• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Pondering starship evolution

Well, so, as the squeaky hinge of Pandora Box opens.

Lets talk then of "fuel riders". "That's not a drop tank, it's a fuel rider."
Nah. Unless it's got a bridge, computer (if over 100Td) and drives, then it's a rider.

Otherwise, it's a cargo pod that happens to be able to store cryogenic hydrogen.

Oh, and the carrying ship needs drop tank fittings (specifically the high-speed/volume pumps) to use the contents for Jump in either case.
 
Also, IMO/IMTU, standard drop tanks are "drop-and-pop" (destroyed on ejection) and not "return for deposit" because breaking the tank up means each of the pieces has a smaller 100-diameter distance, so it's safer. Yes, a brief 1g kick gets you clear -- no problem. But it means your m-drive reliability becomes safety-critical.
 
But it means your m-drive reliability becomes safety-critical.
The horror.
The horror!
The very notion that maneuver drives might be "meaningful" (somehow) to interstellar travel(lers)!
The ... horror ... :eek:

And on a side note, the reliability of the drop tank ejection system also becomes a safety-critical issue. :unsure:
REGINA/REGINA (2314-A788899-A) 186-1106
A spokesman for Tukera Lines today announced indefinite suspension of high capacity commercial service to the Regina subsector pending outcome of the official investigation of the Trimkhana-Brilliance tragedy.
Less than a month ago, the 800-ton liner Trimkhana-Brilliance was lost with 217 lives due to a jump capacitor discharge immediately prior to jump. While all four survivors of the disaster are still under intensive medical care, interviews with the one surviving crew member indicate that the capacitor discharge may have been due to a delay in jump after full charging due to a failure of the port inboard L-Hyd drop tank to separate completely.
A Tukera Lines official press release stated that a team of company engineers would be “taking a long hard look at General Shipyard’s quality control standards.”
In the wake of the announcement of high-capacity service suspension, General shipyards common stock fell 34 points on the Regina exchange before exchange officials suspended trade. Oberlindes Lines stock closed up 5¾.
 
:unsure:
🙄

:unsure:
🧐

:unsure:
🤫

I may have found something. :unsure:



Everyone knows about the 200 ton J1 Free Trader (LBB2.81, p19) and the 200 ton J2 Far Trader (LBB S7, p23-27).
But in a world where the "formula" underpinning LBB2 standard drives has been "reverse engineered" so that you don't have to be "chained to the TABLE" (per se) ... is the 200 ton form factor for a J2 Far Trader design actually "as good as you can do" ...? :unsure:

Spoiler alert: The answer is NO.



What ought to be happening is ... a 300 ton J2 Far Trader instead. :cool:
Why 300 tons?
Because crew requirements and drives ... and how "everything adds up" in small packages proportionally under 1000 tons.



The First Principles approach here is to ask ... what is the "largest" size of drives that can be staffed by a single engineering position, so as to keep crew numbers required (meaning stateroom accommodations and life support overhead costs) and skills (meaning crew salaries) as low as possible?
Short answer ... if you need 1 crew position per 35 tons of drives installed into a hull of 200+ tons, then stopping at 35 tons of drives installed is the wisest choice.

Under LBB2 standard drives, that "sweet spot" appears when using either C/C/C drives (code: 1 @ 600 tons) or B/D/D drives (code:1/2/2 @ 400 tons).



The difficulty with using B/D/D drives in a 200 ton form factor is that the power plant code: 4 result dramatically increases fuel load in a way that is remarkably unhelpful for achieving revenue tonnage fraction.
  • 35 tons for B/D/D drives (code: 2/4/4 @ TL=9)
  • 80 tons for fuel (40+40)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 ton for model/1bis
35+80+20+1 = 136 tons
200 - 136 = 64 tons remaining for crew, passengers and cargo (and fuel purification, if you add that into the mix)

Minimum crew positions are ... pilot, engineer, medic ... which will cost 12 tons for staterooms, leaving 52 tons remaining for revenue tonnage. If you keep the ship as a "cargo only, no passenger service" ship, you can spend 9 tons for a fuel purification plant (recommended for free traders operating on the fringes) and still have 43 tons remaining for cargo capacity, but no weaponry.

Add 2 turrets and a gunner/gunner to the crew who is expected to crew both turrets and you're down to 37 tons of cargo capacity after allocating 1 stateroom for the additional crew member and 2 tons of fire control.

A quick and nimble ship, but one that is going to have a difficult time generating enough revenue to pay for payroll (Cr13,650 per month) and life support overhead expenses (Cr16,000 per 4 weeks). However a contract to deliver X-mail will certainly help offset a lot of those expenses (Cr25,000 revenue per delivery, requires 5 tons of cargo space).

So in terms of being a "packet courier" such a design ought to work decently well, but for most other applications it would be pretty limited.



