Proto Regina

[Whipsnade]

None of which need matter in the context of THIS game.

That's true, but if you're starting over why not start over?

The Zhurphani are really obscure, as already noted, so the write-up we have is not particularly binding.

"Not being binding" is what I've been suggesting. Thanks to T5, san*klass could populate his "proto"-Regina subsector with his own NILs in locations he's chosen. There's no real need to use the Zhurphs, Urtsy, or any others.

It also notes that the Zhurph are not actually native, which is an obvious "secret" for PCs and/or the political types to discover and react to.

Good point. While that's not any secret in the 12th Century IE, it should already be suspected in the 1st Century IE. Simple taxonomic observations will suggest that the Zhurphs (and possible some flora and fauna) aren't native to Yori and "DNA" tests easily will confirm it. Attempts to find what's left of the STL ship could be a nice adventure.

In Milieu 100, there is no overpopulated Roup, no dagger at Efate, no insular dictatorship at Algine. Not even the Octagon Society, which is still two centuries away. Beck's World is still identified as the Frisini System.

I thought Algine was the result of two "failed" colonies both, one Vilani/jump, one Solomani/STL, both about 1000 years apart, and with the resulting culture(s) very xenophobic thanks to a period of Vargr raiding. Anyway, the IISS will have an interdiction in place by the 2nd Century.

Prior to T5, NILs tended to be placed on worlds which weren't attractive to humans. After T5, the opposite is true. The higher the system population, the better chance NILs, either Native or Exotic, are present. Some results like the Urtsy still occur, but NILs will more often show up where more humans exist.

With san*klass linking population levels to "shirtsleeve" environments, systems like Efate, Heya, or Alell are going to have NILs while OTU NILs like those on Yori or Yurst won't exist.

 

[GypsyComet]

I thought Algine was the result of two "failed" colonies both, one Vilani/jump, one Solomani/STL, both about 1000 years apart, and with the resulting culture(s) very xenophobic thanks to a period of Vargr raiding. Anyway, the IISS will have an interdiction in place by the 2nd Century.

Looks like discovery by the Imperium takes place in 118 or so, and the interdict soon follows. They are pretty low tech at that point, though, so while xenophobic and likely violent, they aren't the Cold War infiltration target we see later. With their official date of first contact set, shenanigans in a vaguely Canon Milieu 100 should be kept close to that. The material suggests that the Algini were already pretty numerous, though, so justifications to keep both PCs and the IISS busy in the 30-odd years between the colonization of Regina and the discovery of the Algini might be needed. I'd suggest vargr, personally, realizing that the flow of colonialism in the Marches is likely outward from Mora, not strictly "spinward". Milieu 100 Deneb is also still mostly howling wilderness, with little more than the legend and promise of Mora to draw colonists across that wilderness. Colonialism likely radiates outward from Mora as a result, with the taming of Deneb as a side effect.

Following the Spinward Main seems likely, so the early Imperial patterns of settlement in the Marches take on a trunk and branch look, and explain the later differential development as well. As a jewel of a world on the Main, Regina gets early attention. Getting off the Main will take more time.

 

[mike wightman]

In a proto-Imperium setting the Spinward Marches have not been settled for nearly a thousand years. Forget everything you think you know about SM history from later sources.

Consider -
"The hub of new development in the Spinward Marches is the Regina subsector."(S:3)
subsectors beyond the Spinward Marches are still unexplored by civilian merchantmen(A:4)

It makes a lot more sense for the Imperium to have been in the Marches for only a few centuries at the most.

 

[creativehum]

In a proto-Imperium setting the Spinward Marches have not been settled for nearly a thousand years. Forget everything you think you know about SM history from later sources.

Consider -
"The hub of new development in the Spinward Marches is the Regina subsector."(S:3)
subsectors beyond the Spinward Marches are still unexplored by civilian merchantmen(A:4)

It makes a lot more sense for the Imperium to have been in the Marches for only a few centuries at the most.

Mike,
I'm not that familiar with all the ins-and-outs of Third Imperium product development and setting development.

