See that, while when talking about planetary invasions we all use to think on Invasion:Earth, truth is 500 Marines with interface supremacy (given by the fighters) are enough to invade most planets, as most are not high pop hi tech ones...
Proposed Ship mission codes
- Thread starter tjoneslo
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See that, while when talking about planetary invasions we all use to think on Invasion:Earth, truth is 500 Marines with interface supremacy (given by the fighters) are enough to invade most planets, as most are not high pop hi tech ones...
Spinward Flow
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500 troops is enough for a Battalion.
That's enough organic ground support to knock over most non-industrial (Population: 6-) worlds, even before factoring in the tech level differential (TL=15 vs TL=14-). When you get to "bows and arrows against the lightning" levels of tech differential, it gets even more lopsided in favor of the Tigress battalion. And then there's the ortillery factor of a Meson-T being used against ground targets while fighters provide interface superiority as previously mentioned and things can get REALLY UNFAIR™ in an absolute hurry.
I agree.
That's enough organic ground support to knock over most non-industrial (Population: 6-) worlds, even before factoring in the tech level differential (TL=15 vs TL=14-). When you get to "bows and arrows against the lightning" levels of tech differential, it gets even more lopsided in favor of the Tigress battalion. And then there's the ortillery factor of a Meson-T being used against ground targets while fighters provide interface superiority as previously mentioned and things can get REALLY UNFAIR™ in an absolute hurry.
That has been disussed long in other threads, but I don't believe the messon T (nor nukes) is used against ground targets, at least before the Black War in rebellion. There's no such event tald about in all Traveller 3I story (Illelesh rebellio naaside, but even then the population was evacuated from the zone to steriliza).
The goal is capturing, not nuking (if it is, the troops are not used), and the fighters and beams may give enough ortillery and close support...
It should be noted that while the T gun is a fierce beast indeed, the ROF of ship weapons in general is quite different from tactical ground weapons. The ship based weapons have their value to be sure, but when you're talking tactical engagements (with turns measured in 10's of seconds), ship weapons fire with a frequency of 10's of minutes. I wouldn't want to be the city being bombarded by a T gun, but it's not necessarily something that operationally can be used to support any specific tactical engagement.
Sorry for bringuing MT to bear, but it's the only version I own that has rules for it (I guess striker rules are the same for that). On it, the danger space of a MG is factor x 15 m radius , and the zone is converten into a lunar-like environ, with al l vehicles destroyed, all people killed and all buildings collapsed.
As a T rated means rating 27, this means a 405 m radius (so, 810 m diameter, so over 500000 square meters destroyed (over 125 acres, or the equivalent to nearly 100 american football fields. Soccer fields are more variable)
So, it really is. Too much as for close support.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Depends on the ground target.
For absurdly high value targets, I can absolutely believe that Meson-T strikes would be called in by Forward Observers.
That just means that infosec and loyalty to mission/cause is high ... rather than being proof it has never happened in all of recorded history.
If anything, I would argue that meson strikes against ground targets would amount to the equivalent of "small arms fire" during The War of the Ancients ... since they would have had anti-matter, disintegrators and who knows what else kind of technologies to weaponize against each other (resulting in the higher than normal number of asteroid belts in some sectors). Shionthy/Regina has an entire belt of anti-matter asteroids, for example.
My point being that you're not dealing with a case of "if everyone died, then who told the story?" but rather a case of "if a meson gun is fired into the forest, can anyone hear it?" and the lack of news reports about such action(s) suggests that if it does happen word about it doesn't get far.
Just because I don't hear news stories every day about what spy networks are doing on a daily basis is not evidence that there are no spy networks in operation. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Also, consider what the results are on the receiving end ... if you're a reporter (or whatever). The spherical obliteration zone will have a distinctive pattern to it, but it would be something you would need to be trained to recognize (after the fact) rather than something that is obviously recognizable at a glance by the layman. It would make craters/voids that would look suspiciously like other kinds of detonation/impact weapons so it would (I'm thinking) require training to spot the differences (that was a meson gun, not a fusion bay weapon or hypersonic kinetic kill missile, for example). My point being that for a layman unfamiliar with the distinctive specifics, there are opportunities for potential confusion and misinterpretation of evidence that could not conclusively prove that an orbital strike was made by a meson gun exclusively because there are no other possible interpretations of the surviving evidence. It isn't necessarily quite as clear cut when reporting after the fact is my point ... especially if some time has passed since the engagement took place.
Furthermore, have there been any Traveller stories told in settings where meson ortillery in support of ground forces could have been a component of the narrative story being told? I wouldn't expect such things to feature (prominently) in a spy story or a "merchant run gone bad" kind of story, since meson ortillery in support of ground forces is absolutely a military/mercenary story genre.
To be clear, I'm not talking about using a Meson-T in any kind of Danger Close kind of tactical engagement support role.