Contrast this with using C/C/C drives in a 300 ton form factor.
  • 35 tons for C/C/C drives (code: 2/2/2 @ TL=9)
  • 80 tons for fuel (60+20)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 ton for model/1bis
35+80+20+1 = 136 tons
300 - 136 = 164 tons remaining for crew, passengers and cargo (and fuel purification, if you add that into the mix)

Minimum crew positions are ... pilot, navigator, engineer, medic ... which will cost 16 tons for staterooms, leaving 148 tons remaining for revenue tonnage. With that kind of margin, adding a TL=9 fuel purification plant costing 9 tons is a NO BRAINER, leaving 139 tons remaining for weapons+crew, passenger service and cargo.

It would be more expensive to build than a 200 ton J2 Far Trader ... but the increase in revenue tonnage capacity would more than make up for it. :unsure:
 
So for reference, the revenue tonnage allocation of a 200 ton J1 Free Trader (LBB2.81, p19) breaks down like so:
  • 28 tons for 7 staterooms (1 steward, 6 high passengers)
  • 10 tons for 20 low berths (20 low passengers)
  • 2 tons for fire control for 2 hardpoints
  • 82 tons for cargo hold
  • 0 tons for fuel purification plant
28+10+2+82 = 122 tons



The revenue tonnage allocation of a 200 ton J2 Far Trader (LBB S7, p23-27) breaks down like so:
  • 28 tons for 7 staterooms (7 high passengers)
  • 2 tons for 4 low berths (4 low passengers)
  • 2 tons for fire control for 2 hardpoints
  • 4 tons for air/raft
  • 61 tons for cargo hold
  • 0 tons for fuel purification plant
28+2+2+4+61+0 = 97 tons



So with those relative numbers in mind (and granted, the Marava class "doesn't add up right" as printed in LBB S7, so errata needs to be involved), what would *I* want to do when working with a 300 ton form factor mounting C/C/C drives in it for performance codes: 2/2/2? :unsure:

Well ... :rolleyes:
  • 35 tons for C/C/C drives (code: 2/2/2 @ TL=9)
  • 80 tons for fuel (60+20)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 ton for model/1bis
  • 16 tons for 4 crew single occupancy staterooms (pilot, ship's boat/gunner, engineer, steward/medic)
  • 32 tons for 8 high passenger staterooms
  • 2 tons for 4 low passenger berths
  • 16 ton hangar bay (escort fighter @ TL=9)
  • 4 tons for vehicle berth (air/raft)
  • 62 tons for cargo hold
    • 60 tons capacity collapsible fuel tank (0.6 tons when empty)
    • 1.4 tons for life support reserves (210 person/weeks = 17.5 weeks for 12 people)
35+80+20+1+16+32+32+4+16+2+62 = 300 tons :cool:



That's how I would do it.
 
So for reference, the revenue tonnage allocation of a 200 ton J1 Free Trader (LBB2.81, p19) breaks down like so:
  • 28 tons for 7 staterooms (1 steward, 6 high passengers)
  • 10 tons for 20 low berths (20 low passengers)
  • 2 tons for fire control for 2 hardpoints
  • 82 tons for cargo hold
  • 0 tons for fuel purification plant
28+10+2+82 = 122 tons



The revenue tonnage allocation of a 200 ton J2 Far Trader (LBB S7, p23-27) breaks down like so:
  • 28 tons for 7 staterooms (7 high passengers)
  • 2 tons for 4 low berths (4 low passengers)
  • 2 tons for fire control for 2 hardpoints
  • 4 tons for air/raft
  • 61 tons for cargo hold
  • 0 tons for fuel purification plant
28+2+2+4+61+0 = 97 tons



So with those relative numbers in mind (and granted, the Marava class "doesn't add up right" as printed in LBB S7, so errata needs to be involved), what would *I* want to do when working with a 300 ton form factor mounting C/C/C drives in it for performance codes: 2/2/2? :unsure:

Well ... :rolleyes:
  • 35 tons for C/C/C drives (code: 2/2/2 @ TL=9)
  • 80 tons for fuel (60+20)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 ton for model/1bis
  • 16 tons for 4 crew single occupancy staterooms (pilot, ship's boat/gunner, engineer, steward/medic)
  • 32 tons for 8 high passenger staterooms
  • 2 tons for 4 low passenger berths
  • 16 ton hangar bay (escort fighter @ TL=9)
  • 4 tons for vehicle berth (air/raft)
  • 62 tons for cargo hold
    • 60 tons capacity collapsible fuel tank (0.6 tons when empty)
    • 1.4 tons for life support reserves (210 person/weeks = 17.5 weeks for 12 people)
35+80+20+1+16+32+32+4+16+2+62 = 300 tons :cool:



That's how I would do it.
I would probably throw 2 tons more to low passenger as that category is more likely to fill up and gives you merc/prisoner capacity for other duty. Spring for the full 3 hardpoints and space and possibly one more crew stateroom for double bunking gunners.

I like the Steward/Medic pairing for double duty, it’s a natural. Originally stewardesses in US air travel were partially nurses, beyond the medical safety training nowadays.

