Proposed Ship mission codes

[Condottiere]

Also, interwar naval aviation was a wide area for trialing new ideas and concepts, that treaty limitations either were hindrance or an incentive to innovate.

There's always that gap between what they thought might work back then, and what actually did with hindsight.

Personally, I think it's a deficit to add torpedo tubes to line of battle ships, with hindsight; however, for combat simulation games it tends to work out.

 

[aramis]

Then the US Essex class (CV-2 Lexington and CV-3 Saratoga) were not pure carriers, as they had some 8" anti ship guns...

According wikipedia, the Kutnezov has no ani ship missiles, and it only anti shi parmament are torpedoes.

8" haven't been "main guns for capital ships" since the 19th C, so it's 8" turrets don't disqualify it as a pure carrier. But a single 9" would.

It's all burried in treaties and international maritime law.

 

[Condottiere]

As I understand it, by the time of the Great War, the eleven incher was considered the minimum calibre for a line of battle ship.

The British may be the ones that drove the definition, and limitations, of cruisers based on the Hawkins class with seven and a half inchers that just had come into service into maximum ten kilotonnes.

Armoured cruisers designed for the predreadnought era had nine inchers plus, and had the British been more prescient, they should have based the cruiser definition on those, which would have raised the tonnage limitation to fifteen or sixteen kay tonnes, and probably ten inchers, rather than an overgrown light cruiser.

 

[tjoneslo]

So Rob and were pitching ideas back and forth.

The driving force behind creating (yet another) classification scheme is the corpus of 2000+ existing ships in the wiki. We have ships across 40 years, a dozen different design system, and at least three classification schemes. So finding a way to classify then to allow finding ship of a specific type and analysis of the different designs.

The size of the project lead to the idea of having an automated process to assign categories, which in turn tells us that we need to have a classification scheme based upon the design elements, rather than relying on the designer assigned category.

Commercial - Defined by the use of cargo or passenger space (staterooms and Low Berths). Lower TL than the empire maximum, and uses cheaper components.

Trader - Small ships (100-500 tons). J1 or J2. Mixed mode of passengers/cargo. Streamlined and Fuel processors for independent

Resource - Various sizes. J1 to J3. Has additional (unspecified) equipment for processing (Fuel or Ore processor).

Merchant - Medium size (500-1500 tons). J2 or J3. Specialized to passenger or cargo.

Transport - Large size (1500+ Tons). J3 or J4. Specialized to passenger or cargo. Include bulk cargo (like fuel)

Military - Defined by the use of armor, weapons, and screens. Built at or above empire maximum TL, expense is not spared. Use of Screens (NucDampers, Meson Screens) is a definite military ship. Use of quad turrets, Barbette, or Bay weapons is also military.

Fleet - Largest possible combat ships. Spinal mount and bay weapons to maximum effectiveness. Heavy armor and screens. J-3 to J-5, G-max.

Independent - Medium combat (1500+ tons). Bay weapons or heavy turret weapons. Heavy armor and screens. J-3 to J-5. G-max.

Support - Smallest combat ships (100-1500 tons). Maximum turret weapons including heavy turrets or barrette, Armor and screens possible, J0 to J3. High acceleration.

Auxiliary - A general category covering all thing military but not in the above. Of any size. May not be armed. J2 to J4. Secondary equipment indicates support for military operations: Ship troops, vehicle carriers, etc.

Private - Defined by their auxiliary equipment. Not primarily a cargo/passenger carrier nor armed for war. Can be of any size, and any Jump capability.

S - Scout - Sensors, Science equipment, computer power. Includes courier services (information
transport).

Private - The final general category. Ships not fitting into any other category.

 

[McPerth]

The size of the project lead to the idea of having an automated process to assign categories, which in turn tells us that we need to have a classification scheme based upon the design elements, rather than relying on the designer assigned category. (...)

