Proposal: Hiver (and Solomani) border expansion history

[Malenfant]

So apparently CT Alien Module 6 claims that the Hivers were in Spica around -2204. I think this is a bit silly, especially given the Hive Federation didn't even form til about -2020 and Spica is a LONG way out from Guaran.

I figured that the Hivers moved the Federation capital to Glea in 490 because they'd recently found the Young Worlds there (in Centrax, Lorspane and Drakken sectors). I can't see them just sitting around for a few thousand years with the Young Worlds well inside their border and not doing anything with them.

So here's how I see Hiver expansion. This is all IMO, but based on a combination of known dates and something that makes sense

.

EDIT: I've made a map showing all this, which you can find at:
http://members.shaw.ca/evildrganymede3/spica/borders.jpg

-2400: Pre-K'Kree contact

Around -2400, Hiver territory would encompass most of the Extolian and Ricenden sectors, the coreward halves of the the Centrax and Wrenton sectors, and the spinward parts of the Blaskon and Folgore sectors.


-1800: Human contact

When Hivers first meet humans, the Hive Federation is about 200 years old (this is also about how long it's been since they met the K'Kree and the Lithkind). At this stage, the Hivers would have their territory in the Kaa G!'kuul and K'trekreer sectors, and would have occupied most of the Blaskon sector, explored the Folgore sector, and would have probably occupied the rest of Centrax and Wrenton.


490: The Big Move

Around 490, when they moved the capital to Glea, the Federation would have expanded to encompass a larger area. They'd still have their old territory, but have now roughly reached their 1100 borders in many sectors, including Blaskon, Folgore, Centrax, Wrenton, Phlask, Drakken, and Lorspane. They aren't in Spica, Langere, Nooq, Avereguar, or Kidunal sectors yet (but might have started to explore them), and are making tentative steps into occupying the Porlock sector.


993: The Gateway Era

Around 993 they'd have pretty much reached their 1110 borders. On the trailing side, they've expanded into Nooq and Avereguar sectors (the Hivers haven't met the Inheritors in Nooq yet, but they notice their Sphereworld around 998), and filled out the rest of their current territory in Porlock and started looking into Kidunal sector. And most relevant to us, they would have expanded into Spica and Langere on their spinward flank.

This scenario means that the Hiver didn't actually fomally claim their part of the Spica sector until relatively recently - they've only been there for the past 500 years. I think this would add to the Frontier feel of the sector.

I think this timeline makes sense anyway. I know it might contradict some of the dates in canon (eg for when the Hivers meet the Prt'), but it seems a bit crazy that the Hivers would have expanded as far out to Spica 200 years before the Federation even formed.

Thoughts?

 

[far-trader]

Given the later detailing of the Hivers and such (which I don't have access to anymore) I think that sounds reasonable. Even better I agree it makes for a better frontier setting.

 

[Malenfant]

OK, I've made a map from scratch based on the one in GT AR3, showing what I'm thinking here about the evolution of the Hiver borders (so is this "paleoastrogeography"?!).

The map can be found here:
http://members.shaw.ca/evildrganymede3/spica/borders.jpg


Tryylin is the Ithklur homeworld, Loza'tch is the Za'tachk homeworld, and presumably Ofilaq is the Gurvin homeworld (it doesn't appear to be mentioned by name in GT AR3). I dunno where the Lithkind homeworld (Izyme) is, but presumably it's in Lithkind space

.

I figured the 993 border would be the same as it is in 1120 because the Solomani Sphere butts directly onto the Hiver border. When the Autonomous Region was declared (being defined as a 50 pc radius of Terra) the trailing border must have been defined by the Hivers already (otherwise it wouldn't follow it, right?).

Obviously, this implies that there is no gap in the border in 993 (and that there never has been since the Autonomous Region was declared in 704).

GT AR3 says that the solomani/hiver border is NOT a friendly one, but conflict is low level (mostly cross-frontier pirate raids originating from Solomani space). That's fairly interesting... I'm interpreting this to mean that when the Autonomous Region was declared, some elements of the Solomani wanted to grab the worlds that the Hivers had already claimed that would otherwise have been within the Solomani Sphere's volume. The Hivers of course didn't want to relinquish their worlds, but when rapidly became obvious that the Sollies couldn't just go in and take them, so things settled down to low level conflict.

OK, that's enough from me for a while. I'll let everyone digest all this stuff

 

[Malenfant]

I've now added the Solomani states... the sizes of the Rim States are taken from Rim of Fire (pg 53).

I'm guessing that before the Confederation was established, there wasn't a single unified Solomani government in the region rimward of the Imperium. Instead, there were some Rim States and isolated worlds (I've shown the five Rim States mentioned by name here).

There are independent states in the Alpha Crucis sector, but I dunno if there's any canon for that sector telling us where they are so I've not shown them here yet. So if anyone knows anything about that sector, then please spill the beans!

