxes are paid, and from their cut maintain whatever forces they need to keep the tax revenue flowing and local planetary government loyal. They are the conduits through which the planetary governments request imperial assistance, receive imperial commands, or suffer the Emperor's displeasure. As a military aristocracy descended from the conquerors who founded the 3I, the nobility is above planetary law. Their persons and properties are sacrosanct, and they can only be detained or judged by Imperial forces for violations of Imperial law. It is possible for nobles to victimize people, but the working relationship between the world's noble and the planetary government usually brings Imperial authority to bear in a timely manner. Imperial military commanders and senior starport officials are within their authority to intervene in extreme cases, if they're willing to risk their careers and/or necks. A planetary government complaining of conduct beneath the dignity of an imperial noble would have a good chance of redress if the behavior is serious. IMTU no noble wants to face a local imperial court presided over by the world's baron. At the very least an offending noble can be held indefinitely until a naval vessel can take him to the subsector duke to answer for himself. Imperial law IMTU protects and privileges the nobility, but can also punish harshly. Nobles live by a code of militaristic virtues tempered by ancient tradition, cultural heritage, and fossilized vilani conservatism. That's what's expected. In practice nobles diligently carry out their responsibilities but spend more effort on their pleasures, intrjgues, and schemes to increase their wealth and power. Dissolute nobles or misfits are shameful family secrets and are dealt with in various ways, some less pleasant than others. Tribute and gifts are a normal part of dealing with nobles so it's not considered corrupt. Some nobles are truly corrupt, but they tend to be very powerful or very sneaky.
The social climbing tends to happen at the sector and subsector level because of travel times. An important difference IMTU is the explicit naked state power a noble represents. A world's noble makes few demands on the planetary government but if those few demands are not met heads will roll. If a noble or his estate are attacked the navy will take vengeance on such foul treason if his household guards can't handle it. A world's noble can also use his local forces to support the planetary government against its own people if he chooses. A calm predictable situation is in everyone's interest so things don't get dicey too often.

IMTU there's no imperial culture just 10000 local cultures descended from vilani, solomani, or minor human cultures. The nobility has its own culture, centered around the myth cycle of the original heroic solomani race which conquered the vilani. These myths and legends teach history, virtues, philosophy and morality. Vilani nobles have little interest in hearing these old tales. These teaching unite the nobility and serve as a common standard of behavior despite their differing local cultures. Privately noble values include protecting ones family against all challengers, increasing the family fortunes, having heirs and at least keeping the appearance of a lifestyle of moderation. The imperial armed forces and agencies teach their instutional cultures through regulations and traditions. The military services focus on duty, honor and sacrifice, and unofficially on careerism and playing hard. The agencies focus on quiet professionalism, education, being cultured and careerism.

 

[welsh]

At least from a T5 viewpoint (in which Land-Grant THexes may be scattered across an entire subsector or sector depending on the title), that is why the first THex in any grant is on the Noble's homeworld.

I would add that the noble won't necessarily spend much time even on his own homeworld, in my view. He's got all kinds of interests to take care of, so sitting back and admiring his wonderful estate is low on his list of priorities.

Indeed, his duties may have him working in the Spinward Marches even though his homeworld is in the Fornast sector. That scenario might not be exactly common, but on the other hand, I don't think it would be highly unusual.

 

[aramis]

A noble who cannot rotate through his fief cannot make efforts to manage it.
If he cannot manage it, he is not worthy of it.
if he's not worthy of it, it's a monkey around his neck with a garrotte, not a reward, a set-up to fail and be broken.

I find it far more likely that any given fief will entirely be within a proverbial stone's throw - maybe a 6 Pc radius - so that it can actually be managed. More distant fiefs are there to give to your other kids... to keep them out of the way of the primary heir.

 

[welsh]

A noble who cannot rotate through his fief cannot make efforts to manage it.

Yes, but he can leave a sibling to manage it and drop in several times a year. He doesn't need to live there. He just needs good managers working for him.

 

[aramis]

Yes, but he can leave a sibling to manage it and drop in several times a year. He doesn't need to live there. He just needs good managers working for him.

If the distance is more than about 15 parsecs, forget "several times a year" and drop it to maybe "once or twice a decade"...

Typical merchant shipping is J3 or slower.

