OLD GDW Adventures

[kaladorn]

Very well said, Larsen.

I concur. My favorite thing about the nugget format (if used correctly) is the ability to establish some latitude wrt which paths the players take, since my players always find odd paths. I *hate* straightjackets.

So yes, I concur wholeheartedly with your analysis of some of the DGP adventures and with your analysis of what a 'good' way to do things is.

I was going to say that the thing I hate worst in other people's adventures: I hate things that say "no matter what the PCs do, this happens", especially when it has to do with them getting knocked out, losing their ship, etc. Nothing provokes players more if they're playing smart than this kind of ham-handed plot control.

I much prefer to present them with a situation where they can dig themselves a hole, hand them a shovel, and see what they do. Sometimes they build a sandcastle.

 

[kaladorn]

Very well said, Larsen.

I concur. My favorite thing about the nugget format (if used correctly) is the ability to establish some latitude wrt which paths the players take, since my players always find odd paths. I *hate* straightjackets.

So yes, I concur wholeheartedly with your analysis of some of the DGP adventures and with your analysis of what a 'good' way to do things is.

I was going to say that the thing I hate worst in other people's adventures: I hate things that say "no matter what the PCs do, this happens", especially when it has to do with them getting knocked out, losing their ship, etc. Nothing provokes players more if they're playing smart than this kind of ham-handed plot control.

I much prefer to present them with a situation where they can dig themselves a hole, hand them a shovel, and see what they do. Sometimes they build a sandcastle.

 

[Whipsnade]

kaladorn wrote:

"Very well said, Larsen."


Tom,

Thank you, sir. Every so often I actually manage to post something that makes sense.

"I concur. My favorite thing about the nugget format (if used correctly) is the ability to establish some latitude wrt which paths the players take, since my players always find odd paths. I *hate* straightjackets."

Rest assured, that is a loathing we share.

Upon re-reading my last post, I am ashamed of a portion of what I wrote. I unfairly denigrated both the recent T20 adventure, "Objects of the Mind", and that adventure's author. That was not my intent in any way, shape, or form. I believe that "OotM" is a fine adventure, as does the reviewer whose review I spoke about.

I used "OotM" as an example of 'linear nugget' plotting use because it was newly published, had been recently reviewed, and would most likely be known to the members here (as opposed to some 'ancient' CT reprint or OOP DGP effort). Most of the 'linear' nature of "OotM" is due to the deadline central to the plot. If anything, "OotM" exhibits 'linear' plotting in a minimal form.

"I was going to say that the thing I hate worst in other people's adventures: I hate things that say "no matter what the PCs do, this happens", especially when it has to do with them getting knocked out, losing their ship, etc. Nothing provokes players more if they're playing smart than this kind of ham-handed plot control."

Yes, lockstepped results quickly grate on the players. No matter if she makes her impossible task roll with pips to spare, she fails because the 'plot' demands it. Ugh.

"I much prefer to present them with a situation where they can dig themselves a hole, hand them a shovel, and see what they do. Sometimes they build a sandcastle."

Exactly. Feed them all the rope they want. Sometimes they vent the lab ship to space and sometimes they find a way to make the horse sing. You've used your creativity as GM to set up the adventure, now let the players use their creativity as PCs to live it. Share the fun.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

kaladorn wrote:

"Very well said, Larsen."


Tom,

Thank you, sir. Every so often I actually manage to post something that makes sense.

"I concur. My favorite thing about the nugget format (if used correctly) is the ability to establish some latitude wrt which paths the players take, since my players always find odd paths. I *hate* straightjackets."

Rest assured, that is a loathing we share.

Upon re-reading my last post, I am ashamed of a portion of what I wrote. I unfairly denigrated both the recent T20 adventure, "Objects of the Mind", and that adventure's author. That was not my intent in any way, shape, or form. I believe that "OotM" is a fine adventure, as does the reviewer whose review I spoke about.

