Outsystem - beyond 100 diameters from the mainworld

[Spenser TR]

The "outsystem"

My understanding - no doubt informed by several versions of Traveller and probably drifting a bit from any of them - is that in a given Imperial member system, most of the mainworld is under the control/rule of the local government(s).

There is some amount of territory here that "belongs to" and is run by the Imperium: the SPA downport, any reserves administered by local Imperial nobility, any land or territory granted to Imperial entities including bases, training facilities, buildings and land used by the Imperial diplomatic mission, and so on.

The mainworld govt(s) also controls out to 10 diameters out from the surface. Joint control between the mainworld and the Imperium is held of the 10-100 diameter space.

Gas giants are open to "the public" for refueling. I imagine they are jointly patrolled by local assets (if any) and the Imperium (if they happen to be at hand).

My understanding is that the rest is outsystem (my term; just being colorful), and is mostly the domain of the Imperium. Of course this includes planets/bodies closer to the local star(s) than the mainworld.

During Imperial membership negotiations it could be that pre-existing outsystem bases and whatnot were grandfathered in as territories of the mainworld. And as a matter of business going forward from the first day of membership it seems reasonable that a deal might be struct between the Imperium and mainworld government(s) for some of the outsystem territory.

But in general most of the outsystem is under Imperial control; local nobility license bits of such territory for development and use to generate revenue.

What's your understanding of the outsystem?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

IMTU the local government controls the entire local system. Some local governments control several systems. The Imperium only rules interstellar ship on their way to/from the system.

Refuelling in the wild: local oceans or gas giants is entirely up to local government to regulate. The Imperium only requires access to a specified extra-legal starport with fuel available.


I believe that is vaguely what is implied in the OTU. Example: The Regina system contains about 10-15 inhabited planets and moons. I refuse to believe they are 10-15 different individual members of the Imperium.

LBB5 specifies that Imperial worlds may have their own space navy, which would be rather unnecessary if they did not control some space.

CT Beltstrike heavily implies that asteroid belts are generally under local control, it certainly is in the Bowman system, but that may not be representative of systems in the Imperium.


Compare with the EU or the USA. The provinces ("states") controls all local territory, not just the major cities. The federal government regulates inter-province trade including access to highways, I believe.

 

[BRover]

Not sure what the OTU says, if there's anything specific, but in MTU, the use of UWP for each system, plus government codes 6 and 7--captive systems or balkanized--indicate that the default local governmental unit is a whole system. This seems reasonable, in that light-speed communication allows control by local agents on-the-spot within a few minutes (inner system) or hours (outer) rather than needing a starship and a week or two to send a message. Those are whole different orders of magnitude.

A few minutes of research: Mars is under 13 light-minutes from the sun, while Jupiter is 42 light minutes and Neptune is 4.2 light hours.

 

[MThompson016]

Unless otherwise noted IMTU, the mainworld serves as the seat of government for the entire system. Generally, it's got resources the entire system needs, even if it is at the bottom of a gravity well. Things like technical knowledge, the population, and possibly resources.

The Imperium does set regulations and can enforce them, but in practice, locals enforce them. In some cases, there could be a second location that is a separate member of the Imperium, but it is most common when systems are newly integrated into the Imperium, because it adds a layer of (already thick) bureaucracy.

 

[BlackBat242]

I believe that is vaguely what is implied in the OTU. Example: The Regina system contains about 10-15 inhabited planets and moons. I refuse to believe they are 10-15 different individual members of the Imperium.

Not sure what the OTU says, if there's anything specific, but in MTU, the use of UWP for each system, plus government codes 6 and 7--captive systems or balkanized--indicate that the default local governmental unit is a whole system.

Only a system with a "Balkanized" government code would have different governments controlling worlds (or areas) in the same system as the others.

The Oort Cloud of a system is governed by the home-world... unless "Balkanized", then it can (but not "must") have its own government (The Confederation of Cometary Colonies")?

 

[BRover]

BlackBat242, that was my point: those codes, etc., imply that the system is the "natural" unit of local government, and so most main-worlds would have some sort of claim to all the system's real estate, however lousy its local conditions, climate, surface state--with the exception of exceptions like the starport and other extraterritorial areas.

 

[welsh]

I don't think it makes sense to apply any universal rule here. It varies system by system.

High-population, high-tech worlds with organized systems of government are likely to control much more of the system than low-population, low-tech worlds with minimum or no government.