For the Proto-Imperium you are suggesting would you use the UWPs as listed in Supplmenent 3? Or is there another listing you would be referring to? Or starting from scratch (as is being done in this thread.)

Curious about your thoughts on this.

 

[Whipsnade]

Looks like discovery by the Imperium takes place in 118 or so, and the interdict soon follows.

No. The interdict was announced in 118. Contact had to have occurred well before that.

Hans and I kicked around Algine for years, mostly because of his quixotic belief that he could make sense of the mess of contradictory canon involving Norris and His Magic Warrant. (Algine is the interdicted system where Norris recovered the Warrant.)

Algine is only four parsecs from Regina and that world is famously settled circa 75 IE. Furthermore, Imperial colonists pushed past Regina far enough to settle worlds in Foreven and Ziafrplians. The idea that a Terra Prime world that close to Regina would be overlooked for ~50 years beggars disbelief. Remember, the system was attractive enough to be the target of two pre-3I colonization attempts.

Hans finally came to accept the idea that the natives were xenophobic enough to rebuff all contact attempts and numerous enough to resist anything short of a full scale invasion. Algine most likely stated getting the same kinds and amounts of attention Regina around the same time frame. The reception that attention received meant most Imperials moved on to "easier" targets. Every so often someone would think they could succeed where previous missions had failed only to suffer the same fate as those previous missions. Eventually the IISS put an end to it all by interdicting the system.

(Given the timing, that interdict would have been one of the IISS' first important pieces of policy in the Marches. Hans and I thought the interdict may have been part of a "package" of policies the IISS announced once they had enough assets in the region to enforce those policies. Sort of a "This is a frontier, but it isn't a wild frontier." and "There's law west of Deneb now." proclamation.)

Following the Spinward Main seems likely, so the early Imperial patterns of settlement in the Marches take on a trunk and branch...

It's definitely trunk and branch with Algine being on a branch which only splits from Regina's branch at Turedad.

 

[Whipsnade]

For the Proto-Imperium you are suggesting would you use the UWPs as listed in Supplmenent 3?

It's not an all or nothing proposition. The physical half of the UWPs would remain the same. The social or demographic half the UWPs would change, mostly along the lines of no or far fewer Hi-Pop worlds, lower populations across the board, and more unpopulated systems.

 

[creativehum]

The social or demographic half the UWPs would change

Yes.

mostly along the lines of no or far fewer Hi-Pop worlds, lower populations across the board, and more unpopulated systems.

Maybe. For me I wouldn't mind a few strong worlds or even another pocket empire or two closer to the corridor. I know GDW's focus was on large scale conlficts between large interstellar polities. But I like things the PCs can muck around in and affect.

That the Marches is the remains of previous settlements gone fallow is something I'd want, I think. I want lots of indigenous populations (human and otherwise) from cultures alien to the PCs who have travelled to "The Frontier."

 

[aramis]

Don't know if you saw this when I originally posted it:
All of this is cribbed from CT sources.

There are no differences in the text of S:3 first printing vs 2nd printing that I can find - there may be UPP changes but that will take longer to check.

The GW printings have different printing number sequences.

 

[Whipsnade]

Maybe. For me I wouldn't mind a few strong worlds or even another pocket empire or two closer to the corridor.

You did notice how "flexible" my definition was, right? No or far fewer Hi-Pop worlds? Lower population across the board not no population? More unpopulated systems and not all unpopulated systems?

No one is thinking "binary" here.

That the Marches is the remains of previous settlements gone fallow is something I'd want, I think.

Then you may want to apply Hard Times to the sector's UWPs. It will prune back overall populations, make some worlds uninhabited, and increase the importance of "shirtsleeve" worlds.

Applying the Terra Norm and Terra Prime designations from A:4 Leviathan I mentioned earlier could be another method. The worlds that meet them are your "Strong" worlds or PE capitals with the others hosting outposts and small settlements as you see fit.

 

[creativehum]

You did notice how "flexible" my definition was, right? No or far fewer Hi-Pop worlds? Lower population across the board not no population? More unpopulated systems and not all unpopulated systems?

No one is thinking "binary" here.

