I would say that the area in question, except for the radioactive core, is misleading. Stars & clouds of gas and dust change orbits; especialy when galactic collisions occur. Thus metallic stars could be fairly well spread out around the galaxy, with only a bias for metallic and safe stars in that ring. Keep up the dream.
One tenth of stars may support life
- Thread starter Father Fletch
- Start date
that view is far too limited. have they no generals who wish to expand their pan-galactic empire? no priests who wish to convert us? no recruiters looking for soldiers? no businessmen looking for markets? no slavers looking for captives? no prospectors looking for rare materials? no bored rich kids looking for a good time? no automated probes wandering from system to system doing surveys? no social engineers seeking to ensure their survival by spreading everywhere they can? no sexual perverts looking for new experiences? no nobles-oblige (sp?) types looking to elevate us? no criminals looking to rule their own little world? no politicians looking for votes? no ham radio operator equivilants looking to talk to whoever they can reach? no dreamers trying to prove there's other intelligent life in the universe?
there's nothing out there.
Nothing's pretty strong, too. Maybe life, maybe sapients,but NOT nearby and if they ARE nearby then we're as advanced or more advanced than they are.
Maybe the dinosaur killer got 'em, it darn near did for life here. There have been several large rock falls here on the green earth, maybe in 99% of the cases it does for the life it smacks. Maybe we were very very lucky to have survived to maturity here.
Pappy
Maybe the dinosaur killer got 'em, it darn near did for life here. There have been several large rock falls here on the green earth, maybe in 99% of the cases it does for the life it smacks. Maybe we were very very lucky to have survived to maturity here.
Pappy
no, it isn't. if divine intervention is dismissed then the chances against life arising naturally are high. especially given the reasonable assumption that at least some cultures would be billions of years ahead of ours, to say that there is no life in the universe requires only pointing to the silent unmarked universe and saying, "thus". to say that there might be other life in the universe requires acceptance of undemonstrated processes, inventive explanations as to why we have seen and heard nothing, and other rationalizations unsupported by any significant evidence.
ah, who knows, maybe twenty generations from now we'll find slime puddles or something. but until then the idea that there may be life anywhere else is a matter of faith. reading the dispatches from the mars landers' one gets a sense of a religious quest. I believe it is.
Listlurker
SOC-7
Friend Pappy,But.....The galaxy is 8 to 10 billion years old and if there are spacefaring aliens in the area of the Shapely Center (something I doubt, too much radiation there) then they could have been here travelling at 1/2 the speed of light a LOOOOOOOOONG time ago.
But I don't even ask for a ship, since we haven't seen any, how about a single glimmer of a radiated signal of any kind....nada.
My point originally was that the study quoted above actually HURT the chances of life outside our own biosphere becaquse it acutally cuts DOWN the area to be considered to a torus of volume around the galactic center, eliminating quite a bit of the galxay's volume and a number of stars.
Pappy
Fair enough. This is what I get for posting too late at night, and for not being clear.
I've been discussing various related topics and not flagging when I'm speaking for myself, and when I'm speaking based off of pre-conditions others have put forward ("if conditions", for lack of a better term).
To clarify:
Do I believe there is life out there? Yes, but by life, I mean everything from microbes on up ...
Do I believe there is sentient life in our galaxy? Very probably yes. But by sentient life, I'm only referring to life which "thinks" -- I would include porpoises and some whales in this category, for example -- I'm not pre-supposing anything else (culture, tool use, level of advancement, spaceflight)
Do I believe there is spacefaring sentient life out there in the galaxy, creatures more advanced than humanity, who have found a way to sidestep the lightspeed barrier? It seems unlikely, as much as I might prefer it to be otherwise.
When discussing the galactic-core-as-home for such advanced beings, I was only offering the most common theory for their point of origin if such beings existed (some folks wanted to discuss along those lines, IIRC).
Your data is newer than what I was working from (although I had come across it before, and promptly forgot it. D'oh!) and it does change the scenario we were working from substantially. It makes my jokingly-described "Gleebian Alliance" of starfaring races even more unlikely.
