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Passengers in Traveller

Now, consider if this trip have been planned under Traveller rules to go to an adjoining star system. First, for two adults, two separate cabins would have been required, and then for my 8-year old son, a third cabin, and for my 6-year old daughter, a fourth cabin.

a. Wouldn't they all fit into two normal staterooms?

I know High Guard says that passengers _should_ be provided with single staterooms (p 33), but the emphasis is on _should_. you can tell this because it says that military personnel must be provided wit the equivalent of half a stateroom each. It also discusses small staterooms on small craft, half the size of a normal stateroom, and able to allow hot-bunking (double occupancy by having it for half a day each person).

This hidden "should" option was formalised in MT: "Double occupancy of a standard stateroom is possible on a constant basis." (MT Referee's Manual, p 82, point 9.)


b. The quoted price of a stateroom is interesting.

A stateroom is Cr500,000 in CT, Cr400,000 in MT, and neither includes the 20% class discount (making the MT version "only" Cr320,000). The MT price was probably dropped because basic environment, basic & extended life-support, grav plates and inertial compensators, and computer support, have all been taken out as separate components (Cr68,040 not counting computing).

The interesting part is that a small craft stateroom only costs Cr50,000 (Cr40,000 in MT for a "small stateroom"). Now _that's_ closer to your pressurised shelter price, but it only holds 1 person.

So maybe the price difference is really because each item (stateroom vs pressure shelter) had its price set in isolation, pegged to the adventure situation. That is, it's a meta-game difference. If you're paying MCr37 minimum for a Beowulf, maybe you're not so concerned about paying for a stateroom. OTOH, if you're in a scenario that calls for you to be in the market for a pressurised shelter, maybe the designers thought that you would balk at the idea of paying much more than Cr50,000.

Thoughts?
 
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The cost of a stateroom in ship construction is 500,000 Credits... However... Model 317 Pressurized Shelter... is all of 50,000 credits.

Union Space Workers wages kick up the price of starship building, whereas the shelter was built by robots taking jobs away from people. Down with the robots!
 
Union Space Workers wages kick up the price of starship building, whereas the shelter was built by robots taking jobs away from people. Down with the robots!


Column_Technology-691bd7b4.jpeg
 
I'd expect Baron von Snoot to have access to his own ship, be it his personal yacht, or something "government." If the Baron was connected to a corporation, he'd simply use the equivalent of a corporate jet and put it all on the corporation's dime.

It's the well-to-do but not connected traveler that's likely to have a personal container home. It'd be sort of like someone with an RV today. They have some real cash to travel but aren't made of money so they're frugal with their credits.
Paying for a stateroom doesn't make sense within the rules.

After all, container homes already exist. I see no reason why in the future a self-contained unit with power wouldn't be available

cottage2-Plan2-590x390.jpg


5-x-20ft-Double-Bedroom-Container-Home.jpg


I'd also add that up through about the 60's there were freighters that offered passage at very reduced rates compared to liners. Even today these are still available. The rates are typically about $100 a day at most, often less.

http://wikitravel.org/en/Freighter_travel

That equates to having a cabin for a jump for maybe 1000 cr or less.

Am I mistaken, or is the power unit for your "self-contained unit with power" missing? There is also no fresh or grey water tankage, or air recycler. Or are these designs actually supposed to connect to the shipboard facilities?
 
They're re-purposed shipping containers and an offshoot of the "tiny house" movement.

They're not meant to be loaded aboard container ships and then lived in.

I refer you to Enoki's post. He is presenting them as examples of self contained shipping container staterooms for shipment in a trader's cargo bay.

He states that they are self contained with their own power.

They cannot be self contained without those items I listed.
 
I refer you to Enoki's post. He is presenting them as examples of self contained shipping container staterooms for shipment in a trader's cargo bay.


Hmmm... I read it slightly differently...

Enoki wrote "After all, container homes already exist." and appended two examples of the same at the end of his post. After reminding us that container homes already exist, he then goes onto to write "I see no reason why in the future a self-contained unit with power wouldn't be available."
 
Assuming the standard configuration for the starship, rather than the "here's my shipping container unit and I'm sleeping the family in it in the cargo hold, pal", here's my take on the "two people per stateroom maximum" requirement: Life Support System Limitations.

Why this, rather than anything else? OK, in no particular order, then, here we go...

  • CO2.
  • Excretion Waste recycling capabilities.
  • Temperature/climate control limitations.

The most obvious first. CO2.

CO2 is an obnoxious little bastard. You really can get on fine without it, but if it gets to a certain level, bingo, you're going to get hypoxia, and eventually die. No joke. This, from Kane International, Ltd.:

Code:
What are safe levels of CO and CO2 in rooms?

