Proto Regina

[creativehum]

I want to add I just came across James Maliszewski's post about Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches.

He writes in part:

It's an incredibly bare bones approach, leaving lots of room for individual referees to flesh out the Spinward Marches as they see fit, within the bounds of the basic data provided. Of course, Traveller's world descriptions are famously vague, with lots of leeway for individual interpretation of, for example, government types and other similar information. What The Spinward Marches is then is a largely blank canvas on which a referee can paint his own picture. Some elements of that picture have already been drawn in outline, but the specific shades and hues, as well as the fine details, are left entirely up to the referee to decide...

It's an incredibly open-ended, flexible supplement that can be used in a wide variety of ways. Moreover, it contains so many worlds that one could, quite literally, use it for many years without ever exhausting all of its possibilities... Certainly there's not a lot of detail here, but that's by design. Part of the fun for the Traveller referee has always been finding new and devious ways to interpret the alphanumeric world descriptions in ways to make the characters' lives "interesting" (in the Chinese curse sense) and this supplement removes a great amount of the tedium of having to randomly generate those descriptions oneself, since, in 1979, almost no one had a home computer to generate them automatically...

I still retain much fondness for the game and products like The Spinward Marches are a big part of why. Its supplements were, by and large, truly optional and intended as aids to creativity rather than replacements for them. Likewise, the default setting of the game was remarkably broad and demanded that it be individualized by each referee in order to be fully usable. I can't help but love that, which probably explains why I'm reflexively skeptical of settings that provide lots of detail. The Spinward Marches proved you didn't need a lot of details to make good use of it -- in fact, it was better that way.

I'm quoting it here because I think he's right. And to make it clear I'm not ragging on the product. James is pointing the setting is bare bones and the Referee has to bring something (anything!) to it to make it work. The spices added can be quite limited or really extraordinary -- it is up to the Referee. (I suspect the spices I would add would be considered quite exotic for many.)

Previously I had seen this as some sort of bug. After this thread I see it as a decided feature.

 

[Whipsnade]

After this thread I see it as a decided feature.

It is a feature. The point I was trying to make - and the point I believe Mike was trying to make - is that GDW did so by accident rather than purposely. The options in S:3 Mr. Maliszewski wrote about are contradicted and sometimes contradicted on the same page.

We're told in the same 44 page book that the sector is a frontier with recently surveyed worlds or recently contact populations AND that the Imperium as been active in the sector for more than 1000 years. We're told that Regina is colonized 75 IE AND that the better world 4 parsecs away isn't contacted until over 50 years later. The examples go on and on. As Mike pointed out, one statement is often contradicted by another a few sentences later.

This isn't a case of Mr. Maliszewski's various "shades and hues". This is a case of completely different outlines, completely different versions, existing side by side. Not just existing, but existing without any indication from GDW that they are fundamentally incompatible. In many cases, if you choose one option you're precluding another because both cannot be true at the same time.

Options are great. They're a big help to any referee. Options also have consequences. You can't use them all without your game becoming a random grab bag of details chosen more for expediency than continuity or plausibility.

 

[creativehum]

I can't shake the feeling you think you're arguing with me about something... but I'm not sure where we are in disagreement.

It's the internet, so that happens. But I really don't know what to say at this point.

I, too, am looking forward to san*klass' notes. Whether it is by re-working the UWPs from S3 (as san*klass is doing), or defining what all the worlds mean using the UWP as a springboard for one' imagination, S3 alone is not enough. The Referee must add work to bring the setting alive.

I can't wait to see what san*klass ends up bringing to the table for his version of the Spinward Marches.

 

[Whipsnade]

I can't shake the feeling you think you're arguing with me about something... but I'm not sure where we are in disagreement.

I thought we were agreeing with and expanding on each other's points?

 

[san*klass]

Here it is finally. Full Spreadsheet in the Files Library.

