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Proposed Ship mission codes

10-100 tons => Small craft
100-500 tons => Small Starships
500 - 1500 tons => Medium Starships
1500 - 10k tons => Large Starships
10K+ tons => Warships and megafreighters.
OK, I admit I was wrong; Size is a reliable indicator of ... size.

For Military ships (ships with lots of guns) there are two fairly obvious break points.

One is at 1000 tons where you can, in theory, start mounting Bay weapons. ...

The second is around 10,000 tons where you can start to mount spinal mount weapons. ,,,
That is just CT/MT and just TL-15. Even CT/MT at TL-12 give different results.


MgT2 and T5 does not have any limitations on bays, more than a hardpoint and can fit the bay in the hull. (MgT1 had bays on small craft IIRC...)

MgT2 has magic sizes, related to crit resistance and hit point allocation. E.g. between 2000-3000 Dt is a favoured size; big enough not to crit:ed by turrets, small enough to be difficult to hit with spinals.

T5 does not have any size limitations I can see with my limited experience, especially as you can combine as many weapon mounts from as many ships as you want in a single attack with CommCasters. At a guess many small ships defeats a big ship just because you have more targets to be destroyed.

Neither T5 nor MgT2 has much use for bays, as they don't really do enough damage to justify the size, except perhaps missile bays. So, quite like CT in that regard.

As for CT/MT warships the dominating effect is the to hit size DM. Natural sizes are Small Craft, Up to 2000 Dt (aka Missile Frigates), Up to 20 kDt (aka Riders), Tenders, and above 75 kDt Sitting Ducks (aka Battleships).

For commercial ships I would look at scale advantages with size as most Traveller design systems penalise small ships, especially LBB2, e.g. with fuel, bridge, and crew requirements. Generally scale advantages are mostly played out by about 10000 Dt. At about 10000 Dt or larger it is often nearly as cheap to operate two smaller ships, as one twice as large ship, both alternatives with the same payload.

My commercial scale would be something like:
<100: Small craft.
<300: Tiny ships; Very inefficient, only used for the low unit cost.
<1000: Small ships; Inefficient (might just as well be 2000 Dt or even 2500 Dt [i.e. ACS], if you prefer)
<10000: Ships; Somewhat inefficient (unless Z-drive magic)
≥10000: Large ships; Efficient
≥100k: Very large ships, or "Why bother?"

Subdivided into:
Liner: Mostly passengers.
Trader: Both passengers and cargo (I agree that is a bit weird).
Freighter: Mostly cargo.


For Warships I basically use a modified CT scale:
<100: Small craft: 10 Dt Light Fighter, 30 Dt Medium Fighter, and 50 Dt Heavy Fighter
<1000: Corvette
<3000: Frigate (CT/MT: 1000-1999 Dt, MgT2: 2000-2999 Dt)
>3000: Destroyer, or "Why Bother?"
No jump: Rider
Spinal: Cruiser
Spinal + 100 kDt: Battleship (useful in MgT2 only)

But that is just size, it says very little about what the ship is used for. E.g. a Frigate is often a secondary combatant intended for main battles.

In T5 I expect Corvettes to be very effective in large numbers?
 
With scale advantages I mean this:

A simple TL-12 J-2 HG freighter at various sizes, as the size increases ten times the cost and crew increases by less than ten times and the payload (cargo hold) increases by more than 10 times:

100 Dt
Code:
AT-16222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 46,6         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                           TL=12
                          Cargo=33 Fuel=22 EP=2 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                   33        46,6
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             1          100      
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      8
Scoops              Streamlined                               0,1
                                                           
Jump Drive                             2    1       3        12
Manoeuvre D                            2    1       5         3,5
Power Plant                            2    1       6        18
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      22      
Purifier                                    1       6         0,0
                                                           
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4
                                                           
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                           
Cargo                                              33      
                                                           
Nominal Cost        MCr 46,63            Sum:      33        46,6
Class Cost          MCr  9,79           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 37,30
[/SPOILER]

1000 dt:
Code:
AT-A622221-000000-00000-0        MCr 434       1 000 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=7
batteries                                           TL=12
                       Cargo=583 Fuel=220 EP=20 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                    583       434
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 000    
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                       80
Scoops              Streamlined                                 1
                                                           