The one thing I do stubbornly believe, however, is that IF we take as given that advanced, starfaring races exist, then I highly doubt that Earth is of significant or general interest to those races. Taking advanced races as a given also implies a galaxy replete with life, with life existing at every point along the developmental scale between microbes and the Gleebian races.
As much as it goes against the human sense of self-importance (some might well say arrogance), IF such a lively galaxy exists, I can't imagine that our little pre-hyperspace world out on the edge of the galactic rim would be of much interest to anyone.
Someone mentioned galactic conquerors and C19th century "culture bearers", but this ignores the "if conditions" which allow the advanced races scenario. IF the galaxy holds advanced life, then there will likely be a lot of it -- and such beings will be more enmeshed in their own politics, than coming out to bother with us primitives.
The "Jannissaries" SF novels aside, asking why the advancd aliens haven't conquered us or co-opted us into their politics (presuming again that they do exist, for the discussion) seems rather akin to asking why the White House or Islamic extremists haven't conquered or co-opted primitive Amazonian tribesmen to fight in their ongoing struggle.
Anyway, that's where I'm coming from. Others may see it differently, and that's why they call it discussion.
I'm going to be offline for an indeterminate length of time, starting tomorrow. I trust everyone can keep a lively, civil conversation going in my absence.
Thanks for talking,
LL
STILL.....can't agree,but getting closer. I would think that stars of our little star's spectral type, that are also solitary SHOULD be VERY attractive to ANY selfrespecting Gleebian explorer, because IF solar systems are as common as we now believe them to be AND the Gleebians are ANYTHING like their friendly neighbors here on our little dirtball then earth should draw them like moths to a flame. It gleams like a blue and white marble in the sunlight of our little star that is JUST the right age and JUST the right size and JUST the solitary little g=star that seems to pop out a fine family of planets. Hoohah! A great spot for setting down roots!
Yep, Fermi did say"where are they" and he was right in voicing that doubt, but Sagan seemed to think there was an alien race at every galactic intersection no matter how small the streets.
I honestly think the jury's still out on life, even on sapience, if you ask me, chimps are sapient and so are gorillas as well as porpoises, (I was a Communications major, read a lot about those American Sign Language experiments with great apes),but not so sapient as we humans. Nope it ain't like being pregnant, you CAN have degrees of sapience,something we need to work out soon. But there's no sapient race within 50 LY using radio or television and beyond that I think all we can do is wait and see.
Pappy
Yep, Fermi did say"where are they" and he was right in voicing that doubt, but Sagan seemed to think there was an alien race at every galactic intersection no matter how small the streets.
I honestly think the jury's still out on life, even on sapience, if you ask me, chimps are sapient and so are gorillas as well as porpoises, (I was a Communications major, read a lot about those American Sign Language experiments with great apes),but not so sapient as we humans. Nope it ain't like being pregnant, you CAN have degrees of sapience,something we need to work out soon. But there's no sapient race within 50 LY using radio or television and beyond that I think all we can do is wait and see.
Pappy
Listlurker
SOC-7
Pappy,
Managed to have a few spare minutes to look back in before I leave town ...
I think I see where you're coming from now, and I begin to better appreciate why you aver that Earth would be a locus of interest, under the conditions you described in your post. Still not sure I'm willing to go there all the way yet, but I will take it up with the space physicists I know, and get their feedback on all of this.
Maybe by the time I come back this way, I'll have some interesting bits to add to the discussion -- these acquaintances of mine are involved in pretty cutting-edge stuff, so they may give us all some fun new details to chew over.
In any case, if I can see my way to your view, I will say so -- and even if I can't agree, I enjoy the exchange of views. Thanks for the civil discussion of considered ideas. It's appreciated.
Be well,
LL
Listlurker
SOC-7
Sigh. I thought the phrase "I do [...] believe" sufficiently flagged that I had stepped into the realm of stating personal opinion/belief at this point. I was no longer putting out ideas meant as serious premises for debate -- nor was I trying to presume anything, arrogant or otherwise -- I was merely trying to give a glimpse as to where my non-rational biases lay.