If I made it sound as if I dismissed your point or was somehow trying to start an argument with you, I apologize. I wanted to be clear about my intent. I never assumed you were taking some binary position, but I can see how my post came off that way.

I'm curious about Mike's point of view on this, since it seems he's given this specific matter some thought.

 

[GypsyComet]

No. The interdict was announced in 118. Contact had to have occurred well before that.

Hans and I kicked around Algine for years, mostly because of his quixotic belief that he could make sense of the mess of contradictory canon involving Norris and His Magic Warrant. (Algine is the interdicted system where Norris recovered the Warrant.)

Algine is only four parsecs from Regina and that world is famously settled circa 75 IE. Furthermore, Imperial colonists pushed past Regina far enough to settle worlds in Foreven and Ziafrplians. The idea that a Terra Prime world that close to Regina would be overlooked for ~50 years beggars disbelief. Remember, the system was attractive enough to be the target of two pre-3I colonization attempts.

I doubt the Long Night Solomani and ex-pat Vilani colonial efforts followed the same path as the Third Imperial groups would have, as that's much too early for the lighthouse of Mora (settled in 60), and we also have lost Vilani colonies in that closest corner of Deneb. So it might be more accurate to say that two colonial efforts *stopped* at Algine a thousand years apart. One accidentally, the other possibly following old clues or threw an engine in a lucky spot.

There is also a cloud of Zhodani exploration and commerce in the region during the Long Night that goes all the way to Corridor. They may have "directed" the second group to Algine to keep them off of Regina. Until LSP (implied from their sponsorship in founding Mora) surveyed the area, the only good survey data would have been of Zhodani origin. Vargr data would be spotty and closely held, and any Long Night surveys by the Vilani would have been under fire from the Vargr and incomplete. The hostile territory problem also applies to the LSP and early IISS surveys.

The easiest way to make use of the published date of 118 and its stated events is to assume that it also sets when the Imperial border was pushed to Algine. I also have little problem with the idea of contact and interdict occurring close together. The local IISS Director of Survey and the IN Admiralty were likely operating with immense autonomy and could make quick decisions. Given how T-Prime Algine is, I suspect the IISS Director took a lot of flack for interdicting it.

I can get behind the idea that 118 is the date of IISS contact, and when they got there they found evidence of prior civilian and Vargr visits that did not end well, despite the natives being TL0.

 

[Whipsnade]

I doubt the Long Night Solomani and ex-pat Vilani colonial efforts followed the same path as the Third Imperial groups would have....

Whether Vilani or Solomani, humans are going to covet more or less the same UWP. Algine's is X766000 and, IIRC, the primary was retconned to G with that that attraction in mind.

... as that's much too early for the lighthouse of Mora (settled in 60)...

Mora, the "lighthouse", and all the rest don't figure into it at all. The Vilani arrived around -2000, the Solomani STL ship around -1000, and the refugee fleet which "uplifted" Darrian noted a colony when it surveyed the region.

... and we also have lost Vilani colonies in that closest corner of Deneb.

And Vanejen in the Marches.

So it might be more accurate to say that two colonial efforts *stopped* at Algine a thousand years apart. One accidentally, the other possibly following old clues or threw an engine in a lucky spot.

No. You're forgetting that the Solomani arrived via STL craft. They left Terra centuries before the Vilani left the fallen RoM and arrived at Algine centuries after the Vilani did. No one is following old clues.

They may have "directed" the second group to Algine to keep them off of Regina.

Why would X788000 Regina be more desirable to the Zhos than X766000 Algine?

The easiest way to make use of the published date of 118 and its stated events is to assume that it also sets when the Imperial border was pushed to Algine.

There was no one better than Hans in making disparate bits of canon fit together. I didn't agree with him all the time, but I'll go with his ideas in this.

I also have little problem with the idea of contact and interdict occurring close together.

Putting contact and interdiction together close in time means the Imperium is colonizing Regina for 50 years while somehow ignoring Algine only 4 parsecs away. The contact dates for Ruie are bad enough, we don't need to add another one like it.

The local IISS Director of Survey and the IN Admiralty were likely operating with immense autonomy and could make quick decisions.