Jump Drive                             2    1        30       120
Manoeuvre D                            2    1        50        35
Power Plant                            2    1        60       180
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2       220    
Purifier                                    1         7         0
                                                           
Bridge                                      1        20         5
Computer            m/2                2    1         2         9
                                                           
Staterooms                                  7        28         4
                                                           
Cargo                                               583    
                                                           
Nominal Cost        MCr 433,54           Sum:       583       434
Class Cost          MCr  91,04          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 346,83
[/SPOILER]

10000 Dt:
Code:
AT-K622242-000000-00000-0      MCr 4 267      10 000 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=54
batteries                                           TL=12
                    Cargo=5914 Fuel=2200 EP=200 Agility=1
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                  5 914     4 267
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             K         10 000    
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      800
Scoops              Streamlined                                10
                                                           
Jump Drive                             2    1       300     1 200
Manoeuvre D                            2    1       500       350
Power Plant                            2    1       600     1 800
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2     2 200    
Purifier                                    1        66         0
                                                           
Bridge                                      1       200        50
Computer            m/4                4    1         4        30
                                                           
Staterooms                                 54       216        27
                                                           
Cargo                                             5 914    
                                                           
Nominal Cost        MCr 4 267,35         Sum:     5 914     4 267
Class Cost          MCr   896,14        Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 3 413,88
[/SPOILER]

100 000 Dt:
Code:
AT-R622263-000000-00000-0     MCr 42 404     100 000 Dton
bearing                                          Crew=490
batteries                                           TL=12
                 Cargo=59373 Fuel=22000 EP=2000 Agility=1
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                 59 373    42 404
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             R        100 000    
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                    8 000
Scoops              Streamlined                               100
                                                           
Jump Drive                             2    1     3 000    12 000
Manoeuvre D                            2    1     5 000     3 500
Power Plant                            2    1     6 000    18 000
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2    22 000    
Purifier                                    1       660         4
                                                           
Bridge                                      1     2 000       500
Computer            m/6                6    1         7        55
                                                           
Staterooms                                490     1 960       245
                                                           
Cargo                                            59 373    
                                                           
Nominal Cost        MCr 42 403,52        Sum:    59 373    42 404
Class Cost          MCr  8 904,74       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 33 922,82
[/SPOILER]

1 000 000 Dt:
Code:
AT-Y622264-000000-00000-0    MCr 423 540   1 000 000 Dton
bearing                                        Crew=4 900
batteries                                           TL=12
              Cargo=593793 Fuel=220000 EP=20000 Agility=1
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                593 793   423 540
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             Y      1 000 000         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                   80 000
Scoops              Streamlined                             1 000
                                                                
Jump Drive                             2    1    30 000   120 000
Manoeuvre D                            2    1    50 000    35 000
Power Plant                            2    1    60 000   180 000
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2   220 000         
Purifier                                    1     6 600        35
                                                                
Bridge                                      1    20 000     5 000
Computer            m/6                6    1         7        55
                                                                
Staterooms                               4900    19 600     2 450
                                                                
Cargo                                           593 793         
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 423 540,20       Sum:   593 793   423 540
Class Cost          MCr  88 943,44      Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 338 832,16
[/SPOILER]

The effect is not huge after 1000 Dt, and very small after 10000 Dt.
 
Last edited:
Also in T5 (I really don't know)?

Remember this t hread is in the T5 froum, so expected to be moslty (if not exclusivelly) about T5, woter versions being used as comparisons...
T5 has a Bay (50 tons) and a Large Bay (100 tons). Like MtG2 HG it says it requires at least one hard point to mount one. Meaning, in theory, you can mount a bay (of either size) to a 100 ton or larger ship.

There is a 200t "Main" weapon, which is probably intended to be a Spinal Mount. This also takes one hard point. Rob as mention Marc is working on a Spine Maker, so you can build larger spinal mounts, but that exists only as a theoretical. Given the size limit on the ships due to the build system, not supporting a full suite of canon Spinal Mounts isn't very surprising. So I've skipped describing the T5 design spinal mounts.
 
So where does this number come from?
Prejudice, based on experience. 100-200 Dt ships are very inefficient, we can basically only build the Scout, Free Trader and variants thereof. At 400 Dt we can build more efficient ships (Subbie) or more interesting ships like the Type T, ships we simply can't build at 200 Dt. 300 Dt is a random border between them.