My view is the Imperium controls everything that is not under a local government -- that is to say, the Imperium controls everything that is not populated -- except where local governments have sufficient power to be able to negotiate a better deal.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The Terra System shows one direct example. MgT Solomani shows that Pluto is under direct military control of the Navy, even beyond the system's overall captive government. It also makes direct mention that the majority of systems in the Imperium rarely use/exploit their secondary worlds.

This seems to make sense when combined with Vilani colonization policy (and world generation) in the Vilani Imperium as detailed in GURPS: IW: naturally habitable mainworlds, other systems only if they are rich in mineral wealth or required to complete a contiguous J1-J2 network. Terrans colonized their systems extensively because they were just starting out and were locked out of access coreward.

10,000 years of Vilani cultural conservatism/safety vs 3000 years Terran/Solomani adventurism. My vote is on the Vilani here. There may be secondary worlds in the 3rd Imperium, but not nearly as many as we may think.

 

[Condottiere]

Pluto would be military necessity.

The rest commercial viability, or some colony settled by dissidents.

 

[Timerover51]

When the main world is part of an asteroid belt, what is the out-system? You may have part of the population located several hundred million miles away on the far side of the sun. For that matter, in an asteroid belt, is 100 diameters from the main world a safe spot to jump?

How much control will the main world of the asteroid belt have over the various populated asteroids, which may be best reached by micro-jumps?

 

[aramis]

When the main world is part of an asteroid belt, what is the out-system? You may have part of the population located several hundred million miles away on the far side of the sun. For that matter, in an asteroid belt, is 100 diameters from the main world a safe spot to jump?

How much control will the main world of the asteroid belt have over the various populated asteroids, which may be best reached by micro-jumps?

That's entirely dependent upon the nature of the government, and upon the law level and tech level as well.

And what the orbital dynamics are of the belt.

Note that in the case of the one canonical detailed belt in CT, the Bowman Belt, the thousands of people is the entire belt, not the largest asteroid population, albeit both are in the same range.

 

[whartung]

Pluto would be military necessity.

Why? What value is this rock of a world so far out of the system? It's not even a fueling hub. Why this rock vs any other deep space rock.

 

[Proneutron]

Why? What value is this rock of a world so far out of the system? It's not even a fueling hub. Why this rock vs any other deep space rock.

True. With Trav tech it would be really easy to accelerate a large asteroid from the belt and change its orbit to outside that of Pluto's if you were keen on a base out there.

 

[Condottiere]

1. I assume that Pluto has water in some form, so primarily to prevent it becoming a major staging base for an invading fleet.

2. Because, if there one certainty in the galaxy, it would be that the Solomani will be returning to their home world, in force.

3. The Terran system may well be the second most fortified region in known space, and there's at least an entire sector fleet poised in easy reach, ready to punch through Imperial border defences just to regain it.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

1. I assume that Pluto has water in some form, so primarily to prevent it becoming a major staging base for an invading fleet.

2. Because, if there one certainty in the galaxy, it would be that the Solomani will be returning to their home world, in force.

3. The Terran system may well be the second most fortified region in known space, and there's at least an entire sector fleet poised in easy reach, ready to punch through Imperial border defences just to regain it.

why refuel thier? its so far out its effectively a jump away form terra anyway. for most ships, pluto might as well be orbiting Proxima Centauri, because its quicker to jump than to dive.

frankly, if defence of fuel sites is the aim, a moon of Jupiter or Saturn would be a better bet. closer to the mainworld, and to the gas giants as well.

only reason to base on pluto is that its remote. i assume its chosen becuase its close enough to be in comms range of terra, but remote enough to be protected form any insurgent activity form terra. sat out in where it is, its a threat to the rear area of any attack on terra. It forces any attack to make a choice: fuel or fight?

If they go to fuel at a GG, they are going have to worry about the pluto fleet trapping them in the grav well, so will have to leave a very strong High Guard, and thus drastically slow down their refuelling, robbing them of surprise and momentum.

if they jump in around pluto to deal with it first, they arrive with empty tanks and cant withdraw cripples, so thier stuck in a fight or die situation. either that or they have to take a staging system close to terra so they can short jump and have some escape fuel, which again costs time and momentum.


id say those strategic choices make pluto a viable defensive position.

 

[aramis]

1. I assume that Pluto has water in some form, so primarily to prevent it becoming a major staging base for an invading fleet.

Yep. About 30% of the surface is water ice, per
Space.com's Pluto page (html)

 

[aramis]

why refuel thier? its so far out its effectively a jump away form terra anyway. for most ships, pluto might as well be orbiting Proxima Centauri, because its quicker to jump than to dive.

