Outsystem - beyond 100 diameters from the mainworld

[whartung]

Essentially, to deny border permiability, one has to defend each and every significant cluster of bodies in the deep outsystem (KBO and OCO)

I don't know how practical that is, however. Especially in the deep Oort cloud, which is rumored to be quite rich in materials, and can be easily scouted and mapped via active survey, or even reaping public domain materials.

An asteroid belt is also very rich, and it's quite large.

Then, there are "lousy" systems, with no interesting worlds, but still available as a wilderness refueling stop, yet they would require same defensive commitment as rich transport hub (at least in terms of the frontier defense section).

This soon become I think untenable, and quite exhausting of resources. Resources that don't scale up quickly, even if they can be place quickly.

Meaning, while you may not have to actually have these forces stations 24x7x365, you need forces in reserve that you CAN station 24x7x365 when tensions rise. And these have to be significant elements, not just a 1/2 dozen SDBs. The enemy (outside of scouting) will have force concentration. "Recon in force" that should be able to readily defeat such smaller elements.

The requirements for scouting and intelligence are far lower. KNOWING a "large fleet of 100 main force elements passed through" may well be enough than trying to stop them in their tracks or deny them resources. Meanwhile, heavy defenses are there on the main worlds which have the resources that are actually worth defending.

 

[Proneutron]

Given the volume of space any such sensor system will need to survey, they will be neither cheap nor small.

Incorrect, see Atomic rockets for how cheap and small even using tech from ~20 years ago. Basic physics tells you how it is done. At ~TL 9 and above it is trivial

 

[Condottiere]

Pluto is in the Terran solar system, and the Imperials know what's coming for them.

The point of defending Pluto is to try and create a speedbump, giving reinforcements more time to arrive from the Imperium interior, while you have to presume the Confederation fleets reduce each bastioned gas giant garrison, and proceed to besiege Earth.

What the Imperials don't know, is the extent of infiltration by Confederation agents within their defence grid(s), or the number of prepositioned stealthed Confederation warships insystem.

 

[mike wightman]

There is no stealth in space.

 

[Proneutron]

There is no stealth in space.

 

[Condottiere]

Then the Imperium Navy needs better sensors.

 

[Proneutron]

Then the Imperium Navy needs better sensors.

They can pick them up at any neighborhood Walmart

 

[BRJN]

My fast take on it is that any Kuiper Belt defenses are not really intended to destroy fleets or squadrons but to signal to in-system "THEY'RE HERE" with pictures, and take a pop at something. Attrition, ammunition expenditure, and trivial / minor damage to the enemy is expected, but you might get something like the Graf Spee's critical hit that broke the water condensors. You might get lucky if an enemy tanker had orders to grind up some ice while the fleets were busy elsewhere.

 

[whartung]

The point of defending Pluto is to try and create a speedbump

Why would my attacking fleet jump in next to Pluto?

If I need fuel, I'm going to jump in to Neptune, Uranus, Jupiter, or Saturn (for places to defend). And when I do, I'll have some sense of the defense of these worlds so as to pick the weakest one.

Sure, my intelligence will be, at best, 2 weeks old, but some intelligence is better than no intelligence. And the defense needs to be large enough to actually make me pause rather than just swat them aside like a bug.

Meanwhile, the other fleets in the system are likely Really Far Away. AT BEST, Jupiter is 2.3B miles aways from Neptune. That's a week at 4G. A week for the fleet to fuel, to prepare, to deploy, and wait for the responding fleet -- a fleet that is burdened with sustained high g maneuver. A week to perhaps get everything they need done and jump out.

And even worse, consider this.

A fleet arrives at Neptune, a response is coming in from Jupiter, a week away. Just as the responders arrive, they jump out.

Do you know where they jumped to?

Earth.

Because the responding fleet is, now, more than a week away from Earth. Even if the fleet turned around and headed back, the attacking fleet can beat them to Earth, get there long before them.

So, now the story is you have to defend not just Neptune, but the 3 other gas giants as well, AND Earth itself. Against a powerful strike fleet, I don't see it. That's a lot of scattered defense.

Let them fuel and move on, at least we know where they are.

 

[Proneutron]

So, now the story is you have to defend not just Neptune, but the 3 other gas giants as well, AND Earth itself. Against a powerful strike fleet, I don't see it. That's a lot of scattered defense.

