Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
..So you could stiff them at the pump with somone else's ship's identity who has a line of credit there! 
Orbital refineries
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
Assumes a line of credit is available.
One of the reasons for the "Bloody hard to forge" cash. The requisite levels are hard to come by, and the equipment harder.
Lines of credit are BLOODY rare IMTU. Someone has to fork over the specie or cash. ESPECIALLY at the chandlery (Ship's Supply) and collier (Fuel and LS Recharge) stations.
Ran: Stealth requires some way or reducing one's signature. For the IR band, ships are unlikely to have low enough temps to effectively screen. I figure the stealth kit to reduce the EM, and the actives returns, and hence targeting, but on passives, given that we can track up a 1 km rock at 100 Kelvin at 20LS with small scopes, that leaves little hope for a ship with a surface temp of at least 250 kelvin. (-23 C!) And cooling willl require some way to shed the heat.
No, stealth of the IR sig is going to require Famile Spoufolam & Uncle Schmalbert to work hand in had to TL 16....
I can see a short term (1/2 hour, maybe) suppression system involving shedding lots of compressed gasses through vents, but I can't see a long term good enough to "infiltrate" to a GG.
Just too much heated mass, and way too much power in use... and hence, too much IR sig.
One of the reasons for the "Bloody hard to forge" cash. The requisite levels are hard to come by, and the equipment harder.
Lines of credit are BLOODY rare IMTU. Someone has to fork over the specie or cash. ESPECIALLY at the chandlery (Ship's Supply) and collier (Fuel and LS Recharge) stations.
Ran: Stealth requires some way or reducing one's signature. For the IR band, ships are unlikely to have low enough temps to effectively screen. I figure the stealth kit to reduce the EM, and the actives returns, and hence targeting, but on passives, given that we can track up a 1 km rock at 100 Kelvin at 20LS with small scopes, that leaves little hope for a ship with a surface temp of at least 250 kelvin. (-23 C!) And cooling willl require some way to shed the heat.
No, stealth of the IR sig is going to require Famile Spoufolam & Uncle Schmalbert to work hand in had to TL 16....
I can see a short term (1/2 hour, maybe) suppression system involving shedding lots of compressed gasses through vents, but I can't see a long term good enough to "infiltrate" to a GG.
Just too much heated mass, and way too much power in use... and hence, too much IR sig.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Ah but Aramis, what if the fake transponder code is for one of the fuel Shuttle ships?
Hard to fake, yes. Hence the cost of the bloody devices, and a limited number of places one could even acquire one! (in the Marches, maybe 5-6 worlds qualify, and two of these if you don't owe Arden any favors, forgetaboutit.)
Hard to fake, yes. Hence the cost of the bloody devices, and a limited number of places one could even acquire one! (in the Marches, maybe 5-6 worlds qualify, and two of these if you don't owe Arden any favors, forgetaboutit.)
Fake transponders are not "Sneaking"... they're outright bluffing.
You'll be spotted coming in, Liam. Maybe mistaken for someone else, but you WILL be spotted by anyone looking with serious intent.
This is infiltration, but isn't stealth. It is subterfuge, too.
You'll be spotted coming in, Liam. Maybe mistaken for someone else, but you WILL be spotted by anyone looking with serious intent.
This is infiltration, but isn't stealth. It is subterfuge, too.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Aramis--well,
where there's a will, there's a way. And wherever someone sets up an honest business, there'll be someone looking to cut the corners. True--such subterfuge is possible. I wasn't arguing for infiltration!
If you had TL-G+ stealth it be child's play.
And hardly any of the scurvy lot out there have any of those toys to play with!
where there's a will, there's a way. And wherever someone sets up an honest business, there'll be someone looking to cut the corners. True--such subterfuge is possible. I wasn't arguing for infiltration!
If you had TL-G+ stealth it be child's play.
And hardly any of the scurvy lot out there have any of those toys to play with!
P
Pickles
Guest
On the whole, given the difficuties of unseen refuelling and the relatively low cost of refined or unrefined fuel, I don't think there's much motivation for illegal skimming.
There are still lots of other options. Maybe the system government has no problem with free skimming - a gas giant is essentially a limitless resource, and most sensible businesses will prefer the safety and convenience of the truck stop.