I used "OotM" as an example of 'linear nugget' plotting use because it was newly published, had been recently reviewed, and would most likely be known to the members here (as opposed to some 'ancient' CT reprint or OOP DGP effort). Most of the 'linear' nature of "OotM" is due to the deadline central to the plot. If anything, "OotM" exhibits 'linear' plotting in a minimal form.

"I was going to say that the thing I hate worst in other people's adventures: I hate things that say "no matter what the PCs do, this happens", especially when it has to do with them getting knocked out, losing their ship, etc. Nothing provokes players more if they're playing smart than this kind of ham-handed plot control."

Yes, lockstepped results quickly grate on the players. No matter if she makes her impossible task roll with pips to spare, she fails because the 'plot' demands it. Ugh.

"I much prefer to present them with a situation where they can dig themselves a hole, hand them a shovel, and see what they do. Sometimes they build a sandcastle."

Exactly. Feed them all the rope they want. Sometimes they vent the lab ship to space and sometimes they find a way to make the horse sing. You've used your creativity as GM to set up the adventure, now let the players use their creativity as PCs to live it. Share the fun.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[jchurchill]

Yes, lockstepped results quickly grate on the players. No matter if she makes her impossible task roll with pips to spare, she fails because the 'plot' demands it. Ugh.
================================================
A funny thing about this. The first person who introduced our group to RPG was a bit hamfisted and rolled all the dice himself. So one never knew whether one had succeeded at anything or if "plot" had already determined the outcome.

The hiding of game mechanics certainly gave a realism to play but also allowed the Ref. a chance to play God.

Life was nasty, brutish, and short in that universe.

 

[jchurchill]

Yes, lockstepped results quickly grate on the players. No matter if she makes her impossible task roll with pips to spare, she fails because the 'plot' demands it. Ugh.
================================================
A funny thing about this. The first person who introduced our group to RPG was a bit hamfisted and rolled all the dice himself. So one never knew whether one had succeeded at anything or if "plot" had already determined the outcome.

The hiding of game mechanics certainly gave a realism to play but also allowed the Ref. a chance to play God.

Life was nasty, brutish, and short in that universe.

 

[Tanuki]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Yup, the safari ship is a keeper. It's one of the better CT designs, IMEHO. There's a purely merchant version of it, complete with deckplans on the 'Net.

The merchant version is at http://www.sff.net/people/kitsune/traveller/

I've got to get stats for it up one of these days. I lost the original design sheet so I'll have to reconstruct it -- as soon as I get some free time...

 

[Tanuki]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Yup, the safari ship is a keeper. It's one of the better CT designs, IMEHO. There's a purely merchant version of it, complete with deckplans on the 'Net.

The merchant version is at http://www.sff.net/people/kitsune/traveller/

I've got to get stats for it up one of these days. I lost the original design sheet so I'll have to reconstruct it -- as soon as I get some free time...

 

[notagoodusername]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Over at JTAS recently, Paul Drye reviewed the T20 adventure "Objects of the Mind". He gave it a favorable write-up and also picked a few nits; like why *every* desert culture in the 57th Century is Bedouin and not Bushmen, Navajo, Aborigene, etc.

This one is purely because I had used that style of tribe for New Kurdistan in my home game for the adventure this TA was loosely based on. I was tempted to rework them as an alternative tribal culture to avoid stereotype and Fremen references (those blue eyes on the cover are goggles...) but real life intefered with the writing of the TA and I hadn't the time.

IIRC, Mr. Drye liked the adventure and recommended it.

It was Rob Prior, but yep he seemed to like it and that is a worthy complement from such a distinguished Traveller community member as Mr Prior.

His one true complaint was how the 'nugget' or 'epic' nature of the adventure only allowed *one* path and one path only. The PCs needed to discover or learn *specific* information in each nugget, they needed to uncover those hints in *order*, and they needed to always react in only *one* way.