The thing is, refuelling there allows you to be there, refuel, and move on before the in-system forces can get to you.

It's not a place to attack the system it's bound to; it is a way to bypass it.

Also note: each such icy hunk needs defense, because you're not going to be able to defend any give cluster of a Dwarf Planet and it's moons & coplanets.

That is, Pluto, Charon, Styx, Nix, Kerberos, and Hydra can be defended by one local base.
Makemake and its (currently unnamed) moon are usually not in 6G intercept from Pluto.
Nor are Orcus and its moon Vanth. And all of them are typically outside of reach from any of the gas and ice giants, including the projected ice giant in about orbit 12-15 (variously called Planet 10, Planet X, Planet nine, Nemesis).

By the time an intercept can get there, and the fastest will by a microjump most of the time, the potential aggressor is already jumped away. If the aggressor is fast, and the refuel done in under 5 hours, the refuel is gone before the inner system has even had a chance to see them. And it's probably longer for Makemake or Orcus to spot the intruders...

And, since planet positions are predictatable, they can plot to fall in the shadow of pluto relative to the inner system, and jump in and out where the flash cannot be seen from the inner system.

Essentially, to deny border permiability, one has to defend each and every significant cluster of bodies in the deep outsystem (KBO and OCO)

 

[Proneutron]

And, since planet positions are predictatable, they can plot to fall in the shadow of pluto relative to the inner system, and jump in and out where the flash cannot be seen from the inner system.

There will be many sensor platforms in a system eliminating such tiny shadows. They are cheap and small unless the TL is too low

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

The thing is, refuelling there allows you to be there, refuel, and move on before the in-system forces can get to you.

It's not a place to attack the system it's bound to; it is a way to bypass it.

Also note: each such icy hunk needs defense, because you're not going to be able to defend any give cluster of a Dwarf Planet and it's moons & coplanets.

That is, Pluto, Charon, Styx, Nix, Kerberos, and Hydra can be defended by one local base.
Makemake and its (currently unnamed) moon are usually not in 6G intercept from Pluto.
Nor are Orcus and its moon Vanth. And all of them are typically outside of reach from any of the gas and ice giants, including the projected ice giant in about orbit 12-15 (variously called Planet 10, Planet X, Planet nine, Nemesis).

By the time an intercept can get there, and the fastest will by a microjump most of the time, the potential aggressor is already jumped away. If the aggressor is fast, and the refuel done in under 5 hours, the refuel is gone before the inner system has even had a chance to see them. And it's probably longer for Makemake or Orcus to spot the intruders...

And, since planet positions are predictatable, they can plot to fall in the shadow of pluto relative to the inner system, and jump in and out where the flash cannot be seen from the inner system.

Essentially, to deny border permiability, one has to defend each and every significant cluster of bodies in the deep outsystem (KBO and OCO)

fair enough. I'd say that arguement might work for small raiding force, but a main battle fleet that needs hundreds of thousands of Dtons of fuel, edging into the millions of Dtons isnt going to be collecting that much fuel in just a few hours by shovelling ice into the scoops. for something on that scale your looking at either a GG or a pre-built fueling station with multipe high capacity pumps and a big tank of ready to go fuel.

Thus, the force required to "defend every rock" could be fairly small, or alternatively, you accept that deep raiding by small forces is a possibility (or that defending e every potential fuel source in 4-8 parsecs of the border is an IMpossiblity0=) and devote the assets you'd have used to guard those rocks to, say convoy duty. Hell, given the existance of tankers, deep raiding is always going to be a possiblity via daisy chaining tankers like the RAF did for the Black Buck missions to the falklands.


edit: I didnt intially think about system-bypassing, because given the importance of the mainworld to the attacking Solmani, i didnt think theyd want to skip past it. and given the layout of the sector, thiers not many places you HAVE to travel to via terra if your j4

 

[Timerover51]

There will be many sensor platforms in a system eliminating such tiny shadows. They are cheap and small unless the TL is too low

Given the volume of space any such sensor system will need to survey, they will be neither cheap nor small. What would it take to maintain surveillance over a sphere of 1 million kilometers diameter? Your data return rate for a single pulse is over 6 seconds. How much of that sphere are you surveying with a single pulse?

Then you still have to relay that information to whatever base is supposed to respond. Pluto is on the average 4.45 light hours from the sun. Depending on where any sensors are and how far they are from Pluto or any other possible refueling object, which could also include comet bodies, it might be well over 5 or 6 hours before any intruder is reported. Then the base has to get intercept ships to the intruder location. By the time they reach it, the intruder is long gone.