There's also a bunch of client states coming and going in the space between the Hive Federation and Imperium, but the layout of these seem to be different between CT and GT AR3. In fact, the CT Charted Space map shows a big client state in the Spica sector, but the GT AR3 map doesn't show this and it has the Ithklur Client state further to trailing along the border - so I dunno what's going on there...

 

[mike wightman]

Which known space CT map?

The one in the middle of Library Data doesn't show any client states in Spica...

As for Alpha Crusis, there are some states mentioned in DGP's Solomani and Aslan. Do you want details on those?

 

[mike wightman]

Oh, and Mal, very nice map

 

[mike wightman]

I still think the Hivers moved into Spica and Langere during the long night as a way of maintaining contact with the solomani (or, more likely, to keep an eyestalk on what they were up to ). Mainly because Spica and Langere are not mentioned as young world sectors...

490 to 990 is not a lot of time to develop a significant presence in six sectors, I would argue that the move in 490 was a way of "filling in behind" the salient that Spica and Langere had become.

 

[Malenfant]

Thanks - it took all day to make it

(though as an aside, I do have a blank multisector map now, at least).

The 1105 Charted Space map from the front of the CT Book Reprints shows half of a big state in Spica, as well as another small one.

Interestingly enough the Charted Space map on page 6-7 of the GT Corebook doesn't show this. (then again it also doesn't show the Ithklur state either).

It looks like the GT map is based on the map in the middle of the Library Data book, it's the same thing. Presumably that's means that this is the correct map to use then (it does say that the map at the front of the reprints was how Charted Space was originally envisioned), so never mind

.

I think if the Alpha Crucis stuff is in a DGP then it's out of bounds...

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
[QB] I still think the Hivers moved into Spica and Langere during the long night as a way of maintaining contact with the solomani (or, more likely, to keep an eyestalk on what they were up to ). Mainly because Spica and Langere are not mentioned as young world sectors...

They might have been individually exploring and keeping an eye on things there, but I don't think the borders of the Hive Federation itself moved into the region til much later.

Spica and Langere aren't mentioned as Young World sectors because they don't have Young Worlds in them

. Apparently the unusually high proportion of worlds with primitive races are in the Centrax, Lorspan and Drakken sectors. (not to say that Spica and Langere don't have such worlds too, they just have a more normal amount of races).

490 to 990 is not a lot of time to develop a significant presence in six sectors, I would argue that the move in 490 was a way of "filling in behind" the salient that Spica and Langere had become.

As I figure it,the Hivers had expanded into Phlask and Drakken by 490 and had a feel for the full scale of the "Young Worlds" region. That would have been why they moved the capital to Glea (so they could keep an eye on them and co-ordinate things better). So at the time, the "salient" would have been the Phlask/Drakken bump.

Still, I can see the prospect of finding more Young Worlds to spinward would be the driving motivation for a big push into Spica and Langere. (unfortunately they didn't find anyway, just the normal amount of races per sector). They'd have to occupy all of that territory before 704 so the Solomani Autonomous Region could butt up against it when it was formed. That would have stopped the Hivers' spinward advance (that and the realisation that they'd determined the full area of the Young Worlds, and they didn't extend into Spica or Langere. But now those sectors are important because it gives the Hivers first-hand experience of the Solomani).

So after 490, the Hivers spent most of their effort expanding into Spica and Langere until 704-ish. Then, thwarted on that front, they pick up the pace to trailing and expanded into the Nooq, Avereguar, Kidunual, Lorspan and Porlock sectors.

 

[Klaus]

yeah nice map!

considering that the Sollie part of Spica is only a parsec deep wouldn't that imply that powerful worlds/polities in Alpha Crucis would have influence or even hegemony in the area? we should think about entities and corps in AC that will have direct impact in Spica.

also, is the non-aligned 'V' coreward of the Sol/Hiv border rift space or unclaimed space?

 

[Malenfant]

The Sollie part of Spica is more than just a parsec deep - it's more like a subsector! (or did you mean that and it was just a slip of the fingers when you were typing?

My feeling from Solomani history is that before the Solomani Autonomous Region was established, the region contained separate polities (kinda like the Vargr Extents are, I guess) with unaligned or uninhabited worlds between them. During the Long Night they'd have been fairly insular, but there's pretty much zero information in the books that I have about what the Rim area was like after the 3I got there. All we know is that the states in the Solomani Rim sector (otehr than the Bootean League) joined the Imperium between +400 and +600, and that everything else stayed outside.

So presumably, any polities in Alpha Crucis would have remained as separate entities til 704, when the SAR was created and everything in the region presumably was consolidated into one government. And then when the Confederation formed later, that just solidified the single government.

So basically, there could have been powerful polities in Alpha Crucis (or small ones less than a subsector across in Spica) affecting the region till about 704, then after that anything that happens there will be down to the SAR government, not the local governments. Though perhaps the polities in Spica would be more independently-minded that the ones nearer to Terra.

Oh, and the non-aligned region of the Spica sector is just non-aligned worlds. There's all sorts of stuff in there.

