{PREVIEW} T20 Cover Inks

[hunter]

Here is a preview of the T20 cover inks.

T20 Cover Art

The cover will likely wrap around to the back where you will see a crashed free trader in the distance.

A patch on the shirts of one of the cover personnel will have "Beowulf" on it...

Hunter

[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 09 November 2001).]

 

[Beholder]

Great, will it be colored with a software or with conventionnal painting?

And will the game ship soon?

Beholder http://rpghost.com/rpgzone

[This message has been edited by Beholder (edited 08 November 2001).]

 

[T. Foster]

No offense meant, but IMO that cover's terrible. It looks like a cheesy superhero/space-opera comic, not SF or "Traveller" at all. I'll admit to being biased against 'comic-book style' art in general, but I've found some merit in all of Steve Bryant's other work (FFE000, T20 GM Screen, TNE stuff). OTOH I really see nothing redeeming here.

What's that gun the human is carrying (especially after those beautiful Brian Gibson guns you posted earlier)? What's with the proportions on the Vargr and the big 'Thing'-looking guy -- it looks like the latter's leaning forward and the former's leaning back, but then what's with the placement of the arms and legs? Why are they all wearing superhero outfits? And if they're fleeing a crashed ship, shouldn't they be hauling some equipment along, or at least have some protective gear? I won't even comment on the giant praying-mantis.

Hopefully this is a very rough draft and a lot will change as it's being painted, 'cause I know I wouldn't buy a book with this as its cover and I suspect I'm not alone.

 

[hunter]

The large guy is a Sydite, minor race human, 7-8' tall, four arms.

The mantis is a Wanderer, minor race alien.

The cover is fairly final awaiting coloring, with a possible change to the gun.

The artist is not Steve, but Jason Millet.

Personally, I like it a lot

Hunter

 

[mjwest]

While not as negative about things as the previous poster (I actually like "comic-book" art), two things just glared at me.

First, they are all male. Traveller has always tried incredibly hard to feature women as much as men in its "feature" art. (I do want to note that this is the first piece you have shown that goes counter to that practice. However, it is your most important piece.)

Second, my personal opinion is that you will be best served by sticking with the major races (human, vargr, aslan, hiver, kkree). Regardless, please don't show any aliens on the cover of the main book unless you are going to describe them inside.

[This message has been edited by mjwest (edited 08 November 2001).]

 

[T. Foster]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
The large guy is a Sydite, minor race human, 7-8' tall, four arms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But is he actually wearing a loincloth? And if so, why?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The cover is fairly final awaiting coloring, with a possible change to the gun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Changing the gun would help a lot. The one now looks like the guns in the T4 rulebook -- i.e. the kind drawn by someone who has no idea what real guns look like.

Still not crazy about the skintight superhero-outfits, but I guess that fits with the 'comic-book style' genre.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The artist is not Steve, but Jason Millet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, my bad. I leaped to the conclusion that Comic-style art + Traveller = Steve Bryant. Does help explain why I like it less than Steve's stuff, though...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Personally, I like it a lot<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I suppose that's what really matters

. I confess I was being melodramatic and this picture won't actually keep me from buying the book, but I do think that such a 'larger than life' cover might give a misleading impression to potential buyers who aren't already familiar with the game/setting -- that is, assuming a typical Traveller adventure still consists of a bunch of retired 40-somethings hanging around bars and struggling to keep up with their mortgage payments.

 

[Reginald]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...

You want me to be brutally honest? That's great for inside of the book, not so great for an outside cover, unless you're doing a superhero "comic book" version of Traveller d20.

Sorry.

------------------
Anyhoo... just some random thoughts

 

[William]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
Hopefully this is a very rough draft and a lot will change as it's being painted, 'cause I know I wouldn't buy a book with this as its cover and I suspect I'm not alone.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'm not quite as vehemant about it, but if I wasn't a grognard and saw this I'd be tempted to laugh at it and move on. If I didn't know better, I'd think it was drawn be a Vargr - perhaps when I see the colored version I'll know for sure

As another poster commented, a female crew member would help alot - perhaps replacing the Aslan? Be brave, make it a Vargr female.

More important - loose the Wanderer (I presume that's the mantis thing.) . If a PC can't play it, it doesn't belong on the cover. Perhaps an Ursa or Virushi instead?


I won't say it's terrible, but it will make my job as a GM harder rather than easier when I want to convince people that it's a serious game and that they want to play it.