To a point I agree with this, as the deadline running behind the plot means that the players are pushed for time and mistakes can be costly. However, with the hindsight that all innexperienced writers possess, I realise now that I would have done things a little differently and reduced the liniarity (is that a real word?) of the adventure and given more GM advice on alternate routes through the adventure. My own group, for example, had a psionic teleporting chaarcter, which made things interesting...

Certain events would happen at a given time, whether the PCs followed the clues in the manner they were *supposed* to or not.

This part I defend as I am a firm beliver that adventures should have a life of thier own and function without player input. Likewise players should not always undertsand the events of an adventure thay have undertaken - epsecially if they fail.

Planning on players to 'stray' from the adventure on hand should be rather high on any GMs session preperation list; high as in Number One on that list, IMHO.

Ah, you've met my group then.... Or come to think of it, every group I have ever played with...

I believe that anyone writing an adventure should keep that in mind, not that I always succeed in doing so mind you!

I agree thoroughly, and more GM advice would be my biggest change!

Take care,

Shane

 

[notagoodusername]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Over at JTAS recently, Paul Drye reviewed the T20 adventure "Objects of the Mind". He gave it a favorable write-up and also picked a few nits; like why *every* desert culture in the 57th Century is Bedouin and not Bushmen, Navajo, Aborigene, etc.

This one is purely because I had used that style of tribe for New Kurdistan in my home game for the adventure this TA was loosely based on. I was tempted to rework them as an alternative tribal culture to avoid stereotype and Fremen references (those blue eyes on the cover are goggles...) but real life intefered with the writing of the TA and I hadn't the time.

IIRC, Mr. Drye liked the adventure and recommended it.

It was Rob Prior, but yep he seemed to like it and that is a worthy complement from such a distinguished Traveller community member as Mr Prior.

His one true complaint was how the 'nugget' or 'epic' nature of the adventure only allowed *one* path and one path only. The PCs needed to discover or learn *specific* information in each nugget, they needed to uncover those hints in *order*, and they needed to always react in only *one* way.

To a point I agree with this, as the deadline running behind the plot means that the players are pushed for time and mistakes can be costly. However, with the hindsight that all innexperienced writers possess, I realise now that I would have done things a little differently and reduced the liniarity (is that a real word?) of the adventure and given more GM advice on alternate routes through the adventure. My own group, for example, had a psionic teleporting chaarcter, which made things interesting...

Certain events would happen at a given time, whether the PCs followed the clues in the manner they were *supposed* to or not.

This part I defend as I am a firm beliver that adventures should have a life of thier own and function without player input. Likewise players should not always undertsand the events of an adventure thay have undertaken - epsecially if they fail.

Planning on players to 'stray' from the adventure on hand should be rather high on any GMs session preperation list; high as in Number One on that list, IMHO.

Ah, you've met my group then.... Or come to think of it, every group I have ever played with...

I believe that anyone writing an adventure should keep that in mind, not that I always succeed in doing so mind you!

I agree thoroughly, and more GM advice would be my biggest change!

Take care,

Shane

 

[notagoodusername]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Upon re-reading my last post, I am ashamed of a portion of what I wrote. I unfairly denigrated both the recent T20 adventure, "Objects of the Mind", and that adventure's author. That was not my intent in any way, shape, or form. I believe that "OotM" is a fine adventure, as does the reviewer whose review I spoke about.

I used "OotM" as an example of 'linear nugget' plotting use because it was newly published, had been recently reviewed, and would most likely be known to the members here (as opposed to some 'ancient' CT reprint or OOP DGP effort). Most of the 'linear' nature of "OotM" is due to the deadline central to the plot. If anything, "OotM" exhibits 'linear' plotting in a minimal form.

Thanls for the kind words Larsen! Consider me in no way feeling denigrated!

Shane

 

[notagoodusername]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Upon re-reading my last post, I am ashamed of a portion of what I wrote. I unfairly denigrated both the recent T20 adventure, "Objects of the Mind", and that adventure's author. That was not my intent in any way, shape, or form. I believe that "OotM" is a fine adventure, as does the reviewer whose review I spoke about.