I'd suggest to take jump number out of this definitions, even if only because the TL may limit it at early stellar ages (e.g. according your definitions, a fleet ship should have j-3 to j-5. This would exclude any Vilani ship i nthe Interstellar Wars, as they had only j-2 capacity).

 

[whulorigan]

...

Private - Defined by their auxiliary equipment. Not primarily a cargo/passenger carrier nor armed for war. Can be of any size, and any Jump capability.
...
Private - The final general category. Ships not fitting into any other category.

You have "Private" listed twice.

 

[whulorigan]

Those all look like very good general classification categories to me. I'll see if I can think of anything that needs to be added or better defined.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Commercial - Defined by the use of cargo or passenger space (staterooms and Low Berths). Lower TL than the empire maximum, and uses cheaper components.

Too restrictive, commercial ships can easily be TL-15, e.g. to use Z-drives or cheaper power plants. TTA, p140: Hercules-class.

Trader - Small ships (100-500 tons). J1 or J2. Mixed mode of passengers/cargo. Streamlined and Fuel processors for independent

So, not a Free Trader or Subbie?

Resource - Various sizes. J1 to J3. Has additional (unspecified) equipment for processing (Fuel or Ore processor).
Merchant - Medium size (500-1500 tons). J2 or J3. Specialized to passenger or cargo.
Transport - Large size (1500+ Tons). J3 or J4. Specialized to passenger or cargo. Include bulk cargo (like fuel)

So where does the Hercules-class fit? 5000 Dt J-1 freighter. Or the TI Frontier Transport (2 kDt, J-2, TTB p139)? Or the TJ variant (2 kDt, J-6, 250 Dt cargo)?

Military - Defined by the use of armor, weapons, and screens. Built at or above empire maximum TL, expense is not spared. Use of Screens (NucDampers, Meson Screens) is a definite military ship. Use of quad turrets, Barbette, or Bay weapons is also military.

Too restrictive, excludes the Gazelle, AHL, or any non-current-Imperial design.
Empty bays are an excellent way of allocating flexible space in CT (MT?), it can be used to carry cargo or small craft as needed.

Fleet - Largest possible combat ships. Spinal mount and bay weapons to maximum effectiveness. Heavy armor and screens. J-3 to J-5, G-max.

So excludes most canonical cruiser designs?
So excludes Monitors, any MT warships, any TNE warships, etc?


Where does the TL-12 15 kDt J-2 missile rock (e.g. Eurisko) fit?



Size is not a reliable indicator of anything.
TL is not a reliable indicator of anything.
Jump performance is not a reliable indicator of anything.
Acceleration is not a reliable indicator of anything.

We can probably separate commercial and naval designs by looking at cargo&passenger space as a percentage of the payload (space remaining after drives and fuel), but that is dependent on design system...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Where does the Cockroach-class naval auxiliary fit?

1800 Dt, Z-drives, can operate at J-4 with drop tanks or J-6 without.
Light armour, a potentially open bay, up to 1200 Dt cargo.

Can operate as a transport, a courier, or a light patrol craft if armed.

QT-A666662-400000-00000-0        MCr 668       1 800 Dton    Ag=5
QT-C644462-400000-00000-0        MCr 668       3 000 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=19
batteries                                           TL=15
     Low=1 Cargo=1100 Fuel=60 EP=108 Agility=3 DropT=1200

Single Occupancy                                  1 100       831
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 800        
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      144
Scoops              Streamlined                                 2
Armour              4                  4             90        63
                                                               
Drop Tanks          1 200 Dton                                  1
Total tonnage       3 000 Dton                                  
                                                               
Jump Drive          Z                  4    1       125       240
Manoeuvre D         Z                  4    1        47        96
Power Plant         Z                  4    1        73       192
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4        60        
Purifier                                    1        19         0
                                                               
Bridge                                      1        36         9
Computer            m/6                6    1         7        55
                                                               