Speaking of crew staterooms, I think you missed one additional cost increase- past 200 tons you have to have a navigator.
 
what would *I* want to do when working with a 300 ton form factor mounting C/C/C drives in it for performance codes: 2/2/2? :unsure:

Well ... :rolleyes:
So.
Here's where things start coming around full circle, back to my research on 16 ton Boxes that can be carried internally (in a cargo hold or hangar bay) or docked and towed externally, in order to "flex" a portion of a starship's displacement tonnage between internal and external locations.

Also, it looks like I made a copy/paste math error earlier. 🫣
  • 35 tons for C/C/C drives (code: 2/2/2 @ TL=9)
  • 80 tons for fuel (60+20)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 ton for model/1bis
  • No hardpoints or fire control
  • 160 ton hangar bay
    1. 16 tons for Escort Fighter (TL=9)
    2. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (crew quarters: pilot/navigator, ship's boat/gunner, engineer, steward/medic)
    3. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    4. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    5. 16 tons for Cargo Box
      • 6 tons for Vehicle Berth (Speeder, TL=9)
    6. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    7. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    8. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    9. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    10. 16 tons for Cargo Box
  • 2 tons for 4 low passenger berths
  • 2 tons for Cargo Hold
    • 60 ton capacity Collapsible Fuel Tank (0.6 tons when empty, occupies hangar bay/empty cargo boxes when filled)
    • 1.4 tons for Life Support Reserves (210 person/weeks = 17.5 weeks for 4+8=12 persons)
35+80+20+1+160+2+2 = 300 tons

J2 Revenue Tonnage:
  • 8x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 90 tons cargo capacity
J2+2 Revenue Tonnage:
  • 8x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 30 tons cargo capacity


Now that's what I call a FAR Trader. :cool:💰
Remarkably useful for "off J1 main" free trading.
Maybe call it a Long Trader instead, because of the double jump flex capability? :unsure:
 
I like the Steward/Medic pairing for double duty, it’s a natural. Originally stewardesses in US air travel were partially nurses, beyond the medical safety training nowadays.
Yes. It looks like their job is to read a safety briefing and dispense snacks and beverages throughout the flight.

That's the sideline.

Their real job is to get everyone out of the plane as quickly as possible -- even when that plane is upside-down, half-full of water, and ON FIRE. :)

That and the ability to speak Jive, and arrange the line of people waiting to knock some sense into hysterical passengers.
 
So.
Here's where things start coming around full circle, back to my research on 16 ton Boxes that can be carried internally (in a cargo hold or hangar bay) or docked and towed externally, in order to "flex" a portion of a starship's displacement tonnage between internal and external locations.
Here's the next step in the thought processes involved in building a starship that can "flex" configure between internal and external stowage of 16 ton Boxes.

If you've got C/C/C drives, those drives are going to be:
  • Code: 1 @ 600 tons
  • Code: 2 @ 300 tons
  • Code: 3 @ 200 tons
So if you want to have a J2 starship with C/C/C drives, you simply choose a 300 ton hull and that's the end of it, right? :unsure:

Well ... not so fast. :rolleyes:
Because when external loading while under power with maneuver and jump drives becomes a possibility, there are some additional factors to consider before settling onto a final desired class displacement tonnage.

According to LBB5.80, p32 ... big craft (100+ tons) will ALWAYS consume 110% of their tonnage displacement when carried by other craft. I broaden/extrapolate that rule out to mean that the 110% displacement applies to both internal (cargo hold or hangar bay) and external (hard docked to the hull) stowage locations, for reasons of consistency and intellectual honesty.

That means that if you have a 300 ton starship and you try to "buddy tow" an unpowered hull of the same displacement, you're dealing with a combined 300+300*1.1=630 tons of displacement ... which is over the 600 tons @ code: 1 for C/C/C drives defined earlier.

So if all you're worried about is being able to "buddy tow" big craft of your own class of ship, you basically take the maximum displacement and divide it by 2.1 to find the hull size that can "tow itself" through maneuver and jump when baseline performance is J2/2G.
600/2.1 = 285.7 = round down/drop fractions for reasons of intellectual honesty ... meaning 285 tons

285*1.1 = 313.5
285+313.5 = 598.5 (under 600 = code: 1)

286*1.1 = 314.6
286+314.6 = 600.6 (over 600 = code: nope)

So if you've got a circumstance where deliveries of starships off the construction line need to be made to clients in a different star system (we deliver) then you're going to want to be doing a "buddy tow" type of transport arrangement in order to make those deliveries to interstellar clients.



But wait ... there's more. ;)

What if you want to be able to "buddy tow" other big craft that are up to HALF your own code: 1 performance limit on displacement?
So if you can still get code: 1 out of your drives @ 600 tons ... how big can your own starship be if you want to be able to tow a 300 ton big craft through maneuver and/or jump?
600 - 300*1.1 = 270 tons

So if your J2/2G starship with C/C/C drives is constructed on a 270 ton form factor, you can "buddy tow" other starships that are up to 300 tons in displacement, which is useful for Rescue & Recovery, not to mention salvage work, in addition to more mundane applications such as delivering starships that have been constructed to clients in neighboring star systems (we deliver).



