Proto Regina

[san*klass]

Inspired by the Proto Traveller threads and blogs both here and elsewhere across the net, I have decided to try to apply Proto principles to the Regina subsector.
I am assuming that Regina is a recently settled true frontier subsector, just two subsectors Spinward of Corridor, with a vastly reduced Core beyond. Jewel is a true "no mans land" between the Imps and Zhos, so Regina is the frontline holding the line before the warzone.
Working from the below assumptions, I have written a simple Excel spreadsheet and downloaded the UPP's. The formulas just do the rest!
I am assuming a small Pop, lower end of interstellar tech, small ship, low authority wild frontier. As such I assume lower pop, lower and less high tech, but enough for a mainworld to support its people given atmospheric and hydrographic difficulties. So no TL4 Asteroid belts here! My spreadsheet formulas lower Pop in relation to challenging Ats and both 0&A Hydro. They slightly increase lower end Tech for the same environmental issues and Starport is based on Pop.
Some systems are now at zero Pop (well officially anyway!) and E&X Starports are more common.
I did need to manually adjust a few anomalies, but all in all a wilder, simpler, more primitive frontier subsector has resulted.
On to Trade routes next!

 

[whartung]

Inspired by the Proto Traveller threads and blogs both here and elsewhere across the net, I have decided to try to apply Proto principles to the Regina subsector.

What precisely does "apply Proto principles" mean?

Is this something like applying the Hard Times / post virus changes?

 

[san*klass]

What precisely does "apply Proto principles" mean?

Is this something like applying the Hard Times / post virus changes?

Apologies for being imprecise, I was refering to the principles underpinning Proto Traveller.
If you have never heard of that then a Google search or search on COTI will enlighten you.

 

[Whipsnade]

What precisely does "apply Proto principles" mean?

He may be referring to what's called Proto-Traveller.

Wil often describes it as "4-4-4 Traveller": First four books, first four adventures, and first four supplements.

Of course that raises to the questions about whether those first four books are the three books comprising CT77 or CT81!

 

[ffilz]

He may be referring to what's called Proto-Traveller.

Wil often describes it as "4-4-4 Traveller": First four books, first four adventures, and first four supplements.

Of course that raises to the questions about whether those first four books are the three books comprising CT77 or CT81!

That's what I assume here given the reference to Regina... But note that there is also a use of "Proto Traveller" to refer to JUST books 1-3... (I've always wondered, if Proto Traveller is 4-4-4, then what is Books 1-3? Ur Traveller?).

Frank

 

[aramis]

He may be referring to what's called Proto-Traveller.

Wil often describes it as "4-4-4 Traveller": First four books, first four adventures, and first four supplements.

Of course that raises to the questions about whether those first four books are the three books comprising CT77 or CT81!

Either. The differences betwixt them aren't sufficient to majorly change a proto-setting.
Major differences:
77: damage is dice+adds; ship's PP must at least equal M-Drive, Computers must be able to run the software needed.
81: Damage is dice, no adds; ship's PP must at least equal higher of M-Drive or J-Drive, computer model must at least equal the JDrive (counting N/bis as N+1 for this purpose)

Neither has significant OTU content.

That's what I assume here given the reference to Regina... But note that there is also a use of "Proto Traveller" to refer to JUST books 1-3... (I've always wondered, if Proto Traveller is 4-4-4, then what is Books 1-3? Ur Traveller?).

Frank

The 4-4-4 vs just Bk 1-3 isn't a big difference; supps 1 & 2 are totally generic - just applications of Bk 1-3 materials in a pregenerated ready to use. Adv 1, 2, 4 are very generic, as well. S4 adds careers and more weapons (primitive ones, at that). Bk 4, when used, is used almost exclusively for the weapons table, and could just as well be replaced with Snapshot.

 

[infojunky]

Wil often describes it as "4-4-4 Traveller": First four books, first four adventures, and first four supplements.

Of course that raises to the questions about whether those first four books are the three books comprising CT77 or CT81!

What about 3rd party publications in that time frame?