They'll have immense authority only when they've got the assets to back up their pronouncements; i.e. "No law west of Deneb". Neither will arrive in the Marches with more than a fraction of the ships, equipment, personnel, and other assets needed survey or patrol the sector. Their authority is going to depend on how much stick they can put about and they'll need to build most of that stick first.

 

[mike wightman]

The key to understanding the populations of the planets in a proto-Imperium Spinward Marches is the bit at the beginning that says the current Imperium is the third human empire to occupy this section of space.

Forget everything we have since 'learned' about the Third Imperium and make up stuff based only on what we are told in S:3.

So the 3I is the longest lived empire to have been this way, meaning each of the two previous empires lasted less than a thousand years.

We do not know how far into our future IY 1105 is, so we do not know how far back those two previous empires were exploring and colonising the marches, but we can reasonably assume:
some worlds were settled by the first empire - some of these thrived, expanded their influence when the empire fell, some failed and went back tot he stone age etc.
some worlds were contacted by the second empire with populations from the first empire still evident, and the second empire would institute a second wave of colonisation with outcomes like those already mentioned.

By the time the Third Empire expands into this region of space many worlds already have native populations of humans that stretch back to the time of the first empire, while others only go as far back as the second empire, but it is up to the referee to decide the specific details.

Note the words Solomani, Vilani or any of their associated words appear in S:3.

We do get some dates in the subsector fluff, thankfully not too many and a lot is left to the referee to develop their own setting from it - or ignore it completely

Sword Worlds were settled 400-200 PI.
The lmperium has long maintained (since 556) a research station in the Retinae
system.
Olav led the March Fleet against the Outworld Coalition in the First Frontier War. In 604, with a victory in his pocket (and the victorious fleet at his back) he drove on the Imperial core and proclaimed himself Emperor.
The Second Frontier War (615-620)
Five Sisters - Some colonisation attempts were begun under the auspices of Emperor Paulo I in 740, but all developmental activity was stopped in the psionic suppressions of 800.
The Glisten subsector is an isolated spur of the lmperial xboat network; until 940, it was a backwater for marginal officials of the lmperial bureaucracy. However, in 941, District 268 was opened by decree of Margaret ll and has since served as a base for the colonization of the new territory.
Fourth Frontier War (1082-1084)
Esalin is an unusual world in this divided subsector; originally settled by lmperial colonists in 835, it fell to Zhodani advances in 1082.
Esalin has been declared a neutral world in a joint communique (1098)
The Imperial Research Station at Duale has reportedly suffered extreme damage from an explosion of undetermined origin in 1102.
And finally something with a date stamp of "recent":
World 728-907, recently surveyed, is a large inhabitable world with no evidence of higher animal life although extensive forestation and insect presence have been noted.
Note = only recently surveyed and yet it is D955000 and the canonical marches have been explored and settled by the Imperium for over a thousand years...

 

[Whipsnade]

The key to understanding the populations of the planets in a proto-Imperium Spinward Marches is the bit at the beginning that says the current Imperium is the third human empire to occupy this section of space.

Great point and one which is totally at odds with what we're told about the Marches post-:S3.

Forget everything we have since 'learned' about the Third Imperium and make up stuff based only on what we are told in S:3.

Even then there are statements and dates in S:3 which are at odds with each other.

We can apply spin, shift perspectives, juggle semantics, or choose to believe this more than that but the real answer is that the material - even the material in one product - wasn't written at the level of continuity we insist on holding it to.

 

[mike wightman]

Great point and one which is totally at odds with what we're told about the Marches post-:S3.

By the time we get to the Library Data in Research Station Gamma the Imperium to be is starting to take shape - but with some interesting differences (Capital) and it is where the S:3 statements start to be contradicted more and more.

Even then there are statements and dates in S:3 which are at odds with each other.

We can apply spin, shift perspectives, juggle semantics, or choose to believe this more than that but the real answer is that the material - even the material in one product - wasn't written at the level of continuity we insist on holding it to.

Yup, the timeline at the end of of my last post is taken from the fluff introducing each subsector and there is contradictory stuff in there.

