Passengers in Traveller
- Thread starter Timerover51
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Waste disposal is easily catered to, at least for that week in hyperspace.
Also, hyperspace seems the perfect time to flush the tanks, and avoid paying the starport waste disposal charges or fines from the local environmental protection agencies.
Also, hyperspace seems the perfect time to flush the tanks, and avoid paying the starport waste disposal charges or fines from the local environmental protection agencies.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
10 dtons is 135-140 cubic meters. Figuring a 3 meter roof (just shy of ten feet), that is a footprint of 45 square meters. If we go with 4.5 meters by 10 meters (just shy of 15 feet by a bit more than 32 feet) What we have is the equivalent of a Class A motor home. With no need for a "cockpit", and the options of having slide outs to make the living space larger once placed in the cargo hold, there is more than enough living space for 2 adults at least.
LS is serviced just like a ship's. At lower tech port facilities exchange grey water for potable, restock food stuffs and recharge air/change filters. At higher tech the container itself would have recyclers.
A small power plant ala an air raft or g carrier is sufficient to run lights and entertainment. Just put it where the Class A motor home keeps the engine. Replace the driver's and co driver's doors, and the cabin door with a small craft air lock.
Since this is based on a standard large "conex" type shipping container, it should fit thru the cargo hatches of most freighters.
And it is well known just how basic to just how high end these class A motor homes can be.
We just need someone who has the skills to do a floor plan. I don't have the skill with MSpaint, and I don't own something like Campaign Cartographer.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Redcap, have you read the article on the Model 317 Pressu rized Shelter, written by Marc Miller, that appears in JTAS No. 6, pages 35 and 36? The following is part of the description of the shelter.
It also includes an airlock. Basically, the shelter is a container house as described by others. It is designed to be self-contained for a period of over 2 months by 8 people.
Given the price of 50,000 Credits, my view it that the 500,000 credit charge for a ship stateroom should have no problem paying for enough life support equipment to put 4 people in the stateroom. On private ships, such as a Yacht, you can put 2 people per stateroom without any additional charge for the stateroom, clearly, the rules assume a fair amount of excess life support. In the ANNIC NOVA adventure, the staterooms are clearly being used by one individual. That adventure was also written by Marc Miller.
The one person per stateroom is strictly an artificial rule designed to make the players work very hard to cover the costs of a ship.
It also includes an airlock. Basically, the shelter is a container house as described by others. It is designed to be self-contained for a period of over 2 months by 8 people.
Given the price of 50,000 Credits, my view it that the 500,000 credit charge for a ship stateroom should have no problem paying for enough life support equipment to put 4 people in the stateroom. On private ships, such as a Yacht, you can put 2 people per stateroom without any additional charge for the stateroom, clearly, the rules assume a fair amount of excess life support. In the ANNIC NOVA adventure, the staterooms are clearly being used by one individual. That adventure was also written by Marc Miller.
The one person per stateroom is strictly an artificial rule designed to make the players work very hard to cover the costs of a ship.
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pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Further, later versions of Trav actually spell out allowing more than one per state room---T5 even spells out the single, double, triple staterooms and even suites.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Life support for single occupancy staterooms over two months for eight people costs thirty two kay.
Weirdly, double occupancy would set you back forty kay.
Weirdly, double occupancy would set you back forty kay.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
For what its worth, both the 1977 and 1981 editions of Book 2 spell out double occupancy in a stateroom.
I think the bigger issue is that comparing travel of 20th Century First World transportation to the travel found in the setting implied in Traveller Book 2 is like comparing apples to cocker spaniels.
If someone wants their space travel between worlds to feel like going on a cruise in the later half of the 20th century, that's great.
But Book 2 isn't there to help you do that. Book 2 is there to build a setting of pirates, semi-rare safe fuel, limited cargo and passengers traveling between worlds, risks of misjumps, risk of system failure that will leave you days if not months from help, becoming stranded on worlds lacking proper technology for repairs, gunners primed to defend merchant ships, and so on.
While that cannot be repeated enough, even endless repetitions won't get the point across to those unable to understand it.
I'm in the choir you're preaching to, CH. Most of these others? They're not even in the church.
By the way, great blog post this week. I really enjoyed it.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Book 2 of 77, sure. Even A class starport systems are infested with opportunist pirates. Book 2 of 81, not so much unless you go to the places without decent starports.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Okay. So Book 2 (1977) everything I listed except the pirates hang around the better starports and not much travel to system with lower end starports.
Book 2 (1981) everything I listed except the pirates don't hang around the better starports and instead hang around worlds with lower end starports.
That list for either edition suggest a very different environment than one found but tourist hopping on an Alaskan Cruise at any time after Traveller was first published.
Now note, I'm talking about the rules found in Basic Traveller and the setting implied by those rules. I'm not talking about the setting as it became described in fluff text over the years, which very often described the look and feel of 20th Century First World travel even if the rules undercut that.