CO2

250-350ppm          Normal background concentration in outdoor ambient air
350-1,000ppm        Concentrations typical of occupied indoor spaces with
                    good air exchange
1,000-2,000ppm      Complaints of drowsiness and poor air.
2,000-5,000 ppm     Headaches, sleepiness and stagnant, stale, stuffy air.
                    Poor concentration, loss of attention, increased heart
                    rate and slight nausea may also be present.
5,000 ppm           Workplace exposure limit (as 8-hour TWA) in most
                    jurisdictions.
>40,000 ppm         Exposure may lead to serious oxygen deprivation
                    resulting in permanent brain damage, coma, even death.
CO

9 ppm CO            CO Max prolonged exposure (ASHRAE standard)
35 ppm CO           CO Max exposure for 8 hour work day (OSHA)
800 ppm CO          CO Death within 2 to 3 hours
12,800 ppm CO       CO Death within 1 to 3 minutes
Link: https://www.kane.co.uk/knowledge-centre/what-are-safe-levels-of-co-and-co2-in-rooms

Currently, there are devices designed to remove CO2 from the air; they generally revolve around a set of chemicals being used to absorb this unwanted gas from the air of a closed system (submarines and spacecraft, for example), and have a finite limit on how much they can absorb before becoming useless. It takes a fairly comprehensive factory facility to manufacture these filters, and they likely cannot be made on-the-fly with the materials to hand in a ship in space. There will undoubtedly be other ways to recycle the CO2 in ships in the future, probably involving specialist hydroponics (See the Serrano Legacy series of books by Elizabeth Moon), but these WILL take up valuable room, and require specialist crew to maintain them. Until then, chemical 'scrubbers'.

EDIT: NASA Paper on Regenerative Carbon Dioxide Removal Systems.

NASA has has, on the ISS, a "Carbon Dioxide Removal Assembly" that is fully contained, and does not need additional consumables such as refrigerant gases, to operate. It's somewhat heavy reading, but interesting none the less. Link to PDF document: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050210002.pdf

I'd imagine that the tech for this would be advanced enough to remove (pun intended) the CO2 argument from this posting ;)

Next up: Temperature/climate control limitations.

Everything mechanical and biological, when in operation, produces heat. Biological systems often also produce vapours, in the form of H2O. Both of these, if unmoderated, will cause a ships systems all manner of harm. Wather vapour can be regulated by dehumidifiers, which have a fairly good record of having few mechanical issues, but which have a finite capacity, of course. Likewise, heat can be moderated by the inclusion of refrigerant units in the closed-system life support equipment, but these require certain additional parts to operate at peak or even reduced capacity, such as compressed refrigerant gasses, which if expended or missing, stops the units from operating, and hey presto, runaway thermal overloading of ships systems ensue; computers and excessive heat tend not to mix, after all. I have no idea how excess heat might affect, for example, Zuchai crystals in the Engineering section when it comes to jump transitions - nothing good, I would imagine, though.

Lastly, waste recycling.

Humans (and other biological entities) produce some truly disgusting waste products in the normal course of events - and let's not even discuss abnormal events, here, as it's bad enough with only the normal crap (sic) to deal with.

Liquid waste (urination products) can be recyucled easily enough, although you do get similar limitations as for CO2, when it comes to this stuff. The processed and purified product is returned to the general potable water reservoir, the unrecyclable material (solids exist in urine as well, mostly microscopic) to the waste tanks to be flushed on connection to a starport waste extraction facility. The solid waste is vacuum dessicated (plenty of vacuum available from around a star ship in space, after all), the extracted vapours run through a similar system to the CO2 scrubbers to remove harmful gasses (methane, for example), which are then generally vented overboard, with the remaining useful gas (oxygen, oddly enough), returned to the life support gas tanks, the remaining solid waste passed to a waste tank, to again be flushed empty on connection to a starport waste extraction facility.

The capacity of the waste tanks are, as you'd imagine, the limiting factor.

Now, these systems are designed by the ship manufacturer to have a capacity of perhaps four weeks maximum, based on a maximum of two people per stateroom for that period. That's at maximum capacity operation, a status that invites breakdowns much more frequently that you'd likely want.Imagine a breakdown in, for example, the water reclamation system, when then dumps (sic) a load of pure urine into the potable water reservoir :eek:

The above are reasons why you should not overload your cabins with people. Simple, innit ;)
 
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Redcap, If the shipping container has its own APU and LS systems then these issues are taken care of.

The question is, since we haven't seen a design breakdown or floor plan for one yet, is can someone design a self contained system that keeps, say, 2-3 adults (going with the RV config)in enough comfort that they will not need to "visit" the ship for support (physical or mental/emotional, except in extremis) that fits in the space of a full sized (call it 10 dtons) shipping container.

To be completely self sufficient, I suppose it needs to be vacuum tight (in case it needs to be a survival bubble), so at least one real air lock.
 
Redcap, If the shipping container has its own APU and LS systems then these issues are taken care of.

The question is, since we haven't seen a design breakdown or floor plan for one yet, is can someone design a self contained system that keeps, say, 2-3 adults (going with the RV config)in enough comfort that they will not need to "visit" the ship for support (physical or mental/emotional, except in extremis) that fits in the space of a full sized (call it 10 dtons) shipping container.

To be completely self sufficient, I suppose it needs to be vacuum tight (in case it needs to be a survival bubble), so at least one real air lock.