Take the simple TL-12 J-2 ship from above, but in 100, 200, 400 , and 1000 Dt sizes:

100 Dt, MCr 38.9, payload 33 Dt: MCr 1,2 per Dt payload.
Code:
AT-13222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 38,9         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                           TL=12
                          Cargo=33 Fuel=22 EP=2 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                   33        48,6
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             1          100           
Configuration       Cylinder           3                     10 
Scoops              Partial                                   0,1
                                                                
Jump Drive                             2    1       3        12 
Manoeuvre D                            2    1       5         3,5
Power Plant                            2    1       6        18 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      22           
Purifier                                    1       6         0,0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                                
Cargo                                              33           
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 48,63            Sum:      33        48,6
Class Cost          MCr 10,21           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 38,90
[/SPOILER]


200 Dt, MCr 75, payload 89 Dt: MCr 0.8 per Dt payload.
Code:
AT-23222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 75,0         200 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=3
batteries                                           TL=12
                          Cargo=89 Fuel=44 EP=4 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                   89        93,7
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             2          200           
Configuration       Cylinder           3                     20 
Scoops              Partial                                   0,2
                                                                
Jump Drive                             2    1       6        24 
Manoeuvre D                            2    1      10         7 
Power Plant                            2    1      12        36 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      44           
Purifier                                    1       6         0,0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         1 
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  3      12         1,5
                                                                
Cargo                                              89           
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 93,73            Sum:      89        93,7
Class Cost          MCr 19,68           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 74,98
[/SPOILER]


400 Dt, MCr 146, payload 209 Dt: MCr 0.7 per Dt payload.
Code:
AT-43222R1-000000-00000-0        MCr 146         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=5
batteries                                           TL=12
                         Cargo=209 Fuel=88 EP=8 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                  209       182,9
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             4          400           
Configuration       Cylinder           3                     40 
Scoops              Partial                                   0,4
                                                                
Jump Drive                             2    1      12        48 
Manoeuvre D                            2    1      20        14 
Power Plant                            2    1      24        72 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      88           
Purifier                                    1       6         0,0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         2 
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  5      20         2,5
                                                                
Cargo                                             209           
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 182,93           Sum:     209       182,9
Class Cost          MCr  38,42          Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 146,34
[/SPOILER]


1000 Dt, MCr 363, payload 583 Dt: MCr 0.6 per Dt payload.
Code:
AT-A322221-000000-00000-0        MCr 363       1 000 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=7
batteries                                           TL=12
                       Cargo=583 Fuel=220 EP=20 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy                                    583       454
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             A          1 000         
Configuration       Cylinder           3                      100
Scoops              Partial                                     1
                                                                
Jump Drive                             2    1        30       120
Manoeuvre D                            2    1        50        35
Power Plant                            2    1        60       180
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2       220         
Purifier                                    1         7         0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1        20         5
Computer            m/2                2    1         2         9
                                                                
Staterooms                                  7        28         4
                                                                
Cargo                                               583         
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 453,54           Sum:       583       454
Class Cost          MCr  95,24          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 362,83
[/SPOILER]
 
A difference that remains in T5. Take a budget TL-12 J-2 build at 200 Dt vs. 400 Dt:

200 Dt, MCr 37.2, payload 91 Dt: MCr 0.4 per Dt payload.
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
TL-12  F-BU22                        Ergo 2   Comfort 4    Demand 0        Agility -1
       Freighter                     Total:         0          37,2        Stability 0
SYSTEM                                    #       DTON         COST     
                                                                        
Hull                                              200                   
Config: Unstreamlined                                           7       
Structure: Plate Kinetic       AV=12 ( 120 vs Blast, 2400 vs Heat/Beam, 120 vs Pres, 1200 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 1200 vs Heat/Beam  )     
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1                          AV=12 ( 120 vs Blast, 1200 vs H/B, 1200 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Landing Skids Tarmac                                                     
Lifters Installed                                               1       
                                                                        
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=278 m, Flash 7
Gen J Drive C  J-2, 270 EP                1        20          10       
Mod M Drive B  2 G, 220 EP                1         2           4       
Mod P Plant B  P 2, 220 EP                1         4           4       
                                                                        