So are we done yet?
Of course not! 😅

Because if you adjust that 270 ton hull limit down by another 2 tons to being 268 tons-

Wait.
Why would anyone want a 268 ton starship? 🤨
That makes no sense! o_O

Except ... it does. :sneaky:
Why?
Because a 268 ton hull starship can externally tow 2x 16 ton Boxes in order to achieve 268+(2*16)=300 tons total displacement = J2/2G performance from C/C/C drives installed.

But wait ... if the starship hull "shrinks" from 300 tons down to 268 tons, won't that impact the required allocation for jump fuel?
Yes it does! 😁



So here's what happens when you take the above 300 ton hull form factor and optimize it for a 268 ton hull form factor instead.
  • 35 tons for C/C/C drives (code: 2/2/2 @ TL=9)
  • 73.6 tons for fuel (J2@268=53.6, PP2=20)
  • 9 tons for fuel purification plant (TL=9, 200 tons capacity is minimum)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 ton for model/1bis
  • No hardpoints or fire control
  • 112 ton hangar bay
    1. 16 tons for Escort Fighter (TL=9)
    2. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (crew quarters: pilot/navigator, ship's boat/gunner, engineer, steward/medic)
    3. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    4. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    5. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    6. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    7. 16 tons for Cargo Box
  • External towing capacity: 332 tons
    • 2x 16 ton Boxes = J2/2G performance (300 tons)
    • 301 ton big craft = J1/1G performance (599.1 tons)
    • 20x 16 ton Boxes = J1/1G performance (588 tons)
  • Vehicle Berth (Speeder, TL=9)
  • 11.4 tons for Cargo Hold(s)
    • 112 ton capacity Collapsible Fuel Tank (0.64 tons when empty, occupies hangar bay/empty cargo boxes when filled)
    • 1.28 tons for Life Support Reserves (192 person/weeks = 16 weeks for 4+8=12 persons)
    • 5 tons for 10 low passenger berths OR mail vault for x-mail
35+73.6+9+20+1+112+6+11.4 = 268 tons

Further optimization of the starship hull displacement in order to "optimize the mobility" of 16 ton Box form factors between the internal and external locations when it comes to computing fuel consumption when multi-jumping ... so even THIS spreadsheet analysis isn't FULLY optimized yet for all "long endurance" use cases. Might need to move down to a 252 ton form factor (so as to move 3x Boxes external while retaining J2 performance) in order to make it really sing in terms of J2+2 flexibility, which is rather remarkable for a TL=9 starship design intended for commercial service.

Although, a 248 ton hull would permit 22x Boxes to be docked externally. :unsure:
248+22*16 = 600 tons combined displacement, yielding J1/1G/PP1 drive performance.
 
So here's what happens when you take the above 300 ton hull form factor and optimize it for a 268 ton hull form factor instead.
And here's what happens if shrinking all the way down to a 248 ton hull that I was analyzing in the previous post.
  • 35 tons for C/C/C drives (code: 2/2/2 @ TL=9)
  • 69.6 tons for fuel (J2@248=49.6, PP2=20)
  • 9 tons for fuel purification plant (TL=9, 200 tons capacity is minimum)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 ton for model/1bis
  • No hardpoints or fire control
  • 112 ton hangar bay
    1. 16 tons for Escort Fighter (TL=9)
    2. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (crew quarters: pilot/navigator, ship's boat/gunner, engineer, steward/medic)
    3. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    4. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    5. 16 tons for Cargo Box
      • 5 tons for 10 low passenger berths OR mail vault for x-mail
      • 6 tons for Vehicle Berth (Speeder, TL=9)
    6. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    7. 16 tons for Cargo Box
  • External towing capacity: 352 tons
    • 3x 16 ton Boxes = J2/2G performance (248+16*3=296 tons)
    • 320 ton big craft = J1/1G performance (248+320*1.1=600 tons)
    • 22x 16 ton Boxes = J1/1G performance (248+16*22=600 tons)
  • 1.4 tons for Cargo Hold(s)
    • 48 ton capacity Collapsible Fuel Tank (0.48 tons when empty, occupies hangar bay/empty cargo boxes when filled)
    • 0.92 tons for Life Support Reserves (138 person/weeks = 11.5 weeks for 4+8=12 persons)
35+69.6+9+20+1+112+1.4 = 248 tons



J2 context (1 ticket)
Revenue tonnage capacity:
  • 8x high passengers
  • 10x low passengers OR 5 tons x-mail
    • 3x Cargo Boxes external (37 tons cargo)
    • 48 tons hangar bay internal (48 tons cargo)
  • 37+48=85 tons cargo capacity
100% manifest ticket revenues: Cr175,000 (low passengers) OR Cr190,000 (x-mail)
6 ports of call per 12 weeks @ 100% manifest ticket revenues: MCr1.05 (low passengers) OR MCr1.14 (x-mail)