Why I keep going back to it - the proto-Spinward Marches - though is I get to choose how to interpret the UPPs and define the setting, rather than relying on the views of another author.

Behind the Claw and the MgT Spinward marches supplement are of little use to me other than for canon discussions, I will never use them in one of my games since I have already adapted the original material to my game.


I'm looking forward to seeing more of san*klass' interpretation.

 

[creativehum]

Mike,

First, thanks for all that.

Second, what I'm thinking about in terms of the timeline is that several areas may have been explored or colonized in the past several hundred years (and wars occurring within that time) the implication isn't that the whole of the Marches has been colonized or explored by peoples from the other side of the Claw. Space is big, resources are limited, and choices had to be made. The Five Sisters was worthy of a solid colonization attempt far from Imperial power, but failed within 60 years, for example.

This doesn't mean that everything between the Corridor and Five Sisters was settled and colonized by the Third Imperium -- not by a long shot. It means a lot of the Marches was bypassed by the Imperium in their shot at colonizing Five Sisters. We know this because up until a couple of hundred years ago several Subsector were simply backwater holding pens for marginal Imperial officials. Yes, the Imperium had planted its flag on any certain number of worlds... but nothing was happening. The men and women on those worlds, who knew of the splendors and comforts of the Imperial Core might wake up every morning cursing the day they got this assignment, knowing they might end up dying on a world they didn't care about at all.

All of this leads to a much more interesting position (for me at least) as a Referee. Rather than the post-4-4-4 Imperium of Pax Imperium where the empire makes sure to keep peace between the stars, we have Imperial officials who either have made peace with their fates, are excited about bringing the Imperium to these "lost" worlds, who are impatient and ambitious and thus ready to cause trouble (because why not this is their shot) as they scrabble for more influence or power far from Imperial oversight, and so on. The ambitions and goals of these men and women suddenly seems interesting to me, rather the feckless paper-pushers I always conjure in my imagination when I read later source material. I understand this might be a blind spot on my part when I read the later source material and the setting strikes me as boring... but there it is.

Third, what I really like abut the emphasis on the two (two!) previous empires that once settled the Marches is that we have cultural and social reasons for uprisings and tensions with the Imperium. So often in the CT adventures the "rebels" often seem shallow and dull. (And I say this as someone who will naturally side with striking union workers!) The motivations might be "political" -- but I never get a sense of what the fight is about. Because the fact is people are weird, people are tribal, people are emotional... and get wound up by things that are in the bones.

When I think about thousands upon thousand of years of settlements and lives and cultures (which, as Mike points out is undefined history in S3) what I imagine is hundreds of worlds with specific languages, customs, clothes, rituals, instituations and more that might be at odds with the languages, customers, clothes, rituals, institutions, and more of the Imperium. Yes, the Imperium says, "We'll leave you alone, just support us, and we'll protect you." But for lots of worlds and casual confederacies within the Marches, there will always be the knowledge that in time their customs and rituals will be lost the longer they interact with the Imperium.

The notion that I could create the "two layers of lost empires" (if you will) as both an archeological exercise and as fascinating worlds building of culture is something I never thought of. But it is everything that I needed to feel comfortable and excited about running a game in the Spinward Marches.

What I'm talking about is something like Herodotus' The Histories where people have institutional and personal memories and passions about who they are, what they care about, what they are against. Grudges are held for generations, if not centuries. This means that when the Imperium shows up there is friction and tension right off the bat. And because the Imperial cultural presence is light except in a few key areas of heavy colonization, those old layers of cultural are present and strong even after centuries of Imperial presence.

Without those earlier layers the Marches are a bland slate that the Imperium simply writes over or writes on, making its mark with little effort, tension, or friction. At least as I see it. And what tension there is comes all from outside political forces (the Zhodani, the Vargr) at the vast military scale that the PCs can't really affect.

The notion that there is a ton of world-building for the Referee to do based on what he thinks the first two empires were like, what he thinks the influence of those two cultures still are, about old rivalries that the Imperium doens't care about but the citizens of these worlds very much do is all sorts of grist for incredible setting material, tension, friction, and adventure.

