One tenth of stars may support life

[Straybow]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
Plus IF we find a planet with life then there is only a 25% chance of that carbon based life using the proper left hand right hand versions of sugars and proteins.

Originally posted by Anthony:
The odds may be better than that; handedness of proteins and sugars could easily be linked in a non-random manner, and there may in fact be a very mild selection effect for handedness of proteins (caused by asymmetry in the weak nuclear force).

Alien DNA/RNA could be completely incompatible with Earth life, so that alien viruses would not be able to survive within Earth-based cellular biology. It would be like trying to run M68000 based code on an Intel x86 based processor.

Likewise alien bacteria might have difficulty coping with our cellular metabolism. They would be just as likely allergic to us as we would be to them.

There are at least 4 other amino acids among the 21 commonly found in Earth life that have geometric qualities similar to GATC such that they could be substituted into DNA without changing it's structure, and at least 4 more that have properties that could be somewhat less compatible. Alien genetics and RNA coding could be far different from Earth life.

Proteins based on the same 21 amino acids (or perhaps including others) could still be non-poisonous or even edible. Digestive allergic potential could be gauged by simple tests.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
Nope, we're either alone or the top of the chain, I'm afraid of either, and hope I'm very wrong...
Pappy

Just... "remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth"

The Galaxy Song from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" (which I must remember to rent again soon

)

Oh, and P.S. Bugga Bugga!

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Nope, full of Aliens... spaceships, too...

 

[eiladayn]

So......Where are they? Not here, not within our electronic earshot even, not near enough to say anything to us.....sorry, I don't think they're there.

Pappy

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Perhaps a wee bit too soon to tell, milord, our acutal "earshot" not being much...we may have already been recieving signals, but as of yet do not know how to interpret them, or they are too faint amid the background of space noise... even if we do, is the culture sending them out still in existance? Or are we getting thier old broadcasts (Someone tape "I Love Gypherphlx" for me...) after the culture has long died away...

The recent Discovery of hundreds of different Gas Giants in many Star systems suggests that there is indeed a Grand Format at work, based on natural law... I bet you a Quarter that Life itself is part of it...

I base this on, oddly enough, ourselves... consider the acheivements of man, for good or ill, the advances made in the last century alone... we proved that organisms (with technical aid) can leave thier natural environment for space, extend our own lives through medical science, and by thunder, even replicate the workings of the sun... this means something on a cosmic scale... as we appear to be the only form of earth life that can do these things, and develop these advances, only a tick of the cosmic clock past from where we began to walk upright...
an insignifigant amount of time, relatively. This conversation itself supports that view, that you and I can converse, express Ideas across a vast distance in this manner, is nothing to sneeze at...

Perhaps we are not Natives of Earth after all... Primates are close to us, yes, in many ways, but consider milord, The Nose. Why are our noses shaped as they are, when all other primates have forward facing nostrils? We seem adapted to be able to work in an aquatic, not only a terrestrial environment... and are the only primate willing (eager?) to submerge ourselves totally in water... for enjoyment!

Crackpots like Eric von Dainikken (Author of Chariot of the Gods) have suggested that all humanity is, is a race of slaves set on earth to mine gold for our alien overlords... which is a considerable jump of logic, to say the least... but who knows for sure... Man does have unique anomalies in his very structure that we always take for granted...

Time will tell, Lords...

 

[Ran Targas]

Actually Baron, there is a growing number of main stream anthropologists who believe there was a semi-aquatic ancestor in our past. Sub-cutaneous fat, bouyant babies, hydrodynamic body hair, a reinforcement of the mammalian dive reflex, etc. all point to a proto-human living in water. This could have been a river delta or beach or even rift valley lakes. Regardless, it is an interesting theory.

 

[Listlurker]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
Nope, we're either alone or the top of the chain, I'm afraid of either, and hope I'm very wrong and they're just hiding from us. Perhaps we're the butt of some great cosmic joke and when we get to Alpha Centauri, or Barnard's Star they're all gonna jump out and go "Bugga, Bugga!!!!"
Pappy

It's important to remember where the Sol system is located on the galactic disc, I think.

Current information indicates that more-advanced civilizations (if, indeed, they exist) would come from the older part of the galaxy -- namely close(r) to the galactic core.

The Sol system is almost as far from the galactic core as one can get, in astronomical terms. Moreover, if other sentient life does exist in the galaxy, much of it will be situated *between* the theoretical "most-advanced elder races" near the galactic core and the Sol system.