 

[ffilz]

Either. The differences betwixt them aren't sufficient to majorly change a proto-setting.
Major differences:
77: damage is dice+adds; ship's PP must at least equal M-Drive, Computers must be able to run the software needed.
81: Damage is dice, no adds; ship's PP must at least equal higher of M-Drive or J-Drive, computer model must at least equal the JDrive (counting N/bis as N+1 for this purpose)

Neither has significant OTU content.

True, but you're ignoring a big implied setting difference:

'77 has space lanes
'81 has communication routes, red and amber zones

The 4-4-4 vs just Bk 1-3 isn't a big difference; supps 1 & 2 are totally generic - just applications of Bk 1-3 materials in a pregenerated ready to use. Adv 1, 2, 4 are very generic, as well. S4 adds careers and more weapons (primitive ones, at that). Bk 4, when used, is used almost exclusively for the weapons table, and could just as well be replaced with Snapshot.

And of course Supplement 3 adds the OTU, though I grant an important distinction between Supplement 3 Spinward Marches setting and later OTU is significant (even if few UWPs changed).

For me the distinctions of space lanes vs communication routes and inviting an explicit setting are significant. The lack of recognition of the Spinward Marches as a difference contributes to the feeling others and I get that to some Traveller == the OTU not the game system.

Frank

 

[aramis]

Sup 3 printing 2 and later adds the OTU; printing 1 is less polished and doesn't entirely agree with 2+...

Comm Routes vs Trade Routes: terminology difference without actual in-play mechanical effect. Note that 81 still notes them as trade routes. (Bk 2 p 5.) Not providing a mechanical determination method, however.

Likewise, the encounter tables are considerably different between 77 and 81, but again, it's not an important difference in the Proto-Concept; the same range of ships occurs.

The prototraveller concept is "Traveller before the Bk5 OTU" by the coiner of the term — not me, either — but I do adhere to the 4-4-4 only if using printing 1 of Sup 3. I have argued for inclusion of Judges Guild sectors.

Ur-Traveller has been used for "Books 1-2-3 1977 only"

A few have the "444-033" concept - No Adventure 3, no Supplement 3.

Generally, the prototraveller concept has avoided inclusion of anything by 3rd parties. Most 3rd party materials buy into the post-Bk5 3I setting to some degree.

The Imperium is functionally defined by certain parts of the S3 text, in ways that many missed, and why 4-4-4 is only ONE of several variants of ProtoTraveller.

Many are B1-2-3+(gear from 4), Sups 1-2-4, and Adventures 1, 2, 4...

Anyway, redeveloping Regina...

How much of the physical astrography from later are you looking at, san*klass?
OTU Regina is physically defined in B6 as orbiting the referenced gas giant, which is why I ask.

 

[Whipsnade]

Ur-Traveller has been used for "Books 1-2-3 1977 only"

I can see that.

A few have the "444-033" concept - No Adventure 3, no Supplement 3.

That's very interesting too. I can certainly understand axing Twilight's Peak, but if someone was going for an OTU purge you'd think Leviathan would have also qualified.

Still, whatever "blends" they're "mixing", they're making the game their own.

 

[Cryton]

And, as for the real MONUMENTAL difference between 77 and 81, ships are VERY different . X-Boats can be made with no rules-fudging, the Leviathan gets its J-Torps, and many other subtle, but major differences.

Question really becomes, 77 or 81 proto treatment.

Personally, I feel that the 77 proto treatment is the real one, but that's mainly because I have the 77 rules, and my 81 edition is actually Starter Traveller, the THIRD option for a Proto treatment.

 

[Cryton]

On a side note, IIRC, the Spinward Marches were originally built using the 77 rules. All the little inconsistency's make sense when you use the 77 rules lens.

I could be wrong though.

But if I am correct, Supplement 3 already starts with the "Proto" treatment at the 77 level.

 

[creativehum]

Comm Routes vs Trade Routes: terminology difference without actual in-play mechanical effect. Note that 81 still notes them as trade routes. (Bk 2 p 5.) Not providing a mechanical determination method, however.

There is a mechanical difference: in the 1977 rules, jump cassettes are only available if a Trade Route already exists. That means a large percentage of worlds in a given Subsector are only available to ships with Generate. It also implies that if a world is not on a Trade Route it doens't get visited very often.