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
As far as the CT rules are concerned, you already have the small craft cabin, at 50,000Cr. So no need to go outside the rules.
However, remember that the common areas have to come out of the SCC 'budget', so figure a Pullman berth with fold-down beds and seats for 1 ton and the common area for the other ton. That's not a lot of space, more like steerage on old steamers rather then a pleasure cruise sort of space.
I would also consider effects on crew long term for double bunking. Should affect crew retention and recruiting, lack of special facilities or galleys and limited fresher accommodations.
The Scout service went full stateroom for their ships. For a rescue or personnel move or special mission they likely double bunk, but again not long term.
The other effect would be tickets. I would imagine small craft cabins could not pull in High Passage fares, Mid Passage Only.
As to the OP's intentions re: cheaper ticket travel, perhaps 4000 Cr for a Steerage Passage ticket in an SCC. The high percentage of the ticket that goes to life support costs is offset by a lower percentage of mortgage service the space has to provide.
In that case, Mid Passage tickets would act to bump Steerage the same way High Passage bumps Mid.
Maybe in desperate circumstances a player character may have to pay High Passage for a steerage space to get off planet. Always looking to turn some mechanic into play value.
However, remember that the common areas have to come out of the SCC 'budget', so figure a Pullman berth with fold-down beds and seats for 1 ton and the common area for the other ton. That's not a lot of space, more like steerage on old steamers rather then a pleasure cruise sort of space.
I would also consider effects on crew long term for double bunking. Should affect crew retention and recruiting, lack of special facilities or galleys and limited fresher accommodations.
The Scout service went full stateroom for their ships. For a rescue or personnel move or special mission they likely double bunk, but again not long term.
The other effect would be tickets. I would imagine small craft cabins could not pull in High Passage fares, Mid Passage Only.
As to the OP's intentions re: cheaper ticket travel, perhaps 4000 Cr for a Steerage Passage ticket in an SCC. The high percentage of the ticket that goes to life support costs is offset by a lower percentage of mortgage service the space has to provide.
In that case, Mid Passage tickets would act to bump Steerage the same way High Passage bumps Mid.
Maybe in desperate circumstances a player character may have to pay High Passage for a steerage space to get off planet. Always looking to turn some mechanic into play value.
Often that is the feeling I get from a lot of the Traveller fanbase. Every stateroom is a Mini-suite that you do everything in. And that is a Middle passage. Lots of 1st world disease in the crowd.
Yep, A lot of Traveller in my head looks a lot like Southeast Asia the Indian Ocean and the South Pacific. Lots of little places with there own problems and problems imposed by the various larger powers. While there are a FEW big ports serving Big ships they are mostly set dressing for the region.
Back around to Passengers. One of the issues that Traveller has had is that accommodations and the related are wound up tight to what the Life Support system will support. My favorite solution to this is a classic answer with the supplies for Life support being a separate critter from the accommodation. With that route one can cram as many people into the system as you conceive, burning through limited supplies as well as the joys of too many people for not enough comodes. Furthermore I like the Keith Brother idea of splitting out provisions from core life support, So we can play, "Gots enough Air, but we are plumb out of anything to eat". (Or worse yet All we have got left is Rat Bars and Bananas).
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Not to bust bubbles here, but independent of the OP's original concern with stateroom vs. habitat costing, I just don't see many scenarios where freighters would voluntarily undercut their passage prices, or load up a container where it's life support could fail and now in the middle of jump they have to hook up to ship systems.
Again, have to go back to private railcars as a model, where eventually a regulation was passed in which any private car had to buy 17 tickets. The cars mostly went away, except for business cars.
There still are some private cars in the US, many chartered, this is literally the Amtrak fee structure for cars.
https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/765/238/Private-Car-Tariff-Rates-Addendum-4.pdf
Also, they have to be able to hook up to HEP standard power and otherwise be compliant with connection standards.
Now, you could go the other way, and assume a chummy privileged relationship, such as what existed in the rail baron era. Private railcars mostly hooked up and rolled for free, as a business courtesy.
Some were business or personal cars of railroad owners or major officers. They were given courtesy rides, often along with free passes and free Pullman passes if they were in the passenger business.
Some were major customers who were given free rides as they sent business the railroad's way. The railroad then arranged for courtesy rides through roads that could take the car to their final destination (often a posh resort).
This sort of 'bigshots ride free' is perhaps the sort of thing that you figure happens in your universe, maybe not. Not exactly the OP's cheaper fare direction, but something you might like putting in.
The other scenarios I can think of for this market are people who prefer their chosen stateroom environment and their personal items, or security arrangements.
Recluses or maybe a performer diva complete with posse, the Traveller equivalent of a tour bus (and there were such personalities in the steam rail era, with cooks servants and people they wanted to travel with).