Which is why they use monitors for defense and not star ships. In all ways far superior Cr/fighting power over star ships. They deny easy access to refueling via these monitors and deep atmosphere nuc mines and have their main monitor fleet + huge buffered asteroid defenses around their main world

 

[mike wightman]

Why would my attacking fleet jump in next to Pluto?

Plenty of methane in Pluto's atmosphere to skim for fuel...

 

[Condottiere]

Let me clarify this again.

We're talking about Occupied Terra in the Travellerverse.

The Imperials know that the Confederation's primary war goal is it's liberation.

The Confederation knows that the Imperium knows, and the Imperium knows that the Confederation knows that they know, and so ad infinitum.

I don't know if surviving Imperium Navy units are to regroup in the Terran system, but essentially it's considered by both sides the prize and a trap.

Of course, the Confederation is very keen not to have to fight above, on or under the Earth, if they can avoid it, since they want it intact, while the Imperium probably has considered a recreation of Stalingrad.

 

[Proneutron]

Plenty of methane in Pluto's atmosphere to skim for fuel...

Not really. Its VERY thin and tenuous atmosphere is composed primarily of nitrogen with tiny amounts of methane and CO being detected.

 

[whartung]

Let me clarify this again.

We're talking about Occupied Terra in the Travellerverse.

This is a different use case than trying to prevent the system being used as a fueling stopover.

Here you have a hardened system by a motivated defender willing to spend the monies on a in depth defense of a single system vs the far spanning borders of a spanning empire.

 

[Condottiere]

Pluto was referenced as being an Imperium Navy reservation; this is essentially an unusual occurrence, and probably only due to the specific circumstances surrounding the relationship between the Confederation and Imperium.

It's not just a whole bunch of battle fleets will be arriving in the Terran system, but hundreds of support and transport starships, and Pluto is probably easier to clear of Imperium forces and booby traps than a gas giant.

 

[mike wightman]

Not really. Its VERY thin and tenuous atmosphere is composed primarily of nitrogen with tiny amounts of methane and CO being detected.

Your definition and mine of tiny are obviously at odds . It's like saying there is only a tiny amount of argon in the Earth's atmosphere.
There are millions of tons of methane in Pluto's atmosphere, and it is much easier to skim than from a gas giant. Failing that just land and process the methane and other hydrocarbon slush on the surface. I'm not saying you would set up a permanent refueling station there, but there is enough to refuel a fleet.

 

[mike wightman]

Pluto was referenced as being an Imperium Navy reservation; this is essentially an unusual occurrence, and probably only due to the specific circumstances surrounding the relationship between the Confederation and Imperium.

It's not just a whole bunch of battle fleets will be arriving in the Terran system, but hundreds of support and transport starships, and Pluto is probably easier to clear of Imperium forces and booby traps than a gas giant.

Why bother, there are plenty of comets and dwarf planets you could refuel at instead. The Imperium can not possibly be guarding them all.

 

[Proneutron]

Your definition and mine of tiny are obviously at odds .

It isn't my definition nor data. I took that from a NASA description.

 

[mike wightman]

Let me clarify this again.

We're talking about Occupied Terra in the Travellerverse.

No, you are doing that from your peculiar Mongoose Traveller inspired perspective . Within the OTU the situation is different.

The Imperials know that the Confederation's primary war goal is it's liberation.

No, the Confederation's primary goal is the retaking of the entire Solomani sphere, retaking Terra could be done once the Impies have been sent packing and you can concentrate more of your resources - chances are the Impies would surrender or glass Terra...

I don't know if surviving Imperium Navy units are to regroup in the Terran system, but essentially it's considered by both sides the prize and a trap.

In which case you end up with a reverse Invasion Earth scenario where the Imperials are the besieged defenders of Earth and must contend with a far superior force and the added complication of insurrections.

Of course, the Confederation is very keen not to have to fight above, on or under the Earth, if they can avoid it, since they want it intact, while the Imperium probably has considered a recreation of Stalingrad.

Which is why the Confederation's goal would be the retaking of the Solomani Sphere and then go back to take back Earth - if it is still there.

Spoiler:

Bland orders the scrubbing of the Earth

 

[mike wightman]

It isn't my definition nor data. I took that from a NASA description.

Have you calculated the mass of gasses in Pluto's atmosphere? It doesn't take long.
You know the diameter of Pluto, the height and pressure of its atmosphere and the relative abundance of the gases. No exact calculation required just an order of magnitude guestimate will be close enough.