Outsystem - beyond 100 diameters from the mainworld

[Condottiere]

I don't think Alderaaning Earth is an option, compared to fighting over every square inch. It could pretty much spark off a Rebellion.

The Confederation Navy prefers if the Imperium Navy converges all surviving forces and funnels reinforcements towards Terra, so that they don't have to hunt them down. By the time the Imperium strategic reserves arrive, the Confederation should have consolidated it's gains along the nine dash line, and even if the fight for Terra becomes a siege, the axis of any Imperium advance would converge there.

 

[Proneutron]

Have you calculated the mass of gasses in Pluto's atmosphere? It doesn't take long.
You know the diameter of Pluto, the height and pressure of its atmosphere and the relative abundance of the gases. No exact calculation required just an order of magnitude guestimate will be close enough.

The pressure is about 1/100,000 of Earth's at ground level. So even doing a NOE "orbit" would not net you enough gas. But it would be an "exciting" ride!

 

[whartung]

Why bother, there are plenty of comets and dwarf planets you could refuel at instead. The Imperium can not possibly be guarding them all.

For whatever reason, the fleets don't refuel in the Oort cloud. Since we don't seem to have much evidence about it happening. So, perhaps it's really inefficient and very time consuming to do it.

 

[mike wightman]

There is no direct evidence of an Oort cloud at all It is a hypothesis that hasn't made it to the evidence stage of the scientific method yet. No astronomer has discovered a single Oort cloud object, but it should only be a matter of time since it is very difficult to come up with a better theory for the origin of comets.
Note that latest hypotheses have the outer reaches of the Sun's Oort cloud as being a few light years away.

I was thinking more of Kuiper belt objects as being easy refueling stops, the dwarf planets and asteroids that are out there will have plenty of hydrogen.

 

[whartung]

Pretty sure the Kuiper Belt is the thing that I have in my head as the Oort Cloud.

I thought comets are supposed to be coming from the Oort Cloud, do they come from this belt instead?

It's likely not important.

But the key point, as you mentioned, is that if systems indeed have such a belt, that is not only does the belt exist, it's common to all systems, then I think interdicting invading fleets is even more problematic, as that are would be mostly impossible to patrol.

Mind, I think it would be fair, game wise, to make refueling from the belt take twice as long, but perhaps it could be surveyed to find the "iciest chunks" making refueling less of a scavenging mission.

I still think that ice farming should take much longer than gas skimming.

I always thought FFW should have an Outer system and Inner System box to stage defense fleets. The outer system representing the gas giants and such, the inner system representing the meaty parts of the system, both of which could be defended.

The premise being if an invading fleet lands in the outer system, all they can do is refuel. On their next move, they can either jump, or move to the inner system, for no fuel cost (ostensibly to attack the core worlds). Mind, they can just jump in to the inner system, and refuel there as well, after defeating the defenders (this would be the normal box like the hex currently).

Similarly, defending units can move from the Inner box to the Outer box. If the attacking fleet is moving inward, or staying, as the defender move outward, combat ensues (they intercept). If the attackers just jump out, the defenders complete their move (and probably should move back inward on the next move).

But then also add a 3rd Deep System (i.e. the Kuiper Belt) box, which can't be defended, but fleets must wait 2 turns to refuel there.

This just feels more "realistic" to me about how to manage system defense and border defense. (And I think the defenders will need more ships...)

 

[Proneutron]

This just feels more "realistic" to me about how to manage system defense and border defense. (And I think the defenders will need more ships...)

Defenders can "afford" more, and more powerful ships as they don't require J-drives. Also for an advanced civilization, destroying the large fuel sources out there (non-planets) would be easy. Nukes for the comets and ice balls. One could even have automated ships with nukes that spend years scouring the outer parts doing just that.

 

[Vile]

Also for an advanced civilization, destroying the large fuel sources out there (non-planets) would be easy.

Or they could send them sunward for resource exploitation. I'd like to think that a sufficiently advanced civilisation would take the more sustainable route.

 

[Proneutron]

Or they could send them sunward for resource exploitation. I'd like to think that a sufficiently advanced civilisation would take the more sustainable route.

That route would take MUCH more resources. Sending sunward is also towards the main world and from the Ort cloud could take hundreds to thousands of years to get them near the main world where they become a navigation or collision hazard.

 

[BRover]

Defenders can "afford" more, and more powerful ships as they don't require J-drives. Also for an advanced civilization, destroying the large fuel sources out there (non-planets) would be easy. Nukes for the comets and ice balls. One could even have automated ships with nukes that spend years scouring the outer parts doing just that.

It could take millions of nukes for each system. That starts adding up fast.

 

[BRover]

Or they could send them sunward for resource exploitation. I'd like to think that a sufficiently advanced civilisation would take the more sustainable route.

That route would take MUCH more resources. Sending sunward is also towards the main world and from the Ort cloud could take hundreds to thousands of years to get them near the main world where they become a navigation or collision hazard.