Pappy gave me new info which has already allowed me to pry loose some of those persistent irrationalities. You offered little, save scorn and implied insult.
I'm sorry you misunderstood. I shall endeavor to be clearer in the future.
Easy guys, you both are saying those things YOU BELIEVE to be true, so was I. Not one of us has any PERSONAL experience in galactic exploration beyond looking through a telescope, correct? All we know is what we have seen or been told by some one who is recognized by others as an authority. Since all we have is this feeble bit of observation of a realm that we know has existed for 10 billion years that we have been observing for no more than 5,000 years, then there is little for any one of us to quote that ISN'T conjecture and theory.
I'm afraid I've become a bit sceptical in my older days and so have slowly moved from the "there's life everywhere out there!" camp to the "Hmmmm...I really don't see what there is to give us much hope" camp, but when the first saucer full of invaders from Mars lands, I'll be among the first to die when I run out to meet them and beg for a ride in their marvelous machines.
Pappy
I'm afraid I've become a bit sceptical in my older days and so have slowly moved from the "there's life everywhere out there!" camp to the "Hmmmm...I really don't see what there is to give us much hope" camp, but when the first saucer full of invaders from Mars lands, I'll be among the first to die when I run out to meet them and beg for a ride in their marvelous machines.
Pappy
Regarding the post which fleetingly mentioned all lifeforms being related:
That was the premise in Niven's "Known Space" books; apparently the Slavers (Thrint) spread yeastlike spores throughout the galaxy so as to have an abundant and tasty food supply from the creatures that evolved from it on the various habitable worlds... and indeed one minor functionary whose ship was in stasis for umpteen bazillion years found humans to be quite tasty (shudder)...
That was the premise in Niven's "Known Space" books; apparently the Slavers (Thrint) spread yeastlike spores throughout the galaxy so as to have an abundant and tasty food supply from the creatures that evolved from it on the various habitable worlds... and indeed one minor functionary whose ship was in stasis for umpteen bazillion years found humans to be quite tasty (shudder)...
M
Malenfant
Guest
Yeah. threads on this sort of topic usually devolve into matters of (occasionally religious) belief and opinion anyway. I think the various arguments must have circulated through this thread at least twice already
Yeah, I've read that too, I'm a real buff of fighting sail stuff, Master and Commander, Hornblower etc. I just like it. Anyway I could see a starfaring race "seeding" worlds that show promise for later use. Really don't think WE'RE the result of such a thing, but I could see it happening.
Pappy
Pappy
Yeah, I've read that too, I'm a real buff of fighting sail stuff, Master and Commander, Hornblower etc. I just like it. Anyway I could see a starfaring race "seeding" worlds that show promise for later use. Really don't think WE'RE the result of such a thing, but I could see it happening.
Pappy
Pappy
I read a short story once that had a similar premise.
If I may butcher the plot: the first Earth interstellar craft was approached by an unknown alien craft (much larger and threatening). The aliens only question was "from where do you come?" Most of the story was devoted to the Earthlings trying to answer this question.
The first twist came with the discovery that human DNA showed similarities to the genetic material of an ancient race. The clincher was that this ancient race had used the primordial Earth as a trash dump. The aliens ending comment was something like "how embarassed the Ancients will be when the find out what they are responsible for".
It was a great read, very humorous, I only wish I could recall and tell it better.
If I may butcher the plot: the first Earth interstellar craft was approached by an unknown alien craft (much larger and threatening). The aliens only question was "from where do you come?" Most of the story was devoted to the Earthlings trying to answer this question.
The first twist came with the discovery that human DNA showed similarities to the genetic material of an ancient race. The clincher was that this ancient race had used the primordial Earth as a trash dump. The aliens ending comment was something like "how embarassed the Ancients will be when the find out what they are responsible for".
It was a great read, very humorous, I only wish I could recall and tell it better.