I used "OotM" as an example of 'linear nugget' plotting use because it was newly published, had been recently reviewed, and would most likely be known to the members here (as opposed to some 'ancient' CT reprint or OOP DGP effort). Most of the 'linear' nature of "OotM" is due to the deadline central to the plot. If anything, "OotM" exhibits 'linear' plotting in a minimal form.

Thanls for the kind words Larsen! Consider me in no way feeling denigrated!

Shane

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
To a point I agree with this, as the deadline running behind the plot means that the players are pushed for time and mistakes can be costly. However, with the hindsight that all innexperienced writers possess, I realise now that I would have done things a little differently and reduced the liniarity (is that a real word?) of the adventure and given more GM advice on alternate routes through the adventure. My own group, for example, had a psionic teleporting chaarcter, which made things interesting...

Linearity is a word.

Hindight is a powerful, if not terribly useful tool....

This part I defend as I am a firm beliver that adventures should have a life of thier own and function without player input. Likewise players should not always undertsand the events of an adventure thay have undertaken - epsecially if they fail.

We agree on that point. However, there is a difference between giving an adventure a life of its own (my NPCs tend to have their own plots running, their own aims, etc) and shoe-horning the players into situations (note, this is not directed specifically towards the adventure as I have not read it - it is a general observation).

My players often don't know everything, even in adventures they do win. They know the things they took the time to find out about, sometimes forming entirely incorrect assumptions and acting on them. Oh well... this sometimes leads in odd directions... but it gives a sort of taste of realism that I like - fallible people working with incomplete data on complex problems making sub-optimal decisions.... but that's a lot the way life seems to work.

The trick is to have the NPCs and their plots and their interactions occur in such a way that the PCs can involve themselves in a variety of ways, not just via a single set of actions. They often blow these or entirely disregard them as they don't have all the data so they see a different picture than the GM does.

Writing an adventure, one has to step back and say "how many different ways can I put this together?" and "what are the *true* key elements that bind these nuggets one to another?". If you can extract what is true and vital, and then pare out what is not, you often end up with a looser coupling of nuggets and more of an idea of how to reorient things when your players, as they are wont, do something bizarre, unusual, or outright surprising.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
To a point I agree with this, as the deadline running behind the plot means that the players are pushed for time and mistakes can be costly. However, with the hindsight that all innexperienced writers possess, I realise now that I would have done things a little differently and reduced the liniarity (is that a real word?) of the adventure and given more GM advice on alternate routes through the adventure. My own group, for example, had a psionic teleporting chaarcter, which made things interesting...

Linearity is a word.

Hindight is a powerful, if not terribly useful tool....

This part I defend as I am a firm beliver that adventures should have a life of thier own and function without player input. Likewise players should not always undertsand the events of an adventure thay have undertaken - epsecially if they fail.

We agree on that point. However, there is a difference between giving an adventure a life of its own (my NPCs tend to have their own plots running, their own aims, etc) and shoe-horning the players into situations (note, this is not directed specifically towards the adventure as I have not read it - it is a general observation).

My players often don't know everything, even in adventures they do win. They know the things they took the time to find out about, sometimes forming entirely incorrect assumptions and acting on them. Oh well... this sometimes leads in odd directions... but it gives a sort of taste of realism that I like - fallible people working with incomplete data on complex problems making sub-optimal decisions.... but that's a lot the way life seems to work.

The trick is to have the NPCs and their plots and their interactions occur in such a way that the PCs can involve themselves in a variety of ways, not just via a single set of actions. They often blow these or entirely disregard them as they don't have all the data so they see a different picture than the GM does.

Writing an adventure, one has to step back and say "how many different ways can I put this together?" and "what are the *true* key elements that bind these nuggets one to another?". If you can extract what is true and vital, and then pare out what is not, you often end up with a looser coupling of nuggets and more of an idea of how to reorient things when your players, as they are wont, do something bizarre, unusual, or outright surprising.