The standard Yacht is J1; the fancier ones in some later publications are J2-J3 and 10x the price (and op cost) for 3x the speed and no more passenger capacity...

At J3, a dead run to 9 Pc is a month, allowing a day per jump to refuel.
A J3 dead run in a fast yacht to 15 Pc is still 3 months round trip (6 weeks each way, allowing for refuels).

That time is, essentially, lost for all purposes, except maybe ingratiating some less fortunate nobles by carrying them along for a leg or two.

The oversight will not be twice a year...

 

[Lycanorukke]

I find it far more likely that any given fief will entirely be within a proverbial stone's throw - maybe a 6 Pc radius - so that it can actually be managed. More distant fiefs are there to give to your other kids... to keep them out of the way of the primary heir.

Given that the nobles tend to collect various titles - the viscount of A, is also the maquis of B, the baron of C and a knight of D, E and F. You use those for descendant allocation - the heir gets to run the Marquis for practice when they take over, the 'second son' gets the Baronship, and you palm the Knighthoods off to various relatives.

It's also a good way to get rid of 'eccentric' relatives you cant disown or dispose of. You send them off with knighthood to the back end of nowhere to get rid of them. The local Baron can't toss them out if they become a headache as they are relatives of his boss. He has to keep the world running and clean up their indescretions. And while he does technically outrank the relatives and could put them in their place, it would be career suicide.

Knight of Nowhere: "M'lord, we have a delicate matter to deal with"
Baron of Nowhere: "*sigh* Sir Littlebig is drunk and is swinging from the town hall flagpole singing about goblins?."
Knight of Nowhere: "Yes m'lord. And Lady Carfax is table dancing at the starport...again"
Baron of Nowhere: *face palms*I hate my life...

Could be the reason some worlds dont seem to have local Barons. No one is dumb enough to take up the position willingly on worlds with a 'reputation'.

 

[mike wightman]

Dukes who rule subsectors 'are' the Imperial government. [Why are subsector capitals not in the central part of the subsector for easy communication with every planet within the duchy.
The duke has responsibility for:
tax collection [so developing he worlds within his domain is a prime concern]
enforcing Imperial edicts/laws/proclamations [all the while having to respect the laws of the individual worlds since they have extensive home rule due to the Imperium being a distant government]
deploying his own or Imperial forces to act as a police force if necessary [which implies subsector dukes can 'command' Imperial forces providing those commands do not conflict with sector level orders
jockey for position to become sector duke [by sabotaging the efforts of neighbouring duke, promoting economic development of his own worlds - more taxes means more clout, attracting megacorporation investment, developing resource acquisition etc.]

A subsector duke will definitely have to travel around his domain to regularly check up on worlds, but he needs underlings to be doing the same on the worlds he isn't at currently, and finally he needs teams of 'agents' [knights?] to troubleshoot for him when sending in the huscarls or ordering in the IN is really not an option.

Plenty of adventure opportunities in that set up...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

IMTU there's no imperial culture just 10000 local cultures descended from vilani, solomani, or minor human cultures.

This is how I have always seen the setting. The Long Night shattered any unified First Imperium culture. I doubt the Solomani were ever a unified culture.

The Imperium rules space, not planets. The Nobility is Imperial, not local. Some planets are ruled by Nobles, some are not. Some have a Noble figure-head, some are republics. The Emperor can't create a fiefdom on a planet any more than Queen Elizabeth II can create a fiefdom in Australia.

T5 has apparently changed all that, sadly.

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperial rules space not planets - apart from the planets they do directly rule?
Some nobles rule planets - very rare in the Spimward Marches for a subsector duke or lesser noble to be the actual ruler of a world.

This is something the authors never really addressed - direct Imperial rule of colony worlds set up by the Imperium, worlds owned by the Imperial nobility, worlds conquered and absorbed into the Imperium years of the 3I and of course the worlds of the original Sylean Federation.

DGP didn't do a good job detailing core sectors IMHO, they didn't have enough worlds ruled directly by the Imperium.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Imperial rules space not planets - apart from the planets they do directly rule?

No rule without exception?

Some nobles rule planets - very rare in the Spimward Marches for a subsector duke or lesser noble to be the actual ruler of a world.

Perhaps more common in the Core. The easy way expand the early Imperium and integrate pocket empires would have been to make the local rulers Imperial Nobles.