OK, assuming that they go with the "shipping container cabin" option, a few thoughts:
  • If it's self-contained, where's the power coming from?
  • How does the waste product tank get flushed/emptied?
  • Does it require consumables (filters, refrigerant gasses, etc.) in order to continue functioning?
  • Is it easily maintainable (related to the last point above)?
  • What additional space does it require for its' occupants to enter and exit the obviously required airlock?
  • How does the atmospheric recycler dump excess heat? Is there a heat exchanger? How about an external heatsink?

I'd imagine a 10dT container would be far too small, somehow, given all the requirements.

Likewise, the purging of waste products would be a veritable nightmare - at the very least, you'd either have to cart the tanks off-ship to be individually purged (have you ever seen those portapotty 'turdis' things at public events get flushes on a daily - sometime more frequently - basis? It's utterly disgusting, if only from a vomit-inducing smells point of view), or have the containers hooked up in some way to the ship's external connections - and I can't see any engineer on a ship permitting that in any shape, form, or manner, from a purely safety point of view ("It's not in the manual, there's no Imperial Safety of Engineering waiver, and there's no darn way I'm drilling holes in the hold to get to those external hookups, or leaving bulkhead doors permanently open for them either - those'd be clear violations that'd kill my licence stone dead, Cap'n!")

So, we're back to built-in cabin space again ;)
 
Well, there's a bunch of unanswered questions on using containers, that open other related questions. For example:

Do other types of standard shipping containers require power? Refrigerated? Pressurized? Heated? Controlled environment? Shipping some stuff will require such conditions obviously, particularly if the cargo bay is unpressurized or not on the ship's environmental system during transit.

For what period of time does the personal container need power?

How much power is required?

Waste disposal / recycling and air conditioning are minor problems at most. These have largely already been solved with current technologies. I'd assume that even better ones are available in the future. So, CO2 isn't a problem. Even a good composting toilet today would handle the waste problem for several weeks.

If you assume a 30 day run time, then you'd need somewhere between say 4,000 kWh and 8,000 kWh of available power. That'd be roughly 5 to 10 kW per hour for the entire period. Doable with a fuel cell per the rules I'd think.

I'd guess you could get a pretty luxurious sleeps 4 system on about 24 tons displacement, maybe even on about 18. That's still way cheaper than four high passages. Of course, you wouldn't get a steward making your meals, turning down the bed, or leaving a mint on the pillow with that, but I think most people could live with that... :coffeesip:
 
Well, there's a bunch of unanswered questions on using containers, that open other related questions. For example:

Do other types of standard shipping containers require power? Refrigerated? Pressurized? Heated? Controlled environment? Shipping some stuff will require such conditions obviously, particularly if the cargo bay is unpressurized or not on the ship's environmental system during transit.

For what period of time does the personal container need power?

How much power is required?

Very good questions indeed :)

Waste disposal / recycling and air conditioning are minor problems at most. These have largely already been solved with current technologies. I'd assume that even better ones are available in the future. So, CO2 isn't a problem. Even a good composting toilet today would handle the waste problem for several weeks.

There will still be the problem of getting rid of it after a certain amount of time, if only due to the capacity issues!

If you assume a 30 day run time, then you'd need somewhere between say 4,000 kWh and 8,000 kWh of available power. That'd be roughly 5 to 10 kW per hour for the entire period. Doable with a fuel cell per the rules I'd think.

Yeah, that's a fairly safe solution, I'd say (also might solve another issue I've been looking at with regards to more ... vertical... cargo deliveries (air drop and contragrav retarded landings) ;) However, I couldn't find rules regarding fuel cells in MgT; any idea where to find them in there?

I'd guess you could get a pretty luxurious sleeps 4 system on about 24 tons displacement, maybe even on about 18. That's still way cheaper than four high passages. Of course, you wouldn't get a steward making your meals, turning down the bed, or leaving a mint on the pillow with that, but I think most people could live with that... :coffeesip:

Basic barracks up to a 3-star motel ;)
 
One of the things that always gets me when this topic comes up is how fast it gets down to a unitary measure. Yes it does say 4 dTons, and 500 Kcr per person and the bit about double occupancy, But is also says a bunch of differing public space comes out of that slice of ship as well. I for one general just lump it all together and figure out accommodations later. Frequently the Middle and Crew Dorms are one dTon accommodation blocks with shared freshers in each. And work from there....

As for said Shelter (jTas Issue #6 pg.35) it is 13 dTons fully assembled. It does say it is presurized, but nothing about gravity control.

I am not sure I would want to try and run it's power plant in the hold of a active starship if for nothing else the ship would have to process the extra heat said power plant gives off. Though I wouldn't suspect that running a jumper to ships power would be that much of a issue.

As for the the topic of using container mounted accommodations in the hold I can actually see that one, though I suspect for every number of standard containers equipped as accommodations you would need one equipped as a support module to provide power and sanitation support. I would also expect there would need to be some extra wasted space in hold equipped this way as in normal operations there isn't room to access individual containers in a loaded hull.
 
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