 

[shield]

Timelines and locations

Adventure 9, nomads, Adventure 13 signal GK, adventure 8 prision planet, adventure 11 arcutrus station are all in the imperial held solomani rim, with no real time frame restrictions, except that they are before the Rebellion

The rest are in the marches.

Adv 7 broadsword is at Garda Vilis before the FFW (although there is not a full sworld worlds regiment - could not smuggle in all the troops and armour, and the broadswoard does not hide on the world, it just orbits under the cover of the planetary defences0.

Adv 10 safari ship is over at the border of District 268 / 5 sisters. I think its before the war, but since these were not major combat areas you could set it during the war.

Double adventure 5 is set over at the very edge of the marches in the subsector above the 5 sisters (actually in the next sector over). Its just 1 parsec from Garoo. Again this is set before the war, but not a major war area.

Double adventure 6 is set in the marches for divine intervention, Night of conquest is set over in Reavers deep. Divine intervention is set before the war - there is evidence of prewar tensions. It is located in district 268.

Apart from the broad before / during /after the war you can do them in any order.

Hope that helps
Richard

 

[shield]

Timelines and locations

Adventure 9, nomads, Adventure 13 signal GK, adventure 8 prision planet, adventure 11 arcutrus station are all in the imperial held solomani rim, with no real time frame restrictions, except that they are before the Rebellion

The rest are in the marches.

Adv 7 broadsword is at Garda Vilis before the FFW (although there is not a full sworld worlds regiment - could not smuggle in all the troops and armour, and the broadswoard does not hide on the world, it just orbits under the cover of the planetary defences0.

Adv 10 safari ship is over at the border of District 268 / 5 sisters. I think its before the war, but since these were not major combat areas you could set it during the war.

Double adventure 5 is set over at the very edge of the marches in the subsector above the 5 sisters (actually in the next sector over). Its just 1 parsec from Garoo. Again this is set before the war, but not a major war area.

Double adventure 6 is set in the marches for divine intervention, Night of conquest is set over in Reavers deep. Divine intervention is set before the war - there is evidence of prewar tensions. It is located in district 268.

Apart from the broad before / during /after the war you can do them in any order.

Hope that helps
Richard

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by RichardP:
Hope that helps
Richard [/QB]

It's a darn good start. I'll compare your notes with mine. Since I was planning to put this together and make it generally available for those who might be interested, I should like to credit you for your contribution (along with the others). Then have it posted here or at Freelance Traveller or the Traveller Downport or wherever.

That okay?

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by RichardP:
Hope that helps
Richard [/QB]

It's a darn good start. I'll compare your notes with mine. Since I was planning to put this together and make it generally available for those who might be interested, I should like to credit you for your contribution (along with the others). Then have it posted here or at Freelance Traveller or the Traveller Downport or wherever.

That okay?

 

[Whipsnade]

RichardP and Tom 'Kaladron,

Wow, nice start to a very intriguing project! I'm sure any fan site will love hosting the finished work.

May I make one tiny suggestion? A table or chart of sorts that summarizes your findings? You could have entries like sector, port ratings, pre/post 5th FW, or a Y/N check as to whether the adventure is strongly 'coupled' to any specific requirement like a water world for 'Nomads' or a little visited backwater for 'Chamax'.

The table could allow GMs to quickly scan for attributes they want or don't want.

Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

RichardP and Tom 'Kaladron,

Wow, nice start to a very intriguing project! I'm sure any fan site will love hosting the finished work.

May I make one tiny suggestion? A table or chart of sorts that summarizes your findings? You could have entries like sector, port ratings, pre/post 5th FW, or a Y/N check as to whether the adventure is strongly 'coupled' to any specific requirement like a water world for 'Nomads' or a little visited backwater for 'Chamax'.

The table could allow GMs to quickly scan for attributes they want or don't want.

Sincerely,
Larsen