Fuel, Jump   J-2                                   44                   
Fuel, Power  4 weeks                                3,6                 
Purifier                                  2         2           1       
Scoops                                    1         1           0,1     
Water Intake                              1         1           0,1     
                                                                        
Console, Control Gen C+S=11               3         6           0,4        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Gen C+S=11               4         8           0,3        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer Gen m/1/bis                      1         1           1,5     
                                                                        
Sensors                                                                 
Mod AR Surf Commu-10 +12A+7 PA(           1                     1,5       
Mod AR Surf Radar-11 +13A+7 PA(           1                     1,5        ACS S=6
Mod AR Surf Scope-11 +13A-- P(P           1                     1,5        ACS S=4
                                                                        
Crew:                                     4                             
Stateroom for 1                           3         6           0,3     
Freshers Shared                           2         1           1       
Common Areas                              5         5                   
Life Support:                                                           
Med Console                               1         0,5         0,5     
Life Support, Standard 200%               1         0,6         0,6        180 person-days
Escape Capsules 200%                      1         1           1           10 people
                                                                        
Standard Air Lock                         2                             
                                                                        
Cargo                                              91,3                 
Spare Space                                         2                   
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels     
Crew                                 3                7          12     
Bridge Crew                          2    0                             
    Pilot                                 1           1           1     
    Astrogator                            1           1           0     
    Sensor Ops                            0           0           3     
Engineer                             1    0                             
    Engineer                              1           3           6     
Service Crew                         0    0                             
    Operations                            0           1           2     
Gunner                               0    0                             
    Gunner                                0           1           0
[/SPOILER]

400 Dt, MCr 53.7, payload 227 Dt: MCr 0.24 per Dt payload.
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
TL-12  F-DU22                        Ergo 2   Comfort 4    Demand 0        Agility -1
       Freighter                     Total:         0          53,7        Stability 0
SYSTEM                                    #       DTON         COST     
                                                                        
Hull                                              400                   
Config: Unstreamlined                                          12       
Structure: Plate Kinetic       AV=12 ( 120 vs Blast, 2400 vs Heat/Beam, 120 vs Pres, 1200 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 1200 vs Heat/Beam  )     
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1                          AV=12 ( 120 vs Blast, 1200 vs H/B, 1200 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Landing Skids Tarmac                                                     
Lifters Installed                                               2       
                                                                        
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=351 m, Flash 7
Gen J Drive E  J-2, 450 EP                1        30          15       
Mod M Drive D  2 G, 440 EP                1         3,5         7       
Mod P Plant D  P 2, 440 EP                1         6,5         6,5     
                                                                        
Fuel, Jump   J-2                                   88                   
Fuel, Power  4 weeks                                7,2                 
Purifier                                  2         2           1       
Scoops                                    1         1           0,1     
Water Intake                              1         1           0,1     
                                                                        
Console, Control Gen C+S=11               3         6           0,4        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Gen C+S=11               4         8           0,3        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer Gen m/1/bis                      1         1           1,5     
                                                                        
Sensors                                                                 
Mod AR Surf Commu-10 +12A+7 PA(           1                     1,5       
Mod AR Surf Radar-11 +13A+7 PA(           1                     1,5        ACS S=6
Mod AR Surf Scope-11 +13A-- P(P           1                     1,5        ACS S=4
                                                                        
Crew:                                     4                             
Stateroom for 1                           3         6           0,3     
Freshers Shared                           2         1           1       
Common Areas                              5         5                   
Life Support:                                                           
Med Console                               1         0,5         0,5     
Life Support, Standard 200%               1         0,6         0,6        180 person-days
Escape Capsules 200%                      1         1           1           10 people
                                                                        
Standard Air Lock                         4                             
                                                                        
Cargo                                             227,7                 
Spare Space                                         4                   
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels     
Crew                                 3                7          12     
Bridge Crew                          2    0                             
    Pilot                                 1           1           1     
    Astrogator                            1           1           0     
    Sensor Ops                            0           0           3     
Engineer                             1    0                             
    Engineer                              1           3           6     
Service Crew                         0    0                             
    Operations                            0           1           2     
Gunner                               0    0                             
    Gunner                                0           1           0
[/SPOILER]

It's hardly surprising to note that the 200 Dt ship isn't profitable at Cr1000 per Dt, whereas the 400 Dt ship is quite profitable.
 