If some "Gleebian Alliance" near galactic core is boldly going where no non-human has gone before, seeking out new life and new civilizations -- even with an engineering end-run around the lightspeed barrier to speed things up -- our alien friends are going to have a lot to explore and encounter before they get all the way out here in the galactic boondocks.

And again, why would they bother to come here, except perhaps for covert scholarly observation?

As far as we've come, humans are still a "loose cannon" species; we're still too warlike (too warlike = willing to risk annihilating ourselves as a species just to keep our political enemies of the moment in line) and we haven't yet learned how to stop killing our planet, or how to feed all our people.

I am NOT some naive, tree-hugging, ultra-pacifistic, utopian lefty. I'm just saying that we have a long way to go yet in finding practical solutions to the dangers we create daily for ourselves and our world.

Basically, we're still very dangerous to ourselves and others in fundamental ways.

What would an advanced race gain from interacting openly with us? What would their galactic society gain from dragging we relative primitives up the gravity well and onto the galactic stage?

Not much. I wouldn't be surprised if our "Gleebian Alliance" (presuming they even exist at all) has interdicted our solar system (a la Traveller) and declared it the equivalent of a Red Zone -- if, of course, the Gleebian Alliance has even probed/travelled out this far from galactic center yet, as I mentioned above.

I figure this is our current challenge: get our act together sufficiently as a race to survive long enough to make it up the gravity well, and out into extra-solar space on our own.

Then, maybe, the Gleebian Alliance, or whatever, (if such advanced races exist) will consider us graduated from "galactic preschool" and make some form of contact.

Whether we're alone or not, I believe the onus remains on us. No "wise alien saviors" are going to bail us out; we have to prove our species' viability -- to ourselves, if to no one else.

My opinion, anyway,

LL

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

And a Darn fine one, Sir!

The very classifications of Red and Amber Zones reflect this, a risk to Travellers due to internal struggle/planetary warfare, among other conditions. Mr. Miller was certainly on the stick with this concept in its presentation.

Consider the poor Gleebian, coming all this way, just to be blown up inadvertently by a stray MOAB or the like... I think you may be on to something there... a truly global government that works for every human on earth (and Cats) with out everyone being barcoded or other such Khan Noonien Singh stuff would be a great day indeed... the next day would be even better, if the UFO landed and said
"Welcome" and perhaps "Finally!", what?

 

[eiladayn]

I don't know guys, I think we shoulda heard something by now. As for UFO's.....well I can't imagine going to all the trouble to invent a stardrive and seek out new species just to play hide-and-seek with them and their radar.

Pappy

 

[Jame]

Then what about all those UFO sightings? They could be the "Gleeban Alliance," and the government is aware of them, but is too stupid to get its act together and go meet them, and is covering them up from the public to keep it stupid and scared!

 

[Nurd_boy]

Here me know a thought of speculation and wild randon musings....

1) since the early 1800's (the 'industrial age')technology has advanced faster, in less time than any other period in history.

2) development has only increased even more sharply over the last century (1900)...

sure, there are alot of logical reasons, technology feeds itself and all that...but boring for gaming....sooo,why?...well, with marconi and radio started stated broadcasting (1900ish), we anounced to the universe 'we are here'..and got an answer, undercover alien agents ('droids?..STNG's data like, but better?) are among us...grooming us for some future (warrior?) role?....no one has ever responded to our calls...why because we are 'restricted contact' by the galctic powers, no SETI contact...same reason...now,(for the campaign) we are needed, distant tides have turned...but hunamity isn't ready for the shock of a universe filled with conflict...or is it?

can humans save a galaxy that keeps them isolated? even to save themselves? can modern humans accept that there are 'others'?....

hmmmm, we shall see....

 

[eiladayn]

Maybe that's what happened to the Neanderthals, they just sorta disappeared. Maybe the aliens came and looked at them and us and said "Look how sturdy and resilient those fellows are. Let's use THEM for our warrior race.

GREAT.... So NOW when my starship gets to Alpha Centauri, its gonna be Alley Oop who jumps out and goes "Bugga, Bugga!" Just MARVELOUS!

Pappy

 

[salamander]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
[QB] Maybe that's what happened to the Neanderthals, they just sorta disappeared. Maybe the aliens came and looked at them and us and said "Look how sturdy and resilient those fellows are. Let's use THEM for our warrior race.

You're not a Stephen Baxter fan, are you?

 

[GJD]

And again, why would they bother to come here, except perhaps for covert scholarly observation?
[/QB]

We do have a rather nice view from here...

Life? is ther, isn't there? I recently heard it described as the goldilocks equation - not too hot, not too cold, not too far, not too close and so on.