Or possibly discrete travel with their own servants/protection without the cost or risk of an identifiable separate ship.
Again, have to go back to private railcars as a model, where eventually a regulation was passed in which any private car had to buy 17 tickets. The cars mostly went away, except for business cars.
There still are some private cars in the US, many chartered, this is literally the Amtrak fee structure for cars.
https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/765/238/Private-Car-Tariff-Rates-Addendum-4.pdf
Also, they have to be able to hook up to HEP standard power and otherwise be compliant with connection standards.
Now, you could go the other way, and assume a chummy privileged relationship, such as what existed in the rail baron era. Private railcars mostly hooked up and rolled for free, as a business courtesy.
Some were business or personal cars of railroad owners or major officers. They were given courtesy rides, often along with free passes and free Pullman passes if they were in the passenger business.
Some were major customers who were given free rides as they sent business the railroad's way. The railroad then arranged for courtesy rides through roads that could take the car to their final destination (often a posh resort).
This sort of 'bigshots ride free' is perhaps the sort of thing that you figure happens in your universe, maybe not. Not exactly the OP's cheaper fare direction, but something you might like putting in.
The other scenarios I can think of for this market are people who prefer their chosen stateroom environment and their personal items, or security arrangements.
Recluses or maybe a performer diva complete with posse, the Traveller equivalent of a tour bus (and there were such personalities in the steam rail era, with cooks servants and people they wanted to travel with).
Or possibly discrete travel with their own servants/protection without the cost or risk of an identifiable separate ship.
From another member of the choir...
Yea, the implied SETTING OF PLAY of the Classic Traveller rules does not support a family of four taking a leisure cruise. Consider what Christopher has pointed out about salaries as stated in the rules and the cost of passage.
The thought that comes to my mind is the family of four taking passage in the setting of play is desperate. Look at what folks do in various corners of our world to get to a better life. Some of them are able to pull enough together out of their meager earnings and savings and travel Middle or High. Most if they travel at all are travelling Low (hmm, wonder how the low passage survival rate compares to Mediteranean water crossings?).
Now deeper inside the Imperium, things may well be different (maybe things are cheaper there, and maybe salaries are even better there). But the implied setting of the rules is different.
I like that. That's a setting that looks fun to play in.
Playing travel the world by plane in the real world, that doesn't sound like much of a game...
Yea, the implied SETTING OF PLAY of the Classic Traveller rules does not support a family of four taking a leisure cruise. Consider what Christopher has pointed out about salaries as stated in the rules and the cost of passage.
The thought that comes to my mind is the family of four taking passage in the setting of play is desperate. Look at what folks do in various corners of our world to get to a better life. Some of them are able to pull enough together out of their meager earnings and savings and travel Middle or High. Most if they travel at all are travelling Low (hmm, wonder how the low passage survival rate compares to Mediteranean water crossings?).
Now deeper inside the Imperium, things may well be different (maybe things are cheaper there, and maybe salaries are even better there). But the implied setting of the rules is different.
I like that. That's a setting that looks fun to play in.
Playing travel the world by plane in the real world, that doesn't sound like much of a game...
You know, reading this last little bit of thread, I struck by how true this is. My own imagination see's staterooms as more something like what I saw in the old black and white films I watched on Sunday afternoon as a kid. Things set more in the 1930's - to- 50's or so.
I wouldn't even say that you couldn't get a modern cruise experience but that is the bread-and-butter of FASA's King Richard, not the vast, vast majority of ships. Something like a Subsidized Liner should be like flying in a transcontinental passenger jet, not a luxury cruise. A High Passage is luxurious in comparison to a Middle Passage, but that is arguably a low bar to meet.
Honestly, it would probably be worthwhile to add a extra level of passage, perhaps one that is only semi-legal, "Steerage" - where the captain has converted (temporarily) some or all of the cargo space to passenger space. Some air purification has been added to handle the strain on the ships system, some bottled water (maybe), but a way to capture the misery of actual steerage passage that isn't quite as cargo-ish as Low Berths. Historically steerage was pretty horrific, but is was cheap...
D.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
It would!
I have always imagined Fast Drug to be part of the package of High Passage. You have a Steward there to cater to your needs and safety while reality blurs by fairly safely and you live very slowly.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
"Flying in a transcontintal passenger jet"... for a week and a half.
As for retrofitting the ship, absolutely. The designs in Book 2 are baselines -- and in my view, built for regions of space with uniformly higher pops and high tech levels. The crew of a ship might well rework it to make it able to carry more passengers -- especially if they are desperate.
One thing that occurred to me was a Patron gig. A Free Trader crews has to get a clan or noble house off world during a civil war. No more starships will be coming for a while (or there's no certainty at least when another ship will be coming) and the ship can't hold everyone. Efforts have to be made to re-fit cargo hold on the fly as quickly as possible. No guarantee it'll work and it might put a strain on the entire life support of the ship.