But if you've got a high value fixed surface installation that you want to ... wreck ... before the troops roll in to mop up whatever survives, then absolutely calling in ortillery fire support from the Meson-T by a Forward Observer would be the way to ... obliterate ... such an obstacle with a minimum of "fuss" for the ground troops. If you can call in "artillery" of that caliber from "over the horizon" for extremely high value targets in a way that isn't Danger Close to friendly forces, I can easily imagine that such an option would be exercised when it is useful to a ground commander.
For Danger Close engagements, there's the battlefield Meson Accelerator detailed in LBB4, p46 and p48-49 at TL=15 that weigh in at 60,000kg, requires a crew of 12, has a range of 50km and an ROF of 2 per combat round(!) for a burst radius of 50 meters per shot. Pretty sure that those would get used in surface warfare engagements in support of ground forces. The ortillery Meson-T would be called in against LARGE "make that go away" fixed ground targets by Forward Observers.
Cue Queen singing We Will Rock You track as a morale booster for the ground troops ... that's optional ...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In the MT Knightfall adventure the PCs are caught up in a meson attack on a starport IIRC.
(and the whole post refered to that, not quoted to save space)
In a universe where starhisp are prowling the space lanes in nearly every planet, it's hard for me to swallow those craters (quite distinctive, as they are described) could be kept secret for long. At least rumors would have been there, and none is featured in any Traveller published book I'm aware about, as there are no reports of planets nuked (despite some references to nukes being used).
Another point: if they have been used previously, why the Black War is seen as different as the ones before?
Frontier Wars? Solomai War?
There are many references to them, and none includes them, nor has a ny published material talk about any su ch craters(barren zones...
I don't know a dime about artillery use, but how effective would a Forward o bserver be from nearly half a kilometer away? See that being closer would be suicide...
I guess it would be hard for something obñliterating nearly half kilometer radius to be called "tactical"...
And of course for all of this, YMMV...
Disclaimer: of course, all of this are before the Black War times.
I also seem to remember it, but it was just before the Black War, and even then the starport was left nearly intact, so, if it really was, it would have been very small ones, A Spinal would have obliterated a large chunk of the Starport, fully inconsistent with the Lucan fleet strategy for the whole attack to the cluster.
Clearly something like the T gun is essentially at the "tactical nuke" level of engagement. The "bright side" (as in VERY bright) of the meson gun is that, as I understand it, the level of residual radiation is low. However, the other environmental effects should not be understated. Specifically, I would think you'd still have enormous dust clouds and, I would think, very high levels of heat at meson impacts.
No, it was more a general statement on the use of the shipboard weapons in a tactical scale.
It's very hard to envision a meson equipped battlefield, the ruin they would cause.
Consider the T gun. It is, indeed, 405m in radius. That is also BELOW GROUND. Subways, bunkers, sewers, plumbing, wires -- all wrecked. Tunnels collapsed, mines destroyed, ground destabilized. Consider hitting the sides of islands with the T gun, disrupting and triggering catastrophic, tsunami causing landslides. There's nothing to suggest that hitting a large granite mountain (like, say, Yosemite's Half Dome) wouldn't turn it in to a pile of gravel. What DOES happen when 20M dTons of water gets "meson-ated"? Just start blasting harbors.
Meson guns are also, apparently, tunable. They don't necessarily have to fire at full power, making then a potentially precision weapon against static targets.
What is not talked about is the prevalence (or not) of meson shields. You would expect these to be everywhere. You'd expect there to be Meson Shield vehicles escorting columns in combat areas. Important facilities being guarded by them.
Because, if you have them available, why would you not use them? Once spotted, targets are a mouse click away from being destroyed. Without warning. From very far away. Just a bright light and everything is gone. They're expensive to field, but cheap to run. No ammo requirements, just power (and power is cheap). Planet scale MGs are not that big. Special bombardment ships with several bay weapons are more than adequate to rain down orbital destruction. The opening salvo of an invasion starts with a bunch of very bright flashes, destroying in detail anything that remotely looks worth targeting. "Recon by fire." Finger of God poking holes in your planet.
It's a war of Forward Observers, equipped with satellites and grav drones.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
VERY MUCH SO.
If you detect it ... you can kill it.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If there was one planet in this galaxy that would have been pumped full of deep meson sites in it's crust, it would have been Terra.
Probably Lunar, as well.
Probably Lunar, as well.
That's why nukes have been the usual weapons to use since they were tested in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, don't they?
And political reasons are what preclude iot, in both cases.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Nukes have lingering problems (radiation) ... if you don't have Nuclear Dampeners,
However, at TL=12+ Nuclear Dampeners become available ... meaning that as far as nukes are concerned, you canhave nuke your cake and eat it too.
However, at TL=12+ Nuclear Dampeners become available ... meaning that as far as nukes are concerned, you can
If nukes were "clean", they'd be used. One reason that modern nuclear weapons have continually reduced in yield is because their precision has increased. With lower CEP, they need a lower yield to hit hardened targets. If you can pack a nuclear punch in a powerful, precision, clean effect, it would more likely be used.