 

[Whipsnade]

By the time we get to the Library Data in Research Station Gamma the Imperium to be is starting to take shape - but with some interesting differences (Capital) and it is where the S:3 statements start to be contradicted more and more.

Yup, while some versions of Proto use the "4-4-4" the Imperium starts taking shape as early as A:1 Kinunir. It's different, it's darker, and - most importantly - it's already starting to contradict itself.

Yup, the timeline at the end of of my last post is taken from the fluff introducing each subsector and there is contradictory stuff in there.

Yup. One book, one author, 44 pages, and it contradicts itself. Yet we still chase the chimera of continuity. (That brings up something creativehum wrote.)

I'm looking forward to seeing more of san*klass' interpretation.

As am I. I'd love to see some of the UWPs. The game may be science fiction with advanced technology, but it's still about people. It will be fascinating to see where the people are in san*klass' version of the Regina Subsector.

What I'm talking about is something like Herodotus' The Histories where people have institutional and personal memories and passions about who they are, what they care about, what they are against.

That is an absolutely superb analogy.

The notion that there is a ton of world-building for the Referee to do based on what he thinks the first two empires were like, what he thinks the influence of those two cultures still are, about old rivalries that the Imperium doens't care about but the citizens of these worlds very much do is all sorts of grist for incredible setting material, tension, friction, and adventure.

While that allows a referee free rein to flex his creative muscles, we also must admit that the potential inherent in that is rarely if ever grasped. Most referees don't want a "ton of world-building". They want "shake & bake" or "microwave" settings. They'll add a pinch of salt or a dash of tabasco, but they haven't the time or, to be honest, the ability to "cook from scratch".

 

[creativehum]

That is an absolutely superb analogy.

Thanks!

While that allows a referee free rein to flex his creative muscles, we also must admit that the potential inherent in that is rarely if ever grasped. Most referees don't want a "ton of world-building". They want "shake & bake" or "microwave" settings. They'll add a pinch of salt or a dash of tabasco, but they haven't the time or, to be honest, the ability to "cook from scratch".

I appreciate this is true. On the other hand, it has no bearing on me. I'm only typing about what excites me.

As I've written elsewhere, GDW spent a lot of time writing about Third Imperium's political structure... even though, as defined, that structure didn't have much influence over the Spinward Marches (though that influence grew with each new book published over both CT and GURPS.) Who was emperor of the Third Imperium in 200 is of little interest to me if I'm running a game in the Spinward Marches... since that emperor has little to no influence over the Spinward Marches given the timelines in play.

What does interest me is what was going on in Spinward Marches in 200 (even though it didn't bear that name yet) since that's the stuff that might affect what the PCs encounter while they travel through the Marches.

What has become clear to me in this thread (and Mike's work) is that I missed all this. GDW was interested in the top down imposition of the Imperium on the Marches. As Miller has said, the team at GDW was alway driven to create order in their fictional environments. But I'm interested in chaos and friction for an RPG setting. What I missed was the possibility of digging into these layers (which, as far as I can tell has always summed up thousand upon thousands of years of history in a few paragraphs).

Is there a God Emperor Cult from the first Imperium still kicking around, waiting for political salvation? Are there ancient miracle technologies from the second Imperium that brought it to ruin but could still be mastered? Are the alien races that were subjugated, gained their freedom in the collapse of one of these empires, and now sees the arrival of the Third Imperium as a dire threat. Does the arrival of starship technology borough by the Third Imperium allow worlds that have been without starships for centuries to restart wars their peoples have been telling tales about for generations?

Some of these elements could span the sector, some across a subsector, and some specific to a given world.

Whether or not someone wants this stuff handed to them, what is important to me is I finally see a use for the awesome map of the Spinward Maches. By assuming layers of history and culture to play around with for the PCs to encounter and uncover there is something going on besides "20th Century First Worlds in Space" -- which is a tone and feel that never entisced me.

I mentioned Herodotus upthread. Another more RPG-focused touchstone would be Glorantha with all of its layers of cultural and historical conflicts, battles, and rifts. If I could bring that kind of energy to the Spinward Maches that would be exciting to me.