Staterooms                                 25       100        13
Low Berths          Emergency               1         1         0
                                                               
Cargo                                             1 100        
Collapsible Tanks   1 200 Dton              1        12         1
                                                               
Bay                 Empty, 100 t            1       100         1
Empty hardpoint                             4         4        
                                                               
Gig                 20 Dton                 1        26        15
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 831,45           Sum:     1 100       831
Class Cost          MCr 171,45          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 668,16                                  
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    10
Passengers            Mid     0          19       Engineers     3
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     6
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

I can toss in a light screen and configure it with some random weapons, to confuse the classification system:

QT-A666662-440400-45003-0        MCr 685       1 800 Dton    Ag=3
QT-C644462-440400-45003-0        MCr 685       3 000 Dton
bearing     1     11  1                           Crew=32
batteries   1     11  1                             TL=15
     Low=4 Cargo=1100 Fuel=60 EP=108 Agility=1 DropT=1200

Dual Occupancy                                    1 100       857
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 800         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      144
Scoops              Streamlined                                 2
Armour              4                  4             90        63
                                                                
Drop Tanks          1 200 Dton                                  1
Total tonnage       3 000 Dton                                   
                                                                
Jump Drive          Z                  4    1       125       240
Manoeuvre D         Z                  4    1        47        96
Power Plant         Z                  4    1        73       192
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4        60         
Purifier                                    1        19         0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1        36         9
Computer            m/6                6    1         7        55
                                                                
Staterooms                                 29       116        15
Low Berths                                  4         2         0
                                                                
Cargo                                             1 100         
Collapsible Tanks   1 200 Dton              1        12         1
                                                                
Bay                 Empty, 100 t            1       100         1
Triple Turret       Missile            3    1         1         2
Triple Turret       Beam               4    1         1         3
Single Turret       Fusion             5    1         2         2
Triple Turret       Sand               4    1         1         1
                                                                
Nuclear Damper                         4    1         8        30
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 856,50           Sum:     1 100       857
Class Cost          MCr 179,87          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 685,20                                   
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    10
Passengers            Mid     0          32       Engineers     3
                      Low     0                     Gunners    13
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     6
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

 

[Condottiere]

Let me have a crack at this.

1. Commercial, private, and governmental, are states of ownership.

2. Military ships are easy to categorize, by capability, purpose, and mission.

3. Container Ships - As the name suggests, a vessel structured specifically to hold huge quantities of cargo compacted in different types of containers is referred to as a container vessel (ship). The process of sending cargo in special containers is known as containerization.

4. Bulk Carrier Ships - Bulk carriers are a type of ship which transports cargoes (generally dry cargo) in bulk quantities. The cargo transported in such ships is loose cargo, i.e. without any specific packaging and generally contains items like food grains, ores and coals and even cement.

5. Tanker Ships - Tanker ships are specialized vessels for carrying a large amount of liquid cargo. Tankers are further sub-divided into different types based on the cargo they carry.

6. Mining Ships

7. Factory Ships

8. Construction Ships

9. Fishing Ships

A. Passenger Ships - Passenger ships, as the name suggests, are mainly used for transiting passengers.

B. Specialty Ships

 

[kilemall]

I’m not feeling the use case for Independent or Auxiliary and Support is sketchy.

I would think Support for anything logistical whether military or no, and Transport for anything troop related.