Logic says you could stuff a lot more turrets on the hull than just one for every hundred tonnes, or even vertical launch batteries. Or whatever those big ass missile launchers sticking out like porcupine quills on Russian warships are.

However, there's meant to be a game balance, and I have to admit there has to be some form of structural strengthening to permit really big weapon systems to be embedded in the hull, which is where the origin of the word hardpoint comes from.

You couldn't just stick six inchers on armed merchant cruisers anywhere, that was preplanned and subsidized by the Admiralty, prewar.

In theory, in Mongoose, you can embed a hundred tonne bay in a hundred twenty tonne hull, or a five hundred tonne one on a five hundred fifty tonne hull.
 
Or LBB2:

100 Dt, MCr 27, payload 20 Dt: MCr 1.35 per Dt payload.
Code:
AT-12222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 27,0         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                           TL=12
                          Cargo=20 Fuel=40 EP=2 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    20        30 
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      100 Dt          1          100           
Configuration       Cone               2                      3 
Scoops              Streamlined                                 
                                                                
Jump Drive          A                  2    1      10        10 
Manoeuvre D         A                  2    1       1         4 
Power Plant         A                  2    1       4         8 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      40           
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                                
Cargo                                              20           
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 30,00            Sum:      20        30 
Class Cost          MCr  3,30           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 27,00                                   
                                                                
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                     
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 27,00        kCr 5 400          kCr 113              80%
                                                                
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                 
Bank                 Cr 54 000          High            Cr      0
Fuel                 Cr 20 000          Middle          Cr      0
Life Support         Cr  2 000          Low             Cr      0
Salaries             Cr  2 400          Cargo           Cr 16 000
Maintenance          Cr  1 080                                   
Berthing             Cr    100                                   
                                                                
Summa               kCr     80                         kCr     16
                                                                
     Income potential per jump     kCr -64                   
  Yearly yield on down payment     -29,4%
[/SPOILER]

200 Dt, MCr 65.3, payload 82 Dt: MCr 0.8 per Dt payload.
Code:
AT-22222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 65,3         200 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=3
batteries                                           TL=12
                          Cargo=82 Fuel=60 EP=4 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    82        72,5
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             2          200           
Configuration       Cone               2                     22 
Scoops              Streamlined                                 
                                                                
Jump Drive          B                  2    1      15        20 
Manoeuvre D         B                  2    1       3         8 
Power Plant         B                  2    1       7        16 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      60           
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         1 
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  3      12         1,5
                                                                
Cargo                                              82           
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 72,50            Sum:      82        72,5
Class Cost          MCr  7,98           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 65,25                                   
                                                                
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                     
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 65,25       kCr 13 050          kCr 272              80%
                                                                
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                 
Bank                Cr 130 500          High            Cr      0
Fuel                Cr  30 000          Middle          Cr      0
Life Support        Cr   6 000          Low             Cr      0
Salaries            Cr   5 760          Cargo           Cr 64 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 610                                   
Berthing            Cr     200                                   
                                                                
Summa              kCr     175                         kCr     64
                                                                
     Income potential per jump     kCr -111                   
  Yearly yield on down payment     -21,3%
[/SPOILER]


400 Dt, MCr 105, payload 209 Dt: MCr 0.5 per Dt payload.
Code:
AT-42222R1-000000-00000-0        MCr 105         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=5
batteries                                           TL=12
                        Cargo=209 Fuel=100 EP=8 Agility=2
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                   209       116,5
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      400 Dt          4          400           
Configuration       Cone               2                     20 
Scoops              Streamlined                                 

Engineering                                         5           
Jump Drive          D                  2    1      25        40 
Manoeuvre D         D                  2    1       7        16 
Power Plant         D                  2    1      13        32 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2     100           
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         2 
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  5      20         2,5
                                                                
Cargo                                             209           
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 116,50           Sum:     209       116,5
Class Cost          MCr  12,82          Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 104,85                                   
                                                                
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                     
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
       MCr 104,85       kCr 20 970          kCr 437              80%
                                                                
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                 
Bank                Cr 209 700          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr  50 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr  10 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr  10 080          Cargo          Cr 164 000
Maintenance         Cr   4 194                                   
Berthing            Cr     400                                   
                                                                
Summa              kCr     284                        kCr     164
                                                                
     Income potential per jump     kCr -120                   
  Yearly yield on down payment     -14,4%
[/SPOILER]
 
Technically, you can shrink a weapon system to seventy percent of it's original size, and embed it in a correspondingly smaller bay.