 

[Klaus]

yeah slip of the brain more like

Thats a bit like what I'd imagined. So there'd be a handful of long established worlds, in various states, and a few more self sufficient worlds or super succesful 3I period settlement, and the rest colonies and mines?

A confederation is actually quite a loose grouping of states and polities, with a central parliament or senate, and some centralised bureaucracies to handle large infrastructure policies. There would of course also be a central military and security service, but individual member states might also have parallel services if they were powerful enough. Most planets would have alot of autonomy, and generally alot of worlds would be only technically members just because they happened slap in the middle of CF space.

So the SAR wouldn't necessarily have a single gov before the founding of the CF, just alot of allied and semi-allied polities with a common enemy. the CF was probably a defensive arrangement that evolved into central government.

The US Confederacy was in large part a defensive arrangement, and the ex-soviet CIS was a confederacy in reverse, with central authority, military gradually splintering.

When was the founding of the Sol CF? Because from 704 til then, as the SAR morphed from something like the EU into a more consolidated polity, will be a fascinating period of mainly political and economic history. This could easily have dramatic bearings on Spica history. A new wave of colonisation, and new disruptions as all the powerful Sol polities jockey for power. It might have bearing too on what the general opinion of the Sol party is in the CF ss, whether its popular or resented.

 

[Klaus]

Are there any human worlds in Hiver space? They wouldn't be Confed, but they might want to be. How does the Hiver Fed operate. Does it just control space or does it control all the planets as well. From what I can gather they're a bit like a cross between DS9's Dominium and Larry Niven's Puppetteers. They might just ignore worlds that aren't interesting, just manipulate from afar.

There may have been human colonies before 500 in Hiver space. Some may join the HF, others just carry on quietly, and some would agitate with the Sollies. Maybe some kind of 'Sudetenland' type dispute; the Sol Party would love that.

 

[Malenfant]

The Confederation was officially founded in 871 (see Solomani timeline thread for details). Between 704 (when the SAR was created) and 871, the Solomani Movement was slowly taking over the running of the region.

There are human worlds in Hiver space - the Ancients dumped some strands of humanity there. However these Hive Federation humans aren't really like other humans - probably because of the Hiver influence. I doubt that there'd be any Solomani colonies in Hiver space though.

 

[Klaus]

what about a Sollie landgrab, taking worlds in the Hiver borderlands that they'd earmarked for later development. After all, with the way jump space works makes a border just symbolic. If you can jump into a system without going thru an 'enemy' system then you've crossed no borders. This way the border worlds could be a little mixed up, giving good reasons fro tensions.

(not wanting to use a ST example, but Fed and Cardie colonists causing mayhem in the Badlands?)

 

[mike wightman]

It's at this point I bring up sleeperships again.
We know from canon that Earth sent out sleeper ships before the invention of jumpdrive. Canon only mentions the ESA mission to Spinward/Coreward that became the Islands.
Why not have other Earth powers at the time launch their own sleeper ships, as a matter of national prestige.
Either the USA, Japan, China, India or some other country with a space industry and the population pressure may launch their own colonization effort

We also know that the Solomani launched sleeper ships to Trailing in -700. We only know of the Hinterworls expeditions, but it is a reasonable assumption that a couple could have been sent to Spica.

 

[Tony Canopus]

Wouldn't they need some reason to send a sleeper? some point of interest? Its a lot of dough to throw down on something with massive blind alley potential...

Also, why not Generational Ships?

Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahn!!!

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
OK, I've made a map from scratch based on the one in GT AR3, showing what I'm thinking here about the evolution of the Hiver borders (so is this "paleoastrogeography"?!).

The map can be found here:
http://members.shaw.ca/evildrganymede3/spica/borders.jpg

<snip>

The map, in general, is pretty cool.

However, it shows the -1800 green border to barely reach into Phlask sector. Also, it shows the 490 blue border right on the Phlask/Spica edge.

The Hivers were already well into Spica and Langere by -2204, and had, apparently, been there for a while at that point. See the map on the inside front cover of CT:Alien Module 6: Solomani.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Tony Canopus:
Wouldn't they need some reason to send a sleeper? some point of interest? Its a lot of dough to throw down on something with massive blind alley potential...

Also, why not Generational Ships?

Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahn!!!

The first lot of sleeper ships I mentioned should already be on the drawing board, according to Trillion Credit Squadron they are/were launched in 2050

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
The map, in general, is pretty cool.

Thank you.

However, it shows the -1800 green border to barely reach into Phlask sector. Also, it shows the 490 blue border right on the Phlask/Spica edge.

The Hivers were already well into Spica and Langere by -2204, and had, apparently, been there for a while at that point. See the map on the inside front cover of CT:Alien Module 6: Solomani. [/QB]

Yes, but them being there in -2204 makes no sense when you look at the rest of their history. The biggest problem is this - why would it take the Hivers 2600 years to figure out that the Young Worlds were worth moving the capital for? They were clearly into manipulating races that they found (see Ithklur) by that time. My proposed solution is to just say that they didn't get there til much later on, nearer to 490. Plus it seems to be a more logical expansion over time to me.