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orbiting structures in battle

Carlobrand

SOC-14 1K
Marquis
Recent (intense) discussion about naval bases triggers a question: how do their orbital elements survive a battle? FFW, Invasion Earth, TAS news reports, odd mentions of war and its effects scattered through Library Data, and other bits of canon, none of them show any indication of naval bases degrading in performance as the result of battle damage. We hear nothing in canon about attacks on orbital elements until He with No Honor does his dirty deed and triggers a civil war. Yet destruction of orbital elements would appear to be a prime military objective, inasmuch as degrading the enemy's ability to maintain his fleet will degrade the range and performance of his fleet. What gives?

Options:

A. Orbital elements are fortified.
The orbital structures can fend for themselves. However, the things can't be so well armed and defended that their presence influences the larger battle for the system or one would expect their mention someplace, and there's nothing in canon about orbital facilities shooting up invaders or defending themselves in battle. That doesn't prevent it, but it does set an upper limit - beyond a certain point, the things would have a major impact on the battle for a given system, and there's nothing suggesting such a scenario. And if there's an upper limit, then overwhelming the orbital's defenses is a likelihood, and we're back where we started.
Problem: no evidence in canon. Might make for an interesting battle, though.

B. Orbital elements are not legitimate targets.
Easiest is to say there's some convention or agreement that infrastructure is not a legitimate war target. However, agreements to limit the scope of war tend to - mostly - restrict themselves to governing conduct that does not have a direct bearing on the war effort or that would have impacts well beyond the war. One can see an agreement restricting attacks on civilian high port facilities on the argument of limiting long-term impact of war on civilians. Making the same argument for militay structures would be unusual but not impossible - they'd be treated as the military equivalent of open cities, not legitimate targets but eligible to be boarded and taken by the enemy for their own use.
Problem: unlikely, though not impossible.

C. Orbital elements can deorbit and return.
The orbital structure's equipped with gravitic propulsion units that allow it to come down into the relative safety of the atmosphere to avoid battle, perhaps hovering like a flying city; perhaps it's even able to hide itself in water, crew and all, until the battle's over. There's no mention of anything resembling such a capability, but certainly the technology is there for it.
Problem: no evidence in canon but boy, it'd be cool, wouldn't it?

D. Orbital elements are jump-capable
The orbital structure is equipped and fueled for two jump-1's. When threatened, it jumps to the safety of some remote part of the system, then returns afterward.
Problem: no mention in canon, and it leaves the base without its orbital elements for a minimum two weeks while the element goes through jump space out and then back.

Thoughts? Preferences?
 
C. Orbital elements can deorbit and return.
The orbital structure's equipped with gravitic propulsion units that allow it to come down into the relative safety of the atmosphere to avoid battle, perhaps hovering like a flying city; perhaps it's even able to hide itself in water, crew and all, until the battle's over. There's no mention of anything resembling such a capability, but certainly the technology is there for it.
Problem: no evidence in canon but boy, it'd be cool, wouldn't it?

Actually, there is canon for all that. Air/Rafts can make orbit in hours equal to the planets size characteristic, and by inference, land as well under similar time restraints. Any grav equipped vehicle can do the same, even a Vac Suit/Grav Belt combo. I believe that has been Canon since CT was published. As such, I would say that it is entirely probable that planetary governments to have such assets for use within 10 D (or was it 100 D limit). In any case, anything outside that limit is 3I business.

As for things that hide under seas, in atmospheres, ect. that is a classic tactic for SDB 's as well. After a certain TL, I would expect every satellite to be grav equipped, and be able to land/launch itself, just so that maintenance could be performed.

Its supported. Up to you as a GM to include things like that.
 
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I built a 500K orbital station using HG. I wouldnt call it a naval base but it was pretty powerful with just 100 ton bay weapons attached, fighter support and a few 100 turrents. I think these naval bases would be bigger or more of them. They might even eat up a good bit of that naval budget we are worried about. Imagine 1000 bases each costing 1000s Mcr to build and millions to support.

It would be huge fight to take a station. In my game the baddies used a comando raid to secure the station and the players did the same to help secure it for the locals. Imagine even a dreadnaught tangling with one or more of these bases.
 