The trick would me (at least for me) to kick out the kind of historical outline Howard created for The Hyborian Age* for the my version of the Spinward Marches... the peoples, the values, th conflicts, the cultures. And then introduce the Third Imperium into that and see what happens.

This is a stew i would love to run and I think Players would have a blast running their PCs within.

* Link to Howard's essay on the fictional history of Conan's landscape.

 

[Whipsnade]

I appreciate this is true. On the other hand, it has no bearing on me.

While it has no bearing on you or me, it did control what sort of materials were written and sold. What you and I would have liked to see is not what to majority would have bought. What that oft quoted truism? That GDW famously produced a new product every 22 days for 22 years? They had a good idea of what would sell and their sales more than proved that.

At the time, a setting would sell. At the time, a setting construction kit would not sell as much. Mr. Miller mentions an early review of Traveller in which one person groused that the game didn't have enough setting materials while another groused he wouldn't play a RPG which told him what what setting to use.

These days, sandboxes and "kits" to produce them are all the rage. In the late '70s and '80s, Greyhawk, Blackmoor, and Forgotten Realms were the paradigm.

When discussing the path GDW chose for Traveller, I strongly believe we cannot ignore the other sci-fi property which appeared in 1977: Star Wars.

Much like how Tolkien's imitators changed the fantasy and not always for the best, Lucas' imitators changed sci-fi and not always for the best. The final proofs GDW sent to the printers the afternoon before they went to see Star Wars contained a game with a range of settings untouched by that movie. After the final credits rolled, however, any future Traveller products would owe more to Lucas than Tubbs, Vance, Piper, Chandler, Anderson, or Asimov.

We often talk about the "fault lines" in the game, usually pointing to the shift from "Small" to "Big" as exemplified in HG2. That's just a symptom however. It's a secondary fault line created by the game's real fault line:

The rules were inspired by one set of materials and the setting was inspired by another.

Returning the Marches to a CT77 look, to a look more like Dumerest or Grimes, requires throwing out nearly everything we know about the Marches. Why? Because the Marches were developed after Star Wars. The disconnect between what inspired the rules and what inspired the setting had occurred when S:3 was written. While the problems resulting from that disconnect would continue to build, the problems already existed.

 

[creativehum]

While it has no bearing on you or me, it did control what sort of materials were written and sold.

Agreed. I really don't know what more needs to be said about this fact. It's been stated and agreed upon by countless people -- including myself.

As far as a toolkit vs.setting goes, however, my only point is that GDW could have made a setting as interesting and fantastical as Star Wars, if they'd wished. They would have had to do the work of detailing the setting in interesting detail, rather than focusing on the top-down layering of the Third Imperium upon what is essentially a rather blank slate.

In other words, all the things that I wrote in the previous two posts provide an approach GDW could have taken. But they did not. What I'm describing above is something I want to tackle beacuse the underpinning of the Spinward Marches really didn't provide a setting for PCs in the sense of most RPG settings. The conflicts and situations GDW spent the most time on work at the high burecratic level that most PCs never get involved in.

Now, I'm not faulting GDW for approaching the setting they wanted to! It was their setting after all, and I can only hope they had a good time making it.

My point is that I'm not advocating for a toolkit approach in the posts above -- though I have advocated for such an approach in other threads. My point is that a toolkit approach is demanded in this case because I literally don't know what the environment is like that the Imperium is colonizing from Supplmenet 3. (And then, later, when the Spinward Marches was fleshed out it didn't feel much like Stars Wars to me, with innate conflcts, situations inspiring passionate and desperate causes that can be engaged at the personal level, but rather passionless corporate profit wars one time after another.0

Again, that's my take. I know many people enjoy the setting and I am not knocking the enjoyment the setting provides for others. I'm talking about what is missing for me.

But I want to be clear: I'm not advocating for a toolkit approach here. If I knew what the Spinward Marches was like before the Third Imperium rolled in I wouldn't have written the posts above. As it is, I'm excited to fill in the blanks -- but I can only be excited because the blanks are there.