It's one way they managed in the previous edition to do that to a small missile bay and design, I think, a seventy tonne missile boat.


I probably misremembered that last detail, but the then rule was one hardpoint, so you can latch on to that whatever requires a hardpoint, in this case, a small bay.
 
Compare something lika a Type T in T5:

400 Dt, MCr 153.5, 51 Dt cargo = free space.
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
TL-12  GF-DA43                       Ergo 2   Comfort 3    Demand 0        Agility 1
       Gunned Freighter              Total:         0         153,5        Stability 2
SYSTEM                                    #       DTON         COST     
                                                                        
Hull                                              400                   
Config: Airframe                                               28       
Structure: Plate Kinetic       AV=24 ( 240 vs Blast, 132 vs Pen, 3600 vs Heat/Beam, 240 vs Pres, 1200 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 1200 vs Heat/Beam  )     
Armour Std Anti-Kinetic                   1                          AV=12 ( 120 vs Blast, 120 vs Pen, 1200 vs H/B,    0 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1        16                AV=12 ( 120 vs Blast,  12 vs Pen, 1200 vs H/B, 1200 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Landing Wheels Wilderness                          12           6       
Wings Incr Perform                                                       
Fins Incr Agility                                                       
Lifters Installed                                               2       
                                                                        
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=351 m, Flash 7
J Drive F      J-3, 600 EP                1        35          35       
Mod M Drive C3  4 G, 990 EP               1         7,5        15       
Imp P Plant H  P 4, 880 EP                1        25          25       
                                                                        
Fuel, Jump   J-3                                  120                   
Fuel, Power  4 weeks                               14,4                 
Purifier                                  2         2           1       
Scoops                                    1         1           0,1     
Water Intake                              1         1           0,1     
                                                                        
Console, Control Mod C+S=12               5        10           0,7        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Mod C+S=12               7        14           0,6        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer Mod m/2/bis                      1         2           3,8     
                                                                        
Sensors                                                                 
Mod AR Surf Commu-10 +12A+7 PA(           1                     1,5       
Mod AR Surf Radar-11 +13A+7 PA(           1                     1,5        ACS S=6
Mod AR Surf Scope-11 +13A-- P(P           1                     1,5        ACS S=4
Mod AR Surf Neutr-12 +14A-- P(G           1                     1,5        ACS S=7
Mod Vd Surf Jamme-10 -0A-12 A(E           1                     1,5       
Mod BR Surf Steal-11 -13A-- P(A           1                     0,8       
                                                                        
Crew:                                     3                             
Stateroom for 2                           4         8           0,4     
Freshers Shared                           3         1,5         1,5     
Common Areas                             15        14,5                 
Barracks:                                 1                             
Squad (5) for 5                           2         8           0,4     
Freshers Shared                           3         1,5         1,5     
Common Areas                              1         0,5                 
Life Support:                                                           
Med Console                               1         0,5         0,5     
Life Support, Standard 200%               4         3,6         3,6        1080 person-days
Escape Capsules 200%                      4         4           4            40 people
                                                                        
Standard Air Lock                         4                             
                                                                        
Cargo                                              51,7                 
Magazine, Sz=5 - Turret Missile          90         1,8                 
                                                                        
Weapons                                                                 
Mod AR T3 Miss-12 +14 H:M                 3         3           6       
Mod D T3 Beam-12 +16 H:3 Def+3            1         0,5         0,8     
Mod D T3 Sand-12 +14 H:3 Def+3            1         0,5         0,6     
Mod D T3 SLM -12 +14 H:1 Def+1            1         0,5         1       
 Mod D T1 Sand-12 +12 H:1 Def+1           1                             
 Mod D T1 Beam-12 +14 H:1 Def+1           1                             
 Mod SR T1 Miss-12 +12 H:M                1                             
                                                                        