J2+2 context (2 tickets)
Revenue tonnage capacity:
  • 8x high passengers
  • 10x low passengers OR 5 tons x-mail
    • 3x Cargo Boxes external (37 tons cargo), then moved internal for second jump
100% manifest ticket revenues: Cr254,000 (low passengers) OR Cr259,000 (x-mail)
4 ports of call per 12 weeks @ 100% manifest ticket revenues: MCr1.016 (low passengers) OR MCr1.036 (x-mail)



You can (of course) continue to "massage" the details further if you really want to, but I would like to think that by this juncture I've made my point. As soon as you introduce external towing, modularized container shipping (that can be located internal or external) and collapsible fuel tanks to enable double jumping ... a whole lot of extra variables enter the engineering and economics optimization equations. Even more importantly, the "form follows function" demands will often times yield otherwise "strange" optimal tonnages which do not fall neatly onto the Multiples Of 100 pattern that is typically used for starship construction.
 
Even more importantly, the "form follows function" demands will often times yield otherwise "strange" optimal tonnages which do not fall neatly onto the Multiples Of 100 pattern that is typically used for starship construction.
I think the first major take away I have from reading this thread is that I need to resist the "Multiples Of 100" as a forced rule. Be open to various alternative numbers. I know how interesting I found some of the 150 dton scouts, but I admit, I tend to always try and force my ideas into an even 100 dton number. :) (y)
 
Aircraft had foldable wings to accommodate aircraft carriers. HEIGHT will be the biggest issue for most Vehicles (real trucks need about 4 meters of clearance) and virtually ALL ships have sub-3 meter ceiling heights. That suggests a market for vehicles that “kneel” to lower the headroom … leaving just Length and Width as the critical dimensions.
The Type R in TTA has a 6m cargo deck.
The A2 in Sup 7 has 11x16 squares, and checking the length, those are 1.5m squares. So, that's 396m², for a 48 Td bay (672m³), so... 1.69m tall. ouch. I'd be unpleasant, as I am about 186cm tall,,,
The A in Snapshot is 176 squares, 396m², for the A spec in core (I'm using TTB, p.59) is 82 Td cargo, 1148m³, so 2.89m tall...

This is why I build the ship and plans together. Usually in CAD software.
 
I think the first major take away I have from reading this thread is that I need to resist the "Multiples Of 100" as a forced rule.
It was never "a rule" (per se), but it has always been a Default Assumption in almost every version of Traveller published. It even extends down into small craft, such that all small craft "have to be" Multiples Of 10 in their tonnages.

Every single design sequence in CT adhered to these "rules" for design (LBB2, LBB S4, LBB S7, LBB S9, LBB A1, LBB A4, LBB A8, LBB A10, CT AM1-8, etc.). It simply became Accepted Conventional Wisdom™ that all displacement tonnages come in Multiples Of 10 (small craft) or 100 (big craft).

In fact, one of the precious few designs to break with this pattern is (of all things) the Colonial Cruiser (LBB S9, p19) ... weighing in at 1250 tons ... instead of the 1200 tons published in LBB A1.

That ... precedent ... of everything is Multiples Of 10 or 100 then got ingrained into both Players and Referees (and thus into those of us playing Naval Architects) to the point that anything which deviates from that pattern of practice feels WRONG somehow. It feels unnatural. It feels ... perverse ... unclean ... radical, potentially even stupid and/or foolish.



My sense is that it's largely a function of how jump fuel gets calculated.
As soon as you stop working with Multiples Of 100 ... you start getting fractions of a ton in your jump fuel calculations. That then feels "messy" and you wind up with fractional tonnage "leftovers" that are a bit challenging to find a useful purpose for. The smallest discrete unit of something you can install into a design is 0.5 tons for a low berth, after all ... so any 0.49 tons or less remainders feel like wasted space.

LBB A5 came along later and codified collapsible fuel tanks, which can make use of less than 0.5 tons fractional remainders.
CT Beltstrike codified life support reserves consumables, which can make use of less than 0.5 tons fractional remainders.

But until you had those design elements, any tonnage fraction remainder below 0.5 tons was simply Waste Space ... which in turn would be rapidly assumed to be an "insufficiently optimized design" because the waste space existed. You could always throw that leftover fraction of a ton into the integral main fuel tanks (so it would at least be improving endurance), but even then it still felt like you were wasting space/capacity/construction costs/etc. with your design.



So everyone got into the habit of using Multiples Of 10 or 100 every time ... because that's what the published designs did.

LBB2 was perhaps the most at fault for this phenomenon, because of how the "drive performance table" got constructed and RAW dictated how it was supposed to be used. A 200 ton hull used the 200 line to determine performance, but any hulls in the 201-400 ton range would use the 400 ton line to determine performance. So using any of the "intermediate" tonnages was SEVERELY penalized. This created a "don't color outside the lines" feeling to the way the design rules worked for hull sizes and drive performance in a variety of form factors. This is why the design sequence for the Gazelle-class is so self-contradictory ... because under LBB2 it "has to be" a 400 ton starship, but under LBB5 it can be a 300 ton starship (which LBB2 would penalize).