In the 1981 rules, jump caskets can be purchased for any jump, with additional costs for each additional parsec. Whether or not one thinks this difference matters (and I'm sure some will say it does not), it is a difference.

As this thread will be an exercise in world building, implications of this sort matter. For example, if one uses the Communication Route per Supplement 3 but the cassettte rules from 1977, most of the subsector really is off the beaten path. Both mechanically and through fictional implication such a setup really makes the Spinward Marches much more of a frontier.

Also, the passage aramis mentions above is in Book 3, p5, not B2.

Finally, I refer to Books 1-3 as "original Traveller" -- both as a nod to OD&D and because the game was written, designed, and published to be a stand alone product without any further supplements. As such, I see the original books as their own, original game. But that's me.

 

[creativehum]

Also, aramis, I'd love to hear more about the differences between the first and second printing of Supplement 3. I suspect I have the second printing, but believe I had the first printing back in my youth.

Is the first printing on the CD-Rom? I'm away from my computer right now but curious about that.

 

[aramis]

I can see that.



That's very interesting too. I can certainly understand axing Twilight's Peak, but if someone was going for an OTU purge you'd think Leviathan would have also qualified.

Still, whatever "blends" they're "mixing", they're making the game their own.

It's worth noting that Leviathan seems to predate A3 in terms of writing; Both Kinunir and Leviathan have Bk2 sized Bk5-prototype designed ships. Both of them have a less developed Imperium, and a darker one. Thematically, they're a better fit than A3 (or even A2). Also, Leviathan is by the Games Workshop guys, not the GDW staff.... it was probably written well before publication, unlike the GDW-staff-written material.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, who did originally use the term proto-Traveller? I remember where the 4-4-4 version came from

Proto-Traveller is a misnomer - it should be proto-Third Imperium since it deals with the setting not the rules.

I have two copies of first printing S3 and the electronic version is 2nd printing, I will post any differences I can find over the weekend.
At first glance the introductory section is word for word the same - an Imperium that is no longer as strong as it once was...

 

[aramis]

Also, aramis, I'd love to hear more about the differences between the first and second printing of Supplement 3. I suspect I have the second printing, but believe I had the first printing back in my youth.

Is the first printing on the CD-Rom? I'm away from my computer right now but curious about that.

No, the 1st isn't on the CD-Rom. CD-rom has 2nd print

Mine has been errata'd by a prior owner... with whiteout.

The way to check: on the copyright page... It will have a line of numbers. The lowest number is the printing number.

 

[mike wightman]

It's worth noting that Leviathan seems to predate A3 in terms of writing; Both Kinunir and Leviathan have Bk2 sized Bk5-prototype designed ships. Both of them have a less developed Imperium, and a darker one. Thematically, they're a better fit than A3 (or even A2). Also, Leviathan is by the Games Workshop guys, not the GDW staff.... it was probably written well before publication, unlike the GDW-staff-written material.

The Kinunir, like the Gazelle, borrows from 79 High Guard, probably via some house rules of Marc that never made it to the final version. I like your Bk-5 prototype phrase

A4 is copyright 80, includes HG80 USPs in the library data, but otherwise is LBB1-3 compliant. It also reinforces the idea that the Spinward marches is only recently settled since there are unexplored subsectors adjacent, something that makes absolutely no sense in a setting where the SM have been settled for a thousand years and rift crossing is now standard practice (see MgT Great Rift).

 

[creativehum]

Hmm, who did originally use the term proto-Traveller? I remember where the 4-4-4 version came from

Proto-Traveller is a misnomer - it should be proto-Third Imperium.....

I believe Jeffro Johnson introduced the term in 2005 in this thread.

 

[Timerover51]

The copy of the Spinward Marches that I purchased from DriveThru is copyrighted 1979, and the lowest number is 2. I assume that is the second printing then? I think that I have a couple of hard copies of the Spinward Marches that may be the first printing. I will have to find them.

Personally, I like the 1977 Book 2 ships, as being able to have a smaller power plant than the Jump Drive if the Maneuver Drive is smaller just seems to make more sense. I use boost and then cruise to the Jump Point, so I have the Power Plant charging the Jump capacitors while cruising.