Carried Craft                                                           
Hangar Ship's Boat 30 Dt                  1        40           8       
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels     
Crew                                 8               12          23     
Bridge Crew                          4    0                             
    Pilot                                 1           1           2     
    Astrogator                            1           1           0     
    Sensor Ops                            2           2           6     
Engineer                             3    0                             
    Engineer                              2           3           6     
    Maintenance                           1                             
Service Crew                         0    0                             
    Operations                            0           1           2     
Gunner                               1    0                             
    Gunner                                1           3           6     
Flight Crew                          0                1           1     
Troops                              10
[/SPOILER]
 
And at 200 Dt:
200 Dt, MCr 98.4, No free space, 31 Dt overtonnage.
[SPOILER="Spreadsheet"]
Code:
TL-12  GF-BA43                       Ergo 2   Comfort 3    Demand 0        Agility -1
       Gunned Freighter              Total:       -31,4        98,4        Stability 0
SYSTEM                                    #       DTON         COST    
                                                                       
Hull                                              200                  
Config: Airframe                                               15      
Structure: Plate Kinetic       AV=24 ( 240 vs Blast, 132 vs Pen, 3600 vs Heat/Beam, 240 vs Pres, 1200 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )    
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 1200 vs Heat/Beam  )    
Armour Std Anti-Kinetic                   1                          AV=12 ( 120 vs Blast, 120 vs Pen, 1200 vs H/B,    0 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )    
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1         8                AV=12 ( 120 vs Blast,  12 vs Pen, 1200 vs H/B, 1200 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )    
Landing Wheels Wilderness                           6           3      
Wings Incr Perform                                                      
Fins Incr Agility                                                      
Lifters Installed                                               1      
                                                                       
Drop Tanks (95% fuel)                     0                                -31,4  Hull
Total Drive Capacity                    200                                -31,4  Over/undertonnage: Agility -2
                                                                       
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=278 m, Flash 7
J Drive C      J-3, 300 EP                1        20          20      
Mod M Drive B2  4 G, 440 EP               1         4           8      
Imp P Plant D  P 4, 440 EP                1        13          13      
                                                                       
Fuel, Jump   J-3                                   60                  
Fuel, Power  4 weeks                                7,2                
Purifier                                  2         2           1      
Scoops                                    1         1           0,1    
Water Intake                              1         1           0,1    
                                                                       
Console, Control Mod C+S=12               4         8           0,5        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Mod C+S=12               7        14           0,6        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer Mod m/2/bis                      1         2           3,8    
                                                                       
Sensors                                                                
Mod AR Surf Commu-10 +12A+7 PA(           1                     1,5      
Mod AR Surf Radar-11 +13A+7 PA(           1                     1,5        ACS S=6
Mod AR Surf Scope-11 +13A-- P(P           1                     1,5        ACS S=4
Mod AR Surf Neutr-12 +14A-- P(G           1                     1,5        ACS S=7
Mod Vd Surf Jamme-10 -0A-12 A(E           1                     1,5      
Mod BR Surf Steal-11 -13A-- P(A           1                     0,8      
                                                                       
Crew:                                     3                            
Stateroom for 2                           4         8           0,4    
Freshers Shared                           3         1,5         1,5    
Common Areas                             15        14,5                
Barracks:                                 1                            
Squad (5) for 5                           2         8           0,4    
Freshers Shared                           3         1,5         1,5    
Common Areas                              1         0,5                
Life Support:                                                          
Med Console                               1         0,5         0,5    
Life Support, Standard 200%               4         3,6         3,6        1080 person-days
Escape Capsules 200%                      4         4           4            40 people
                                                                       
Standard Air Lock                         2                            
                                                                       
Magazine, Sz=5 - Turret Missile          30         0,6                
                                                                       
Weapons                                                                
Mod AR T3 Miss-12 +14 H:M                 1         1           2      
Mod D T3 Beam-12 +16 H:3 Def+3            1         0,5         0,8    
Mod D T3 Sand-12 +14 H:3 Def+3            1         0,5         0,6    
Mod D T3 SLM -12 +14 H:1 Def+1            1         0,5         1      
 Mod D T1 Sand-12 +12 H:1 Def+1           1                            
 Mod D T1 Beam-12 +14 H:1 Def+1           1                            
 Mod SR T1 Miss-12 +12 H:M                1                            
                                                                       
Carried Craft                                                          
Hangar Ship's Boat 30 Dt                  1        40           8      
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels    
Crew                                 8               11          21    
Bridge Crew                          4    0                            
    Pilot                                 1           1           2    
    Astrogator                            1           1           0    
    Sensor Ops                            2           2           6    
Engineer                             3    0                            
    Engineer                              2           3           6    
    Maintenance                           1                            
Service Crew                         0    0                            
    Operations                            0           1           2    
Gunner                               1    0                            
    Gunner                                1           2           4    
Flight Crew                          0                1           1    
Troops                              10
[/SPOILER]

Basically we can't...
 