We're getting farther away from just raining random things from the sky hoping they'll hit things. Precision munitions solve many problems. Precision munitions that are cheap to deploy solve more problems.
We're getting farther away from just raining random things from the sky hoping they'll hit things. Precision munitions solve many problems. Precision munitions that are cheap to deploy solve more problems.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
At some point, the stockpiles run out.
Which is why the other option is a big railgun.
Which is why the other option is a big railgun.
The main reason nukes (not even the smallest) have not been used is political, be it for international treaties or fear of retaliation (that helps keep with the international treaties, BTW).
I'd expect some similar restrictions in TU, where a single cruiser jumping behind lines (from gas giant to gas giant, or refuelling in asteroids and never closing large military threats) could create true havoc on many a planet with a MG spinal.
Commerce raiding is seen as OK, such genocides are not.
If you don't neither will I. That's the main reason it's not done.
I'd expect some similar restrictions in TU, where a single cruiser jumping behind lines (from gas giant to gas giant, or refuelling in asteroids and never closing large military threats) could create true havoc on many a planet with a MG spinal.
Commerce raiding is seen as OK, such genocides are not.
If you don't neither will I. That's the main reason it's not done.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
CT Striker, Book 2, p44 ... Rule 78: The Imperial Rules of War
Fusion Guns contain plasma until nuclear fusion begins and release the plasma while it is undergoing nuclear fusion.
Key words being ... nuclear fusion.
Granted, it's not a "nuclear bomb" type explosive (of the missile variety), but it is kind of a high tech "flamethrower version" of a nuclear (fusion) reaction that can keep being fired repeatedly (unlike nuclear missiles, sooo....).
Particle Accelerators are pretty literally "nuclear" weapons ... firing either neutrons or neutral hydrogen streams. They may not be quite as "flashy" as a nuclear missile, but what makes them "go" as weapons is pretty explicitly nuclear in nature.
Meson Guns ... yeah, I'm going to just stop right there, because meson guns are very obviously nuclear weapons and would therefore pretty obviously fall under the same restrictions as nuclear (missile) weapons.
So if you take that slightly more expansive view of things, then suddenly something becomes a bit clearer with regards to starship energy weapons (Plasma and Fusion Guns).
Plasma Guns can be civilian/paramilitary tech ... while Fusion Guns are restricted military tech.
This then gives Plasma Gun a reason to "exist" alongside Fusion Guns (whether man portable, vehicle or ship mounted).
Looked at from that angle, rather than from the Munchkin™ "whatever gives me the most bang per ton" point of view of LBB5.80 weapon code factors, there is both room as well as reason/rationale for Plasma Guns to exist as ship weapons in a universe that also has Fusion Guns in it. Such a distinction adds another opportunity for "universe flavor" in terms of what different options mean to starship, non-starship and small craft design considerations. That kind of additional texture then adds value (and adventure hook opportunities) for Referees to pick up (and Players to get caught on).
Although I can't find (or remember) any such corollary being mentioned anywhere in CT, this reference point makes me wonder if Fusion Guns and Particle Accelerators (and of course, Meson Guns) would all "qualify" under a broad scope as being ... nuclear weapons.
Fusion Guns contain plasma until nuclear fusion begins and release the plasma while it is undergoing nuclear fusion.
Key words being ... nuclear fusion.
Granted, it's not a "nuclear bomb" type explosive (of the missile variety), but it is kind of a high tech "flamethrower version" of a nuclear (fusion) reaction that can keep being fired repeatedly (unlike nuclear missiles, sooo....).
Particle Accelerators are pretty literally "nuclear" weapons ... firing either neutrons or neutral hydrogen streams. They may not be quite as "flashy" as a nuclear missile, but what makes them "go" as weapons is pretty explicitly nuclear in nature.
Meson Guns ... yeah, I'm going to just stop right there, because meson guns are very obviously nuclear weapons and would therefore pretty obviously fall under the same restrictions as nuclear (missile) weapons.
So if you take that slightly more expansive view of things, then suddenly something becomes a bit clearer with regards to starship energy weapons (Plasma and Fusion Guns).
Plasma Guns can be civilian/paramilitary tech ... while Fusion Guns are restricted military tech.
This then gives Plasma Gun a reason to "exist" alongside Fusion Guns (whether man portable, vehicle or ship mounted).
Looked at from that angle, rather than from the Munchkin™ "whatever gives me the most bang per ton" point of view of LBB5.80 weapon code factors, there is both room as well as reason/rationale for Plasma Guns to exist as ship weapons in a universe that also has Fusion Guns in it. Such a distinction adds another opportunity for "universe flavor" in terms of what different options mean to starship, non-starship and small craft design considerations. That kind of additional texture then adds value (and adventure hook opportunities) for Referees to pick up (and Players to get caught on).
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In the Honorverse, once you have orbital supremacy, the other side is supposed to give up.
Everything not on the planet, and presumably atmosphere, is fair game.
Everything not on the planet, and presumably atmosphere, is fair game.