Fleet bases are primary targets in any organized target prioritization that doesn't prolong a war. If you disable, destroy, or capture the bases, you impair the ability to rearm, reprovision, recrew, and repair.

Not to mention, usually, to pay the crews.

Not that any of these are impossible without them, but by having them, the ships can go get the needed supplies, rather than the supplies needing to find them.

So, the bases would be legit targets by most schemes.

Conclusion: oversight by game designers for simplicity.
 
I believe the starport is also a valuable target. You want to capture a class A starport, not destroy it.
 
Fleet bases are primary targets in any organized target prioritization that doesn't prolong a war. If you disable, destroy, or capture the bases, you impair the ability to rearm, reprovision, recrew, and repair.

Not to mention, usually, to pay the crews.

Not that any of these are impossible without them, but by having them, the ships can go get the needed supplies, rather than the supplies needing to find them.

So, the bases would be legit targets by most schemes.

Conclusion: oversight by game designers for simplicity.

This would be a good place to repost your monitor/orbital gun calc's, no need for it to be lost in the other thread.
 
Mega / Hard Times and TNE give a few ideas. The 3I preferred capture over destruction and leaving behind for recapture over blowing up since the switch to Black War comes as a shocking change

My guess would be some dedicated defences well separated from docks, living space etc to separate targets
 
From what I understand about Naval Bases, their orbital components are treated like mainworld resources, like parts of a starport. And specifically, the naval base is not a tactical unit... so it must rely on local system defenses and any fleet elements present.

I would say some orbital elements may be powered (e.g. fuel lighters), and may de-orbit, run and hide, or even jump, but some elements (refineries and maintenance) are just like parts of a starport, neither fortified nor weaponed.

I would also say that the starport defense authority could maintain armored and armed planetoid monitors in orbit, for planetary defense.
 
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D. Orbital elements are jump-capable
The orbital structure is equipped and fueled for two jump-1's. When threatened, it jumps to the safety of some remote part of the system, then returns afterward.
Problem: no mention in canon, and it leaves the base without its orbital elements for a minimum two weeks while the element goes through jump space out and then back.

Thoughts? Preferences?


Why two weeks? Who says you have to go anywhere? Just jump and go nowhere. You are gone for a week and "POP" right back in place, or a feww hundred meters out of place.
 
I built a 500K orbital station using HG. I wouldnt call it a naval base but it was pretty powerful with just 100 ton bay weapons attached, fighter support and a few 100 turrets. I think these naval bases would be bigger or more of them. They might even eat up a good bit of that naval budget we are worried about. Imagine 1000 bases each costing 1000s Mcr to build and millions to support.

It would be huge fight to take a station. In my game the baddies used a comando raid to secure the station and the players did the same to help secure it for the locals. Imagine even a dreadnaught tangling with one or more of these bases.

Gray,
The problem there is that under HG rules, the orbital station is likely to have Agility-0, and be a fish in a barrel if the enemy wishes to destroy rather than capture. To avoid this, you'd have to give them 6G maneuver drives, and then . . . you've built a ship. That will work too, but runs counter to the common image of an orbital facility.
I would likely go with the idea of the facilities being streamlined and able to de-orbit, like an SDB.

Cheers,

Bob W.
 
You do realise that between this and Dan's Strip Fleet idea you are in danger of actually producing a third Imperium that is a very different society than the US with space ships that too many people imagine.

Just imagine the spectacle of the Naval Base facilities descending using null grav modules to the relative safety of the planet below.

Or activating its jump drives and making for the safety of a deep system location (same system just way way out - preferably close to a dwarf planet, comet or large asteroid in the out system).

The Imperium as a space based culture...

Anyway, harping back to the FFW rules. If an enemy fleet controls your system you can not use the base there (no surprise) - if you retake the system the base is available again.

The idea that the starport is off limits in an honourable war is fine, but an obviously military orbital asset is a legitimate target IMHO. You could even argue that during the commerce raiding of the 3FW orbital facilities would be taken out is such a target of opportunity were to present itself.

My final thought is that a Naval base is totally unarmed and surrenders to a hostile fleet when called to do so, but the refuelling/repair tenders bug out in one of the previously mentioned ways.
 
In Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet novels, and in a recent Honor Harrington novel, orbital facilities are easily taken out, usually with kinetic weapons, and even if there is a defending fleet in the system. I can't see how they would be defensible unless you consider using only standard Traveller missiles to attack them, in which case you load the things up with laser and sandcaster batteries and hope for the best.
 
Why two weeks? Who says you have to go anywhere? Just jump and go nowhere. You are gone for a week and "POP" right back in place, or a feww hundred meters out of place.

a few thousand, plus orbital travel, at least if T5's assumptions are used. details later when not time pressed, but in short, you can't jump to parralel orbit.
 
In Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet novels, and in a recent Honor Harrington novel, orbital facilities are easily taken out, usually with kinetic weapons, and even if there is a defending fleet in the system. ...

Don't know about about Honor Harrington (read a few, IIRC), but in the Lost Fleet series the kinetic attacks are done at a small fraction of c such that the light of arrival and time to impact are small (and KE big) ... otherwise it wouldn't take much to move any orbital facilities out of the way, as such would generally need some type of station keeping adjustment ability (not necessarily m-drives) against gravity and solar winds.

As written, Traveller facilities wouldn't suffer from being sitting ducks any more than a ship without drives... though not to say the mechanics handle such a situation in all that believable a manner. <shrug>

IMTU, I played with adding KE weapons (stealth 'ball-bearing' flack and frac-c mass driver munitions) a long time ago, but never did much with them in game play.
 
a few thousand, plus orbital travel, at least if T5's assumptions are used. details later when not time pressed, but in short, you can't jump to parralel orbit.

Sure you can. The orbit of the planet is known, and is a known algorithm, otherwise people couldn't jump there in the first place, at least not consistently within reasonable maneuver distance, and if an astrogator can plot a jump of up to six parsecs of travel and come out within 100 D of a planet, why can't said astrogator plot a jump of a few million kilometers? The math is too hard?:oo:
 
Sure you can. The orbit of the planet is known, and is a known algorithm, otherwise people couldn't jump there in the first place, at least not consistently within reasonable maneuver distance, and if an astrogator can plot a jump of up to six parsecs of travel and come out within 100 D of a planet, why can't said astrogator plot a jump of a few million kilometers? The math is too hard?:oo:

no, you cannot. the moment your course intersects a 100-diameter sphere at anytime during the jump determines where you exit. so, if your course parallels the planet's movement, you drop out within 3000 km of your entrance point, because your course crosses the exclusion sphere at that point.

T5 clarifies a lot of the mud of the JTAS24 jumpspace article... and not in the ways most interpret JTAS 24... IMO, it's not a good choice, but it is MWM's bad choice to make...
 
no, you cannot. the moment your course intersects a 100-diameter sphere at anytime during the jump determines where you exit. so, if your course parallels the planet's movement, you drop out within 3000 km of your entrance point, because your course crosses the exclusion sphere at that point.

T5 clarifies a lot of the mud of the JTAS24 jumpspace article... and not in the ways most interpret JTAS 24... IMO, it's not a good choice, but it is MWM's bad choice to make...

And all course are completely linear? There are absolutely no nonlinear courses? In (at least) three dimensional space? If that is the case someone didn't do the due diligence on the physics or mathematics.

I am not sure that you are aware, but even a parabolic course is nonlinear. And all it would take is a parabolic course. And since T5 allows in jump space course correction...and station-keeping rockets can apply enough thrush to change course by a 100th of a degree or so, which is all it would take over that distance. This is why I asked if the math was too hard.
 
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And all course are completely linear? There are absolutely no nonlinear courses? In (at least) three dimensional space? If that is the case someone didn't do the due diligence on the physics or mathematics.

I am not sure that you are aware, but even a parabolic course is nonlinear. And all it would take is a parabolic course. And since T5 allows in jump space course correction...and station-keeping rockets can apply enough thrush to change course by a 100th of a degree or so, which is all it would take over that distance. This is why I asked if the math was too hard.

The course corrections you refer to do not affect your jump course at all - they affect your N-Space course upon exit. It's more clear on the page following that the vector changes during jump are entirely N-space vector.
 
The course corrections you refer to do not affect your jump course at all - they affect your N-Space course upon exit. It's more clear on the page following that the vector changes during jump are entirely N-space vector.

Still doesn't answer my question about linearity.
 
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