Logic says you could stuff a lot more turrets on the hull than just one for every hundred tonnes, or even vertical launch batteries. Or whatever those big ass missile launchers sticking out like porcupine quills on Russian warships are.

However, there's meant to be a game balance, and I have to admit there has to be some form of structural strengthening to permit really big weapon systems to be embedded in the hull, which is where the origin of the word hardpoint comes from.

You couldn't just stick six inchers on armed merchant cruisers anywhere, that was preplanned and subsidized by the Admiralty, prewar.

In theory, in Mongoose, you can embed a hundred tonne bay in a hundred twenty tonne hull, or a five hundred tonne one on a five hundred fifty tonne hull.
I have a whole thing worked out where the hardpoint is really all about the hull structure being wrapped around what it takes to get the power feeds, control lines, missile/sand feed racks, laser exciter tubes and local fire control
 
Which probably isn't far from the truth, considering the wattages involved.

Power cables, however, are flexible; missile racks tend to not be, outside of the fact that you need to embed an ordnance magazine with a no smoking sign.
 
But that is just size, it says very little about what the ship is used for. E.g. a Frigate is often a secondary combatant intended for main battles.
I take your point that sometimes you can substitute size for capabilities, and sometimes capabilities are independent of size.

For the commercial side you would end up with the Trader, Liner, Freighter, plus Resource/Seekers and Explorers/Science, with modifiers for size and specific capabilities like use as military auxiliaries or jump range.

But on the military side you would have sized based Corvette, Frigate, and Destroyer with modifiers for the weapon/screens load. And above the 10k line it would be fleet ships (usually with spinal mounts), and again using modifiers specific missions.

That leaves us with 9 base categories, plus two sets of modifier tables (commercial size focused, Military capabilities focused).
 
Which probably isn't far from the truth, considering the wattages involved.

Power cables, however, are flexible; missile racks tend to not be, outside of the fact that you need to embed an ordnance magazine with a no smoking sign.
It’s having to have cable runs and wrap the hull’s support structure, vs not having the hardpoint initially and thus any retrofitting will involve cutting through beams and possibly bulkheads, weakening them.

In my damage scheme hull hits go towards cutting power, fuel, life support and control lines along with streamlining. So as a result, such major rearranging in a refit by adding hardpoints- weakens the hull’s systems to become vulnerable at a lower threshold.

Same thing if you overload a hull with too many weapons/hardpoints by design. Exhibit A, the Terran Missile Boats from Imperium.


I’m visualizing the lasers as being big exciter tubes embedded in the same form factor as the missile feeds, and the turret is more just the aiming mirrors.
 
Reminds me of considering one shot lasers, using one cubic metre batteries, and/or installing a battery underneath the turret.

Or even a fusion reactor, considering a triple laser turret would consume thirteen power points per combat turn.

It's not so much as adding hardpoints, which should be just strengthening a point in the hull, more rearranging them like conversions from barbette to turret, or vice versa, should cost money.

Actually, stating that a spaceship has hardpoints, should cost money, constructed for, but not with.


Wait, that's firmpoints.

Converting turrets to five hundred tonne large bays should cost money, and vice versa.

Extra money.
 
For the commercial side you would end up with the Trader, Liner, Freighter, plus Resource/Seekers and Explorers/Science, with modifiers for size and specific capabilities like use as military auxiliaries or jump range.

But on the military side you would have sized based Corvette, Frigate, and Destroyer with modifiers for the weapon/screens load. And above the 10k line it would be fleet ships (usually with spinal mounts), and again using modifiers specific missions.

That leaves us with 9 base categories, plus two sets of modifier tables (commercial size focused, Military capabilities focused).
Yes, quite.
 
Using the Tigress as an example, you have a battleship carrier, large enough not to compromise either capability or mission, plus likely secondary ones as a minor assault carrier (with five hundred troops and likely an adjustment in the aerospace group composition), command ship and flagship.
 
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