However, discovery of potentially liquid water on other worlds (under the ice on Europa, possibly under ice on Pluto, tidally heated from orbital ressonance with Charon, Neptune and the Sun - I was surprised too) and life on earth in startlingly hostile envioronments, bacteria found in boiling sulfuric acid, for instance, open up the playing field a bit. I'd be stunned if there wasn't some form of life elswhere.

After all, it would be a terrible waste of space.

G.

 

[eiladayn]

Originally posted by salamander:
You're not a Stephen Baxter fan, are you? [/QB]

Sorry, who? (Apparently not,huh?) So, I like to read share a title or two and I'll buy one.

Did Mr. Baxter write about Neanderthals in space?

Pappy

 

[Listlurker]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
I don't know guys, I think we shoulda heard something by now. As for UFO's.....well I can't imagine going to all the trouble to invent a stardrive and seek out new species just to play hide-and-seek with them and their radar.

Pappy

Again, friend Pappy, the Sol system is a loooooooooong way away from where the more-advanced races are most likely to come from, near galactic center!

Even if we allow for the aliens possessing stardrive tech, it's an extremely long haul (both ways) from the galactic core to here, and if we're going to accept that the galaxy is home to many sentient races, then there will be a lot of interesting contacts to be made before our alien friends ever make it out this far -- something which will slow their arrival even further.

Again, I don't think pre-space primitives like ourselves would be worth such a long trip out and back to any alien race -- except perhaps to alien xeno-anthropologists who like to study such things. My ex and I used to joke that the only aliens out this far are anthropology graduate students from lousy schools -- they get the crappy unglamorous work-study terms far, too far from home.

(This spun into another joke that alien abductions are actually the work of bored/drunk alien frat boys -- but that's another post)

Back to the issue: To carry the anthropologist idea more seriously, how many masses of people on Earth bother to go down ino the Amazon jungles and make full contact with the stone-age tribes living in isolation there? Basically, it's just scientists and National Geographic types -- and most of them study covertly, so as not to upset the balance of the cultures they're observing (Most of the Amazonian tribes I'm talking about don't even know that there's any other kind of world beyond the jungle -- they never venture outside the rainforest).

The Amazon rainforest is a lot more readily accessible to us, than the Sol system would be to advanced aliens at galactic core, even ones with stardrive -- so I still believe that we're not going to get much alien attention (even if they do know we're here) from anyone except researcher aliens. Not until we bring ourselves out into the galaxy-at-large, anyway.

But again, these are just my opinions,

LL

 

[Listlurker]

Originally posted by Jame]:
Then what about all those UFO sightings? They could be the "Gleeban Alliance," and the government is aware of them, but is too stupid to get its act together and go meet them, and is covering them up from the public to keep it stupid and scared!

I do believe something unusual happened at Roswell in 1947, Jamej, and that the government knows more about the incident than it is telling.

Still, if it was a "saucer crash", I would liken it to a bush pilot crashing his Cessna supply plane into old-growth forest during a blizzard in Alaska -- I don't think the aliens meant to come here -- they were probably dealing with a damaged stardrive, or they were lost (took a wrong turn at Aldebaran).

Perhaps they *were* scientific observers, once again (we'd just dropped the first atomic bombs two years earlier, after all, and that might've sparked some interest), but I really don't believe the Roswell incident means that Earth is on any regular alien travel route.

My opinion, anyway,

LL

 

[Listlurker]

Originally posted by Nurd_boy:
can humans save a galaxy that keeps them isolated? even to save themselves? can modern humans accept that there are 'others'?....

hmmmm, we shall see....

Heh. Spoken like a true gamer, Nurd Boy -- or like a guy who writes movie pitches!

If your scenario proves prophetic, and humanity is forced to deal with galactic-scale issues before it's sorted itself out, that will be frightening, I think.

It would be a sink-or-swim situation; I imagine humanity would have to get itself together very quickly, or be crushed under by its own flaws and conceits.

Can you imagine some racist telling the Gleebian Alliance races, "No, no we pinkish ones are the human master race!"?

Amoeba Gleebian: "Actually, you're all the same race, human. Don't you know this?"

Racist: "No, no! There are many important differences! There are whites and blacks and ..."

Crustacean Gleebian: "Are the hairy ones smarter than you bald ones? Hahahahaha!"

Serpent Gleebian: (hissing laughter) "That human there has brownish eyes. Is it superior to you blue-eyed humans?"

Pentapod Gleebian: "It must be! I can't believe these humans still war over pigmentation and secondary cultural characteristics."

Ant Gleebian: (to racist) "Human, I don't even see in the same spectrum as you do. These colors you describe mean nothing to me."