William

 

[DrSkull]

de gustibus non disputandum.

I guesss I just can't warm up to the pony-tail guy.

------------------
Dave "Dr. Skull" Nelson

 

[Chris Henry]

I hate to further build my reputation of dissent, but here goes...

The cover would be nice... if it were on a supplement of some kind. Generally, "core" D20 System books tend to pass on cover drawings in favour of some sort of manual/book design. You have a perfect cover centre icon with the sunburst, and designing a futuristic manual image would certainly attract the D&D rulebook purchasers.

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrSkull:
de gustibus non disputandum.

I guesss I just can't warm up to the pony-tail guy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, blame me for him

I like the look of him with it.

Hunter

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Henry:
I hate to further build my reputation of dissent, but here goes...

The cover would be nice... if it were on a supplement of some kind. Generally, "core" D20 System books tend to pass on cover drawings in favour of some sort of manual/book design. You have a perfect cover centre icon with the sunburst, and designing a futuristic manual image would certainly attract the D&D rulebook purchasers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For D&D core books maybe. We purposely are avoiding the 'manual' look.

Hunter

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by William:
Well, I'm not quite as vehemant about it, but if I wasn't a grognard and saw this I'd be tempted to laugh at it and move on. If I didn't know better, I'd think it was drawn be a Vargr - perhaps when I see the colored version I'll know for sure

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again tastes vary. I don't expect everyone to like the cover. Grognards will tend (not always) to dislike it because it looks nothing like any of the old Traveller covers and has a style completely different from previous Trav artwork.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
As another poster commented, a female crew member would help alot - perhaps replacing the Aslan? Be brave, make it a Vargr female.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have been quite specific about including females in all of our material, the character class sketches are about an even mix. The T20 Ref screen also features a female as the main center character.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
More important - loose the Wanderer (I presume that's the mantis thing.) . If a PC can't play it, it doesn't belong on the cover. Perhaps an Ursa or Virushi instead?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats the one. While not a 'PC' race in the core book, the Wanderers are an integral part of the region, and we do plan to detail them as a PC race in a supplement.

I don't necessarily disagree about using just PC races on the cover, at the time the cover was commissioned, the Wanderer's were planned to be detailed but were pulled for now.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I won't say it's terrible, but it will make my job as a GM harder rather than easier when I want to convince people that it's a serious game and that they want to play it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How so? In the same token, would someone please explain to me how it is 'not Traveller' and 'not science fiction' as a previous poster mentioned. I have to say all three of these comments puzzle me.

The cover says a lot to me. It carries on the story of the Free Trader Beowulf, and it also give a picture of a group of adventurers looking to their future, whatever it may be.

That to me speaks volumes of what Traveller is about. If that isn't *serious*, then I'm not sure what is. If the depictions of alien lifeforms, multiple moons orbiting a world, and a crashed space ship don't say 'sci-fi' then someone has been pullin the wool over my eyes for many many years now

YMMV...

I still like it

Hunter
A 35 yr old grognard, playing the game since 1980...

 

[William]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
How so? In the same token, would someone please explain to me how it is 'not Traveller' and 'not science fiction' as a previous poster mentioned. I have to say all three of these comments puzzle me.

The cover says a lot to me. It carries on the story of the Free Trader Beowulf, and it also give a picture of a group of adventurers looking to their future, whatever it may be.

That to me speaks volumes of what Traveller is about. If that isn't *serious*, then I'm not sure what is. If the depictions of alien lifeforms, multiple moons orbiting a world, and a crashed space ship don't say 'sci-fi' then someone has been pullin the wool over my eyes for many many years now

YMMV...

I still like it

Hunter
A 35 yr old grognard, playing the game since 1980...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


38 and since '77. But the problem is not where you are seeing it I fear. What your cover says is "TSR - 1980!!!!"

The Mantis is pure bad '50's SF. Every hideous movie ever made shows in that picture. I doubt anyone can do an insectiod race without that problem - but these guys don't avoid it - they wallow in it.

The Hivers and Droyn and Aslan and K'kree... hell, all of the old aliens can be _alien_. Nothing on this cover can. This cover is pure Modern Western Cultural Stereotype - which is something the old ones avoided. OTOH this is the SF equivalent of a large boobed chick in a chainmail bra...

I'm sorry, as I'm usually not into putting things this way, but I really believe that this cover, if used, will hurt Traveller. IMNSHO, it will drive more people away than it attracts.