If you really don't want to pay, there are always alternative sources like comets and icy asteroids. Even if you had a government arrogant enough to claim rights to all of these, there's no way it could enforce such legislation. Then you'd again be faced with having to hide your ship's identity in some way, or making sure you never came back through these parts.
There are still lots of other options. Maybe the system government has no problem with free skimming - a gas giant is essentially a limitless resource, and most sensible businesses will prefer the safety and convenience of the truck stop.
If you really don't want to pay, there are always alternative sources like comets and icy asteroids. Even if you had a government arrogant enough to claim rights to all of these, there's no way it could enforce such legislation. Then you'd again be faced with having to hide your ship's identity in some way, or making sure you never came back through these parts.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Bromgrev--True enough with "unlawful skimming". And any system that has such orbital refineries will have the ability to defend them.
Given the costs, most if not all will pay for the fuel, if just to save travel time to and from the GG and get on with their insystem travel business.
As you said, for the frugal, there are iceteroids, icy moonlets etc, and other more time-consuming means of getting Lhyd in a system (unless it has no GG, no asteroid belts, and you're forced to get it off planet!).
But that, is another can of worms entirely...
Given the costs, most if not all will pay for the fuel, if just to save travel time to and from the GG and get on with their insystem travel business.
As you said, for the frugal, there are iceteroids, icy moonlets etc, and other more time-consuming means of getting Lhyd in a system (unless it has no GG, no asteroid belts, and you're forced to get it off planet!).
But that, is another can of worms entirely...
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
All the "who pays for the defence questions" triggered the rare thing called a thought in my brain:
Don't you have to defend the gas giants anyway? Otherwise any invader fleet can jump in and refuel there easily.
Don't you have to defend the gas giants anyway? Otherwise any invader fleet can jump in and refuel there easily.
Major Worlds (pop 8+) probably can afford to defend the GG's if there are not too many of them. Major battle fleets are probably not going to be more than a major world can defend against.
Anthony: You're forgetting that warfare is about resources... and GG's are a major resource. No sane military sends all their forces on the offense, nor on the pure-defense role; most use a mixture of those two with key resource denial roles.
Anyway...
You'd want a number of patrol craft at any GG... one for each system in range of the patrol craft... when hostiles jump in to refuel, they immediately disperse to their targets... A few hours warning is better than none, and this provides all in reach systems a chance to be prepared. An actual military combat force? no, not unless you can afford to deny it against a typical enemy organizational operational fleet element.
Anthony: You're forgetting that warfare is about resources... and GG's are a major resource. No sane military sends all their forces on the offense, nor on the pure-defense role; most use a mixture of those two with key resource denial roles.
Anyway...
You'd want a number of patrol craft at any GG... one for each system in range of the patrol craft... when hostiles jump in to refuel, they immediately disperse to their targets... A few hours warning is better than none, and this provides all in reach systems a chance to be prepared. An actual military combat force? no, not unless you can afford to deny it against a typical enemy organizational operational fleet element.
P
Pickles
Guest
Actually, hydrogen is considerably more abundant than sand ...
I wouldn't really think of it as 'defending' the GG in a military situation, any more than an invading force would try to 'take' the GG. The in-atmosphere SDBs would be there to make life difficult for the invading fleet's refuelling craft, where they have the tactical 'home ground' advantage.
I wouldn't really think of it as 'defending' the GG in a military situation, any more than an invading force would try to 'take' the GG. The in-atmosphere SDBs would be there to make life difficult for the invading fleet's refuelling craft, where they have the tactical 'home ground' advantage.
Anthony:
those others are not readily detected at 4+ Pc.... GG's are.
The GG is the most likely place for hostiles to refuel. You want a picket, if not a battle force as well, there to spread detect deeper in-empire.
That "Most Abundant Resource" is most readily available in a useful concoction in GG's, both for the GG and its moons.
In thinking about an Empire, GG's are vital to deny the enemy, because the GG and/or its moons is such an easy fuel source, can be detected at ranges measured in multiple parsecs, and no interactive intel is needed to make jumps direct to them.
They may not matter to the mainworld, but they DO make a huge impact to an empire.
those others are not readily detected at 4+ Pc.... GG's are.
The GG is the most likely place for hostiles to refuel. You want a picket, if not a battle force as well, there to spread detect deeper in-empire.
That "Most Abundant Resource" is most readily available in a useful concoction in GG's, both for the GG and its moons.