Anyway -- you get my drift through my cheesy example. Humanity would be under intense time-pressure to grow up. I honestly don't know if we could do it.

But it would make for an interesting SF campaign!

One of the things I always liked about Marc Miller's original timeline for the Classic Traveller universe, is that he seemed to understand these issues.

I don't know what canon says now, but it used to be that when humans in Traveller made initial contact with their first major alien culture (the Aslan) what did they do? Misunderstood them horribly and launched a series of devastating wars!

Likewise, fear of outsiders finally brought unity and equality to the sons and daughters of Earth -- in the form of the fascist Solomani regime, the worst fascist regime since Hitler!

I don't believe humanity is necessarily that flawed or evil (if all people were as bad as we sometimes like to believe, the world would not function) but I give Marc Miller respect for resisting the urge to idealize humanity too readily.

We can be angels or monsters. The choice is ours. Every day.

Whoa, I'm getting damn philosophical and rambling terribly. It's very late here. My apologies!

Again (back on track) some very cool campaign ideas, Nurd Boy.

LL, who would sleep if the insomnia would loosen up

 

[Listlurker]

Originally posted by GJD:
I'd be stunned if there wasn't some form of life elswhere.

After all, it would be a terrible waste of space.

G.

Indeed. For the record, I do believe that there is life out there, definitely. If we get lucky, we'll find some evidence of this on Mars. If not, Europa, as you mentioned, would seem a near-sure bet if probed.

As for sentient life? Yes, most likely. I expect it will be extremely different from anything we've conceived of so far (since most of what we've imagined to date has had to be accessible and easily-understandable for books, TV, movies, and games). The universe, however, cares nothing for sales or ratings.

I do worry about our ability to successfully interact with any sentient aliens we might encounter.

Current research seems to support the conclusion that porpoises (aka "dolphins") are truly sentient as we define the word -- that they are, in fact, the second sentient species on Earth -- but even though they are friendly and apparently willing, we humans are having a terrible time establishing true communications with them. They clearly understand us to a large degree, and can be taught to communicate using a symbolic language -- but the porpoise mindset, if you will, is so alien to our own -- and the frames of reference for our two cultures and environments are so dissimilar -- that we humans are still struggling to bridge the gap.

If we humans are having such trouble communicating with another sentient species right here on Earth, I do wonder how we'll fare when we encounter something extraterrestrial and *extremely* alien.

Stories tend to do a quick end-run around the problem (the communication barrier has already been broken, or someone knows how to break it) because without this fix, the story grinds to a halt.

Once again, the universe is unlikely to prove so accomodating.

What if the plausible theory that there are older (and thus, potentially more advanced) aliens living closer to the older part of the galaxy (i.e. the core) than where we live, proves to be false? What if there are no "advanced aliens" to show us how they broke the communications code?

What if the sentient aliens out there aren't any further advanced than we are when we finally meet them?

What if, as someone posted previously, we're the most advanced species the galaxy has spawned?

In any case, I think there's definitely life -- and probably sentient life -- out there somewhere. I have no doubt that meeting such life is going to be weirder than we have ever imagined.

It sure would be exciting to be on that contact team, though, wouldn't it?

LL

 

[eiladayn]

Originally posted by Listlurker:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eiladayn:
I don't know guys, I think we shoulda heard something by now. As for UFO's.....well I can't imagine going to all the trouble to invent a stardrive and seek out new species just to play hide-and-seek with them and their radar.

Pappy

Again, friend Pappy, the Sol system is a loooooooooong way away from where the more-advanced races are most likely to come from, near galactic center!

Even if we allow for the aliens possessing stardrive tech, it's an extremely long haul (both ways) from the galactic core to here, and if we're going to accept that the galaxy is home to many sentient races, then there will be a lot of interesting contacts to be made before our alien friends ever make it out this far -- something which will slow their arrival even further.

Again, I don't think pre-space primitives like ourselves would be worth such a long trip out and back to any alien race -- except perhaps to alien xeno-anthropologists who like to study such things.

LL </font>[/QUOTE]But.....The galaxy is 8 to 10 billion years old and if there are spacefaring aliens in the area of the Shapely Center (something I doubt, too much radiation there) then they could have been here travelling at 1/2 the speed of light a LOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

But I don't even ask for a ship, since we haven't seen any, how about a single glimmer of a radiated signal of any kind....nada.

My point originally was that the study quoted above actually HURT the chances of life outside our own biosphere becaquse it acutally cuts DOWN the area to be considered to a torus of volume around the galactic center, eliminating quite a bit of the galxay's volume and a number of stars.

Pappy