There's also the fact that weapon hardpoint counts are tied to multiples of 100 (drop fractions in big craft, minimum 1 for small craft) helping to "enforce" the notion that big craft only get built in multiples of 100, because those are the breakpoints for being able to add hardpoints to hulls.



The Multiples of 10 or 100 "rule" isn't necessarily A Bad Thing™ per se, since it upholds the Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) principle. It does make a lot of the design sequence ... simpler ... and helps prevent the math from getting "too complicated, too quickly" for various aspects of the design sequence. So in that respect, it makes for decent Training Wheels as a precedent for how people ought to think about design sequencing of small craft and big craft. However, when that mindset hardens into concrete and stops being a Best Practices For Newbs™ and instead turns into THE ONLY WAY THINGS ARE DONE is when you pull out the straight jacket and foot binding in order to CONFORM to the ossified Conventional Wisdom™ which has outlived its usefulness.

Breaking away from the Multiples of 10 or 100 "habit" is not easy ... and it requires motivation to do so. That motivation can ONLY come from mathematical results in the design process which point to those "intermediate" tonnages being advantageous (somehow), which means you need to have a reason other than hardpoints for why you would want to do it.

LBB2 put enough "guardrails" around the intermediate tonnages in the RAW that even reaching for them was quickly dissuaded by min/max gamer mentality. It's only when you can "break out of the table" used by LBB2 and reach for the formula(s) that generated the LBB2 drive performance table in order to determine the performance of intermediate tonnages that a whole new range of possibilities (and opportunities) opens up.

In that respect, my house rules for LBB2.81 Drive Performance Formula plus External Load Towing Capacity rules for starships is the "best" motivation around for choosing intermediate tonnages that do not follow the Multiples of 10 or 100 pattern, because of how the drive performance code parameters compute when you're using formulas (to get at the REAL answers) rather than a table (that shows you only minority fraction of the answers). It opens up the starship design space in ways that are internally consistent with CT, while still "breaking the mold" that has hardened into such brittle rigidity since 1977 regarding HOW (and WHY) things are done the way they've always been done.
Be open to various alternative numbers.
The trick is to find REASONS to choose alternative numbers.
Don't just do alternative numbers for "no reason" ... there has to be something in the design sequence that gets optimized by the use of alternative numbers.

For example.
If you're limited to TL=12 (so model/6 computer is available) and you want to use LBB2.81 drives to make the smallest possible J6 starship as an XBoat replacement and it needs to be 100-199 tons (so it can be single person crew) ... what are your options?
  • Drive-E is code: 1 @ 1000 tons ... but is code: 6 @ 166 tons.
  • Drive-F is code: 1 @ 1200 tons ... but is code: 6 @ 200 tons.
If you can make everything fit into 166 tons, you can "get away with" using a Jump-E drive in order to achieve J6.
If you can't make everything fit into 166 tons, you'll have to bump up to a Jump-F drive in order to achieve J6 ... but you'll still want to stay under 200 tons for reasons of crew manning (only needs 1 pilot). If you can make everything fit into 180 tons, use that as your hull form factor ... it just really depends on how everything "adds up" because there are a large number of items that "cannot be compressed" when working at these displacements (such as bridge, computer and stateroom accommodations).
I know how interesting I found some of the 150 dton scouts, but I admit, I tend to always try and force my ideas into an even 100 dton number. :) (y)
As soon as you "reject the table in favor of formulas" all kinds of interesting things start happening in the 100-199 ton displacement regime while retaining the use of LBB2.81 letter drives. Power Plants become your primary "tonnage expense" because of the 10Pn fuel requirement, which really HURTS in such small form factors when you're trying to have leftover revenue tonnage. It makes for quite the interesting engineering design challenge to balance all of the competing priorities (displacement within the hull, construction cost, revenue potential when in service, etc.). Being able to successfully balance all of those competing priorities in a way that yields a superior product for a variety of use cases feels extremely satisfying (see: build a better mousetrap). :cool:(y)
 
The rules as written clearly say that a 201t->399t ship use the same drive performance as a 400t hull.
Also listed are various tonnage levels for hulls; any tonnage which exceeds a listed level should be read at the next
higher level...


Comparing hull tonnage to drive letter indicates performance of that drive in
that sized hull. Use next larger size hull for intermediate tonnages. Performance is
Gs acceleration for maneuver drives, jump number for jump drives, and power plant
number for power plant.
Hulls increase 100 to 200 and then thereafter in 200t increments until 1000, thereafter in 1000t increments. You can play with intermediate tonnage but there are only a few sweet spots for doing so, the 199t fudge springs immediately to mind.

Drive performance for C drives in a 201 to 400t hull don't change so it doesn't rally matter what you do within that 201 to 400t range with regards to a C drive. If you want a 201 to 400t ship with performance 2 you need D drives.

It is also worth considering the standard hulls, the 400t hull is a bargain still but you don't have much room to maneuver with the drives you can fit in there.