If you wish, I would be happy to take this offline.

William

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by William:

38 and since '77. But the problem is not where you are seeing it I fear. What your cover says is "TSR - 1980!!!!"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I disagree, I will point out that those materials sold pretty damn well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
The Mantis is pure bad '50's SF. Every hideous movie ever made shows in that picture. I doubt anyone can do an insectiod race without that problem - but these guys don't avoid it - they wallow in it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the Aslan and Vargr don't wallow in canine and feline characteristics?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
The Hivers and Droyn and Aslan and K'kree... hell, all of the old aliens can be _alien_. Nothing on this cover can.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have two of the very races you mention out of the old aliens, yet you claim that nothing on the cover can be alien. That contradicts your statement that they can be alien.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
This cover is pure Modern Western Cultural Stereotype - which is something the old ones avoided.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The omission of a female in the cover was an oversight I will admit to, and should have been done (and may be corrected). But the lack of a female hardly makes the cover stereotypical of western culture.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
OTOH this is the SF equivalent of a large boobed chick in a chainmail bra...

If that is how you perceive it, obviously nothing I can say will change your mind. As I have said previously, everyone has their own tastes in what they like and dislike.

I'm sorry, as I'm usually not into putting things this way, but I really believe that this cover, if used, will hurt Traveller. IMNSHO, it will drive more people away than it attracts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disgaree with your statement with the following exception. I agree that the cover will turn off a number of current Traveller players. That was assumed when we commissioned it.

I think the biggest problem folks have with this cover is the fact it is a bit 'space-opera'-ish.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
If you wish, I would be happy to take this offline.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need. While I would prefer you liked the piece, it was posted for the purpose of comments from folks like yourself. You have expressed your opinions and done it within the bounds of good form and decorum (for which I thank you!)

Hunter

 

[hunter]

On the Wanderers, if any 'artists' out there want to shoot me a concept sketch of how you think a good insect based alien race might looks, shoot em to me. I am not opposed to coming up with something far more exoticly alien for them.

Hunter

 

[William]

Yes. Thank you, Hunter. "Space Opera" is exactly where we disagree. One thing that Marc and Loren were really bad at - I believe - was how to do space opera. If I want edmund hamilton, I know where to find the {"Star King") - OTOH, Taveller has never been true Space Opera. It played within those sterotypes like you wouldn't have prefered to believe, but it never crossed a certain line...

I'm getting close to another line. Thank you for your kind words. Just, please, don't forget what we can bring to sales...

William

 

[Ron]

Hunter,

Overall, I like the cover style, but there are some technical problems:

Where is the Mantis' left hand? The mantis head is poorly rendered, compared to the rest of the illustration. Finally, I think you right; the mantis is no worse than an alien in lion shape. But why expanding the error? I'm sure you can come up with something acctually different in form to an insect. The movie aliens were all based in wasps (at least in wasps life cycles), but they does not look anything like a wasp.

The four arms guy. I can see that he has four arms, but that is not really clear in the picture.

The Vagr legs appear to be in a wrong proportion. They are also too humanlike. Give the Vagr alien module to the artist, so he can reproduce their unique proportions.

[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 08 November 2001).]

 

[GypsyComet]

Hmm. While a little TOO catlike, the Aslan is still the best part of this piece.

As for the human, you only carry a gun that way if you're afraid it might bite. It's also a silly 50's (or heck 30's!) style SF pistol. If it's a laser put the umbilical on it!

The Vargr and Sydite are horribly wrong perspective-wise, with the Vargr's hand WAY out in front of everything else in the picture, while he's standing intertwined (eeww) with the Sydite. I'd prefer the Sydite not be in quite the "Me Hulk!" pose, either...

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by William:
Yes. Thank you, Hunter. "Space Opera" is exactly where we disagree. One thing that Marc and Loren were really bad at - I believe - was how to do space opera. If I want edmund hamilton, I know where to find the {"Star King") - OTOH, Taveller has never been true Space Opera. It played within those sterotypes like you wouldn't have prefered to believe, but it never crossed a certain line...

I'm getting close to another line. Thank you for your kind words. Just, please, don't forget what we can bring to sales...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that somehow I have angered or offended you. If so I apologize for doing so, that was not my intent at all. You are free to email me offline as you mentioned at grip@RPGRealms.com, or continue to post here as you feel best.

Hunter