I see a big gaping hole for Exploration.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Now populate the empty bay, and use a smaller drop tank and some interior demountable tanks:

QT-A666662-470400-55009-0        MCr 703       1 800 Dton    Ag=3
QT-B666662-470400-55009-0        MCr 703       2 000 Dton
bearing     1     11  1                           Crew=33
batteries   1     11  1                             TL=15
     Low=4 Cargo=101 Fuel=1060 EP=108 Agility=2 DropT=200

Dual Occupancy                                      101       879
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 800        
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      144
Scoops              Streamlined                                 2
Armour              4                  4             90        63
                                                               
Drop Tanks          200 Dton                                    0
Total tonnage       2 000 Dton                                  
                                                               
Jump Drive          Z                  6    1       125       240
Manoeuvre D         Z                  6    1        47        96
Power Plant         Z                  6    1        73       192
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-6, 4 weeks            6        60        
Purifier                                    1        19         0
                                                               
Bridge                                      1        36         9
Computer            m/6                6    1         7        55
                                                               
Staterooms                                 28       112        14
Low Berths                                  4         2         0
                                                               
Cargo                                               101        
Demountable Tanks   J-6                     1     1 000         1
Collapsible Tanks   1 200 Dton              1        12         1
                                                               
Bay                 Missile, 100 t     9    1       100        21
Triple Turret 2/bat Beam               5    1         2         6    2 turrets organised into 1 battery.
Single Turret       Fusion             5    1         2         2
Triple Turret 4/bat Sand               7    1         4         3    4 mounts organised into 1 battery.
                                                               
Nuclear Damper                         4    1         8        30
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 879,00           Sum:       101       879
Class Cost          MCr 184,59          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 703,20                                  
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    10
Passengers            Mid     0          33       Engineers     3
                      Low     0                     Gunners    14
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     6
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

Same ship, hopefully the same classification?

 

[Spinward Flow]

1. Commercial, private, and governmental, are states of ownership.

Agreed.
The primary purpose of such ships is the generation of profits.
The only finer distinction to be made is who is the owning party ... an individual person, a corporation (all the way up to megacorporation) or a subsidized (government) ownership arrangement.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Transport for anything troop related.

I would disagree on this interpretation.
Yes, there are Troop Transports ... but there are also Cargo Transports.
I would argue that container ships and barges ought to also be classified as Transports.
Technically speaking, a troop transport can be any ship with a large passenger capacity ... like the QE II in the Falklands War in 1982.

I see a big gaping hole for Exploration.

Exploration is a subset of Scout, I would think, in the Traveller context.

 

[whulorigan]

Exploration is a subset of Scout, I would think, in the Traveller context.

In that case I would suggest that "Scout" in the above table be changed to something like "Exploration/Research", with Scout, Survey, Lab (etc) as subcategories/types.

 

[Condottiere]

Transport is what ships do.

How we utilize that descriptor tends to be for equipment, life stock, people; not to say you couldn't use it for bulk goods, though it feels like for something loose, yet contained.

And then you have carrier.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What's the classification of this TNE Free Trader-like ship:
200 Dt, J-1, 1 G, 6 passengers, 91 Dt cargo, minimal armour (10), MCr 62.5:

Spoiler: Spreadsheet

What's the classification of this Free Trader-like ship:
200 Dt, J-1, 1 G, 6 passengers, 88 Dt cargo, decent armour (50), MCr 62.9:

Spoiler: Spreadsheet

 

[Condottiere]

Freighter is likely a commercial vessel that is mostly devoted to cargo, on likely protected commercial routes; likely a minimum tonnage, but no maximum one.

Merchantmen have been, maybe informally, described as small, medium and large; probably have better passenger facilities than freighters.

Trader could imply a ship that's willing to sail into more dangerous waters, and be involved in more speculative goods.

 

[tjoneslo]

6. Mining Ships

7. Factory Ships

8. Construction Ships

9. Fishing Ships

B. Specialty Ships

So how exactly are these determined? That is, given a ship design what determines which of these categories should be applied?

 

[tjoneslo]

What's the classification of this TNE Free Trader-like ship:
200 Dt, J-1, 1 G, 6 passengers, 91 Dt cargo, minimal armour (10), MCr 62.5:


What's the classification of this Free Trader-like ship:
200 Dt, J-1, 1 G, 6 passengers, 88 Dt cargo, decent armour (50), MCr 62.9:

Both of these fall into the Trader classification.