I'm with Vile on this--more sustainable, better stewardship of future resources--and even reducing chances of risking another Chixulub.

 

[aramis]

Pretty sure the Kuiper Belt is the thing that I have in my head as the Oort Cloud.

I thought comets are supposed to be coming from the Oort Cloud, do they come from this belt instead?

Both, actually. the shorter of the long period comets tend to be seen as KBOs ejected by a pass with something, while the longest period long period comets are thought to be Oort cloud objects.

It's worth noting that, according to several current PhD astronomers sidelining on youtube, whilst working in field... the Oort cloud is presumed to exist, but no actual Oort cloud objects have been detected yet.

KBO's, many have been found, and Pluto reclassified as one. The perturbations needed to send a full-up DP class object headed in would pretty much be an encounter with a full-planet.

The actual origin of the comets isn't exactly clear, as the KBOs seem to be found in families of a dwarf planet or two, and a number of smaller bodies, per each cluster of them.

Many have orbits that have their aphelion in the Kuiper Belt range... but that's no assurance that they actually formed there. (See the Grand Tack theory.)

 

[Proneutron]

I'm with Vile on this--more sustainable, better stewardship of future resources--and even reducing chances of risking another Chixulub.

Sure if you want to wait thousands of years. Not likely or practical though. Trav TL 9+ systems have no worries about Chixulub type incidents for obvious reasons.

 

[sudnadja]

Your definition and mine of tiny are obviously at odds . It's like saying there is only a tiny amount of argon in the Earth's atmosphere.
There are millions of tons of methane in Pluto's atmosphere, and it is much easier to skim than from a gas giant. Failing that just land and process the methane and other hydrocarbon slush on the surface. I'm not saying you would set up a permanent refueling station there, but there is enough to refuel a fleet.

The surface pressure of Pluto is about 1.3 Pascals, 0.5% of which is methane. Presuming ideal gas law (which should work for an approximation) and 25 Kelvins, you'll get about 5*10^-7 kg/meter^3 methane. You'll need to sweep up 2 billion cubic meters of surface-density Pluto atmosphere to collect 1000 kg of methane. Presuming a 50 m^2 scoop area and spacecraft moving at 1km/sec, and 100% efficiency (every molecule of methane swept is captured) it would take just over 11 hours to gather 1 ton of methane.

 

[sudnadja]

Both, actually. the shorter of the long period comets tend to be seen as KBOs ejected by a pass with something, while the longest period long period comets are thought to be Oort cloud objects.

It's worth noting that, according to several current PhD astronomers sidelining on youtube, whilst working in field... the Oort cloud is presumed to exist, but no actual Oort cloud objects have been detected yet.

KBO's, many have been found, and Pluto reclassified as one. The perturbations needed to send a full-up DP class object headed in would pretty much be an encounter with a full-planet.

The actual origin of the comets isn't exactly clear, as the KBOs seem to be found in families of a dwarf planet or two, and a number of smaller bodies, per each cluster of them.

Many have orbits that have their aphelion in the Kuiper Belt range... but that's no assurance that they actually formed there. (See the Grand Tack theory.)

and of course there are interstellar comets as well, such as 2I/Borisov.

 

[Proneutron]

There are millions of tons of methane in Pluto's atmosphere, and it is much easier to skim than from a gas giant.

Flying your starship at >2,200 mph N.O.E. (a few feet off the ground) for half a day is easier than skimming a GG? :rofl:

 

[sudnadja]

Flying your starship at >2,200 mph N.O.E. (a few feet off the ground) for half a day is easier than skimming a GG? :rofl:

and that's only to get one ton of methane, which will give you 251.3 kg of H2, or 1/4 DTon. 2 days per dton of fuel, in short.

 

[Cryton]

IMTU, space outside of 100D from the mainworld is Imperial space. With one notable exception.

That exception being, the Homeworld and Home System of a Sophont species. These worlds may consider themselves Imperial, and thus allow 3I enforcement beyond 100D, or not. But the entire system is under "Home Rule" regardless, providing those that claim 3I membership ALSO enforce 3I law. Otherwise they are independent, or under Amber or Red Zone.

It makes for interesting, species aligned adventures.

 

[BRover]

Sure if you want to wait thousands of years. Not likely or practical though. Trav TL 9+ systems have no worries about Chixulub type incidents for obvious reasons.

Yes--but remember that there are thousands of systems in the 3I, and even more in Charted space. Even low-probability events happen frighteningly frequently if you examine enough systems.

But my primary point was the umber of nukes required to clear a system properly--and the waste of resources. Safety is a nice bonus, but not the prime concern.

 

[Proneutron]

Even low-probability events happen frighteningly frequently if you examine enough systems.

What are you talking about?

 

[mike wightman]

Flying your starship at >2,200 mph N.O.E. (a few feet off the ground) for half a day is easier than skimming a GG? :rofl:

Orbital mechanics say yes.