In thinking about an Empire, GG's are vital to deny the enemy, because the GG and/or its moons is such an easy fuel source, can be detected at ranges measured in multiple parsecs, and no interactive intel is needed to make jumps direct to them.
They may not matter to the mainworld, but they DO make a huge impact to an empire.
True but not very relevant, unless the enemy has truly terrible intelligence gathering capabilities.
Depending on the Traveller version, you may be able to detect the incoming fleet from the mainworld. In any case, I have nothing against a small picket force, I just object to attempting to actually defend the gas giant, because it takes up ships you need at more important targets (the enemy isn't going to blow up your gas giants, after all).
They're also completely impossible to deny the enemy. Let's say a subsector has a thousand ships, forty worlds (three of which are Hi-pop), and 80 gas giants. Let's also assume the attacking fleet has 500 ships, and that all ships are equal in power.
Now, let's assume we put 10 ships at each gas giant. That just sucked up 80% of our fleet, and when 10 ships take on 500 ships, they'll be lucky to get one kill before being annihilated. In addition, you only have 50-100 ships to defend each Hi-pop world, so they'll get rolled over too.
If, on the other hand, you ignore the gas giants, you have 250-500 ships at each Hi-pop world, and they have at least a chance of withstanding the enemy, with a decent chance of inflicting measurable losses.
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Guess, if blocking access to a GG is a strategical issue, its a job of static defense stuff but not for ships of a fleet.
Some designs with minimal m-drive but heavily armed.
Perhaps thats a compromise, no ships are bound to defend those objects but the attacker still cannot refuel in safety.
Anyway, I could consider defending a GG as an option if it really is the only source of fuel in a system.
But maybe this is a rare case, as hydrogen is available at so many places in a regular Traveller (and perhaps also real life) solar system. That would make the defense of a single source quite useless.
Some designs with minimal m-drive but heavily armed.
Perhaps thats a compromise, no ships are bound to defend those objects but the attacker still cannot refuel in safety.
Anyway, I could consider defending a GG as an option if it really is the only source of fuel in a system.
But maybe this is a rare case, as hydrogen is available at so many places in a regular Traveller (and perhaps also real life) solar system. That would make the defense of a single source quite useless.
P
Pickles
Guest
I would certainly defend an orbital refinery (actually, should it be called an aerial refinery if it's inside the atmosphere?), but not an entire GG. It's a great place for a few SDBs to lie in ambush, though.
Aaanyway, what were we talking about in this thread again?
Aaanyway, what were we talking about in this thread again?
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Guess it was about the cannonical existence of orbital gas stations around a gas giant
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
...And if they're well defended GG systems, then they must exist..orbital GG Lhyd fuel refineries that is..
Anthony:
You only need to defend a 6 parsec wide shell's gas giants. Now, for, say the Darrians, that's EVERYTHING.
For the imperium, that's about 1/4th or less of the imperium. Heck, 6 SECTORS don't even have any. Their fleet assets can be shifted towards the edge.
That is the scale efficiency of Empires.
The GG is canonically and logically the prime place for interdiction of hostiles intent upon penetration. Given the tax rates (Striker) and populations (Sup 3) one can cover every such shell system with a few dozen cruisers.Their job is not "defeat in detail" but "Delay and Harrass" Far cheaper are monitors... a MG monitor can be quite the killer.
You only need to defend a 6 parsec wide shell's gas giants. Now, for, say the Darrians, that's EVERYTHING.
For the imperium, that's about 1/4th or less of the imperium. Heck, 6 SECTORS don't even have any. Their fleet assets can be shifted towards the edge.
That is the scale efficiency of Empires.
The GG is canonically and logically the prime place for interdiction of hostiles intent upon penetration. Given the tax rates (Striker) and populations (Sup 3) one can cover every such shell system with a few dozen cruisers.Their job is not "defeat in detail" but "Delay and Harrass" Far cheaper are monitors... a MG monitor can be quite the killer.
Which is still hundreds of targets, and now you have the problem that if a major fleet smashes through your shell (which it will, because it will have a 10:1 or more edge in firepower), you don't have anything in the back regions to deal with the fleet that got through.
Canonically, interdiction of hostiles intent upon penetration fails, at least in the case of major militaries. See the Fifth Frontier War boardgame.