Since you are exploring house ruling LBB:2 here are a few of the ideas I have had over the years (first did the expanded drive table many years ago)

Revisiting the '77 edition rules with the '81 drive table is an interesting exercise, linking power plant number to maneuver drive only and decoupling from jump performance throws up a few more "opportunities" for novel ship designs (and explains the jump 2 maneuver 1 far trader). Adopting a more sensible power plant fuel formula - fuel required = 0.01hull x PPn - is another worth considering.

One final rule fudge also inspired by the hidden progressions etc - the (letter drive)/2, eg the A/2, B/2, C/2 and so on, Rather than invent a formula for the intermediate drive tonnages you can take a higher letter drive and halve it for the ship you want, so for a 300t ship look at the 600t drive letters and halve them
 
Last edited:
LBB2 was perhaps the most at fault for this phenomenon, because of how the "drive performance table" got constructed and RAW dictated how it was supposed to be used. A 200 ton hull used the 200 line to determine performance, but any hulls in the 201-400 ton range would use the 400 ton line to determine performance.
The rules as written clearly say that a 201t->399t ship use the same drive performance as a 400t hull.
Comment unnecessary.
 
And here's what happens if shrinking all the way down to a 248 ton hull that I was analyzing in the previous post.
  • 35 tons for C/C/C drives (code: 2/2/2 @ TL=9)
  • 69.6 tons for fuel (J2@248=49.6, PP2=20)
  • 9 tons for fuel purification plant (TL=9, 200 tons capacity is minimum)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 ton for model/1bis
  • No hardpoints or fire control
  • 112 ton hangar bay
    1. 16 tons for Escort Fighter (TL=9)
    2. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (crew quarters: pilot/navigator, ship's boat/gunner, engineer, steward/medic)
    3. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    4. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    5. 16 tons for Cargo Box
      • 5 tons for 10 low passenger berths OR mail vault for x-mail
      • 6 tons for Vehicle Berth (Speeder, TL=9)
    6. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    7. 16 tons for Cargo Box
  • External towing capacity: 352 tons
    • 3x 16 ton Boxes = J2/2G performance (248+16*3=296 tons)
    • 320 ton big craft = J1/1G performance (248+320*1.1=600 tons)
    • 22x 16 ton Boxes = J1/1G performance (248+16*22=600 tons)
  • 1.4 tons for Cargo Hold(s)
    • 48 ton capacity Collapsible Fuel Tank (0.48 tons when empty, occupies hangar bay/empty cargo boxes when filled)
    • 0.92 tons for Life Support Reserves (138 person/weeks = 11.5 weeks for 4+8=12 persons)
35+69.6+9+20+1+112+1.4 = 248 tons



J2 context (1 ticket)
Revenue tonnage capacity:
  • 8x high passengers
  • 10x low passengers OR 5 tons x-mail
    • 3x Cargo Boxes external (37 tons cargo)
    • 48 tons hangar bay internal (48 tons cargo)
  • 37+48=85 tons cargo capacity
100% manifest ticket revenues: Cr175,000 (low passengers) OR Cr190,000 (x-mail)
6 ports of call per 12 weeks @ 100% manifest ticket revenues: MCr1.05 (low passengers) OR MCr1.14 (x-mail)



J2+2 context (2 tickets)
Revenue tonnage capacity:
  • 8x high passengers
  • 10x low passengers OR 5 tons x-mail
    • 3x Cargo Boxes external (37 tons cargo), then moved internal for second jump
100% manifest ticket revenues: Cr254,000 (low passengers) OR Cr259,000 (x-mail)
4 ports of call per 12 weeks @ 100% manifest ticket revenues: MCr1.016 (low passengers) OR MCr1.036 (x-mail)
To continue the Analysis of Alternatives (AoA) focusing on a study in contrasts ... here's what happens if you decide to use D/D/D (TL=9) or E/E/E (TL=10 standard drives to achieve J3/3G performance.

328 ton hull
  • 55 tons for E/E/E drives (code: 3/3/3 @ 333 tons, TL=10)
  • 129 tons for fuel (J3@328=98.4, PP3=30)
  • 8 tons for fuel purification plant (TL=10, 200 tons capacity)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 2 tons for model/2bis
  • 113 tons for hangar bay
    1. 16 tons for Escort Fighter
    2. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (pilot/navigator, ship's boat/gunner, engineer/engineer, steward/medic)
    3. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    4. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    5. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    6. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    7. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    8. 0.96 tons for 96 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank (occupies hangar bay when filled)
  • External Docking capacity: 672 tons
  • 1 ton for cargo hold(s)
    • 1 ton for life support consumables reserves (150 person/weeks = 12.5 weeks for 4+8=12 persons)
55+129+8+20+2+112+2=328



250 ton hull
  • 45 tons for D/D/D drives (code: 3/3/3 @ 266 tons, TL=9)
  • 105 tons for fuel (J3@250=75, PP3=30)
  • 9 tons for fuel purification plant (TL=9, 200 tons capacity)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 2 tons for model/2bis
  • 64 tons for hangar bay
    1. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (pilot/navigator, ship's boat/gunner, engineer/engineer, steward/medic)
    2. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    3. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    4. 16 tons for Cargo Box
  • External Docking capacity: 550 tons
    • 16 tons for Escort Fighter
  • 1 ton for cargo hold(s)
    • 0.64 tons for 96 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank (occupies hangar bay when filled)
    • 0.36 tons for life support consumables reserves (54 person/weeks = 10.8 weeks for 4+4=8 persons)
    • 4 tons for vehicle berth (Air/raft, TL=9)
45+105+9+20+2+64+5=250



So although it is POSSIBLE to break into the J3 Clipper market with a TL=9 design, the revenue tonnage is rather severely limited inside a 250 ton hull.
  • 4x high passengers
  • 32 tons cargo capacity
Compare and contrast that with a J3 Clipper at TL=10 in a 328 ton hull.
  • 4x high passengers
  • 64 tons cargo cargo capacity
328/(250+16)=1.23308271
328/250=1.312

And yet, the 328 ton TL=10 version can transport 2x the cargo of the 250 ton TL=9 version.

Reason why I'm not doing a 8x high passenger/48 tons cargo mix for the 328 ton TL=10 version is because it might be "dangerous" (in the hijack sense) to try and operate a "small" starship where the passengers outnumber the crew by 2:1 without the addition of security personnel to help passengers "mind their manners" aboard.
 
Further analysis of alternatives ... use D/D/D drives (code: 2/2/2 @ 400 tons, TL=9) in a 352 ton hull.

Wait.
What? 🥺
352 tons? Where did THAT come from? 😵‍💫

Well ... :rolleyes:

D/D/D drives are code: 1 in an 800 ton form factor and code: 2 in a 400 ton form factor (LBB2.81, p22).
However, in order to "buddy tow" another starship that displaces 400 tons, the maximum displacement for this class is 800-(400*1.1)=360 tons.
But in terms of multiples of 16 ton Boxes, 440/16=27.5 ... while 448/16=28.
And 800-448=352. 😅



So here's what happens if you decide to use D/D/D (TL=9) standard drives to achieve J2/2G performance.

352 ton hull
  • 45 tons for D/D/D drives (code: 2/2/2 @ 352 tons, TL=9)
  • 90.4 tons for fuel (J3@352=70.4, PP2=20)
  • 9 tons for fuel purification plant (TL=9, 200 tons capacity)
  • 20 tons for bridge
  • 1 tons for model/1bis
  • 177.6 tons for hangar bay
    1. 16 tons for Escort Fighter
    2. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (pilot/navigator, ship's boat/gunner, engineer/engineer, steward/medic)
    3. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    4. 16 tons for Stateroom Box (4x high passengers)
    5. 16 tons for Cargo Box
      • 2 tons for life support consumables reserves (300 person/weeks = 25 weeks for 4+8=12 persons)
    6. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    7. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    8. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    9. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    10. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    11. 16 tons for Cargo Box
    12. 1.6 tons for 160 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank
  • External Docking capacity: 448 tons
  • 9 tons for cargo hold(s)
    • 4 tons for vehicle berth (air/raft, TL=9)
    • 5 tons for 10 low passenger berths OR mail vault for x-mail
45+90.4+9+20+1+177.6+9=328

352 ton revenue tonnage:
  • 8x high passengers
  • 10x low passengers OR 5 ton mail vault for x-mail
  • 110 tons cargo capacity


Compare that with the 250 ton J3/3G Clipper version, also using D/D/D drives @ TL=9, shown above in the previous post.

250 ton revenue tonnage:
  • 4x high passengers
  • 32 tons cargo
In other words ... same drives, but higher performance ... comes at quite the "cost" to the overall design.

As far as an analysis of alternatives is concerned, the 352 ton J2/2G version will no doubt cost more to construct (and maintain) than the 250 ton J3/3G version (because, more hull metal, for starters) ... but the "lower performing" 352 ton J2/2G version would be a far more capable starship that is able to more consistently generate higher profits for operators, justifying its higher construction expense.



Just another example of how getting complacent when chasing one option (J3/3G performance) can foreclose other options at different performance balance points (J2/2G) that could ultimately be more flexible (and therefore, useful), not to mention more profitable to operate due to the difference in revenue tonnage fraction. :unsure:
 
D/D/D drives are code: 1 in an 800 ton form factor and code: 2 in a 400 ton form factor (LBB2.81, p22).
However, in order to "buddy tow" another starship that displaces 400 tons, the maximum displacement for this class is 800-(400*1.1)=360 tons.
But in terms of multiples of 16 ton Boxes, 440/16=27.5 ... while 448/16=28.
And 800-448=352. 😅
Without reading through 400+ posts ... why are the "boxes" 16 dtons? (Why not 20 dTons or 10 dTons or 36 dTons or any other base value?)
 
Back
Top