Final UWP list Trade Classification & Comments
1705 Efate B646930-D Industrial High Tech. Naval Base
1706 Alell B46789C-A Agricultural
1802 SM-R 1802 EAC6000-0 Unpopulated Declining, regressed
colony of reptillian aliens from "Shadows".
1803 Menorb B652998-7 Poor Scout Base
1805 Uakye D439498-D Private Small, fiercely Private Hi Tech
1806 SM-R 1806 X676000-0 Unpopulated
1807 Knorbes C888787-2 Agricultural
1808 Forboldn C893614-5 Non Industrial
1809 Ruie B776977-7 Industrial Now in the Imperium. Scout
Base.
1810 Jenghe C799663-9 Non Industrial
1903 SM-R 1903 X100000-0 Unpopulated Nothing there - except maybe
a secret base/prison/research station etc
1904 Boughene E8B3331-D
1909 Hefry X200000-0 Unpopulated Nothing there - except
maybe a secret base/prison/research
station etc
1910 Regina B788899-A Rich Capital. Naval Base.
2005 Feri B384879-B
2007 Roup C77A7A9-6 Water World
2106 Pscias D355423-1 Non Industrial
2110 Yori D360557-D Desert World
2201 Dentus D979500-A Scout Base
2202 Kinorb C663659-5 Non Industrial
2204 Beck's World D88349D-4
2205 Enope C411788-8 Poor
2207 Wochiers DAC25CC-9 Another unknown and abandoned reptillian
colony like "Shadows"
2303 Yorbund E7C6203-A "Shadows". Small specialist mining concern
owned and run from Dentus
2306 Shionthy E000342-8 Asteroid & Vacuum Small asteroid mining
consortiums run from Enope
2308 Algine B766977-4 Failed and regressed Agricultural colonies
in conflict.
2309 Yurst D7B4443-7 Scout Base
2402 Heya C687745-5 Agricultural
2405 Keng B2718CA-5 Non Industrial
2406 Moughas EA5A388-3 Water World
2408 Rethe C2307A8-8 Non Agricultural
2410 Inthe C575776-9 Agricultural

 

[creativehum]

Oh. Okay. Cool!

A confession: I have a blind spot about "canon." I think canon is the enemy of good storytelling when it comes to movies. I think it is its own, separate hobby in terms of RPGs that I don't have any interest in at all. So when people bring up canon my eyes glaze over and I simply slide by all the words.

In terms of of contradictions in S4, my approach will always be not that it is a contradiction in terms of generally applied logic, but rather, "Why did this happen in this particular case?"

So, if first contact with a lovely, nearby world is made decades after I think it would be made, my first question isn't, "Why is this wrong?" rather, "What happened here to make it take so long" It is a conundrum to be explored rather than a mistake to be fixed.

I understand I might be unique in this approach on this board... but there it is.

 

[Whipsnade]

Here it is finally. Full Spreadsheet in the Files Library.

Sweet! Some of the worlds aren't what I would have done and that's exactly what makes seeing material like this so important.

Thanks for your spread sheet and the new ideas it brings.

 

[Timerover51]

When I see the term "Proto Regina", all I can think of with respect to the earliest books are the 1977 Edition of the Little Black Books, the first edition of the Spinward Marches, and Adventure 1: The Kinunur. Both of the latter were first published in 1979. There is no mention of the Imperium or Regina in the LBBs, and there is not a whole lot on Regina in Adventure 1. I am not in favor of applying changes in later editions of the rules to the earlier editions, rather I simply view the later editions on Alternate Universes which are Official for that set of rules.

 

[aramis]

I am not in favor of applying changes in later editions of the rules to the earlier editions, rather I simply view the later editions on Alternate Universes which are Official for that set of rules.

pretty much my view, as well... however...

The OSR movement includes three major tracks...
Track 1: Adapting modern OGL systems to replicate the feel and/or mechanics of out of print editions of old games that are fondly remembered and still played.
Track 2: Writing new adventures and settings for use with the games from Track 1
Track 3: Adapting others' new settings to work in older games and/or track 1's retroclones/pseudoclones.

Essentially, Prototraveller is a codeword for a pre-81 retroclone, except that one doesn't have to actually retroclone it, because Marc keeps it available...

Track 3 tends to be unofficial... but not entirely so. A few are licensed, and a few are unlicensed rewrites from the developer after leaving the company....

Adapting Sup 3 for a smaller imperium and more true to its descriptions is of merit for a subset of players looking for that retroclone feel. Such adaptations with the tacit approval of the designer is one of the purposes for keeping this site running.

This is also why the board supports Cepheus Engine - In my eyes, and in Marc's, it's still within the scope of Traveller.

So, let's support the effort.
The why?
Because such revisions are in fact useful to some of the youth out there playing the game, who want to try the old feel. (Ed, Jax - yes, I'm talking about y'all.)

 

[Timerover51]

pretty much my view, as well... however...

The OSR movement includes three major tracks...
Track 1: Adapting modern OGL systems to replicate the feel and/or mechanics of out of print editions of old games that are fondly remembered and still played.
Track 2: Writing new adventures and settings for use with the games from Track 1
Track 3: Adapting others' new settings to work in older games and/or track 1's retroclones/pseudoclones.

Essentially, Prototraveller is a codeword for a pre-81 retroclone, except that one doesn't have to actually retroclone it, because Marc keeps it available...

Track 3 tends to be unofficial... but not entirely so. A few are licensed, and a few are unlicensed rewrites from the developer after leaving the company....

Adapting Sup 3 for a smaller imperium and more true to its descriptions is of merit for a subset of players looking for that retroclone feel. Such adaptations with the tacit approval of the designer is one of the purposes for keeping this site running.

This is also why the board supports Cepheus Engine - In my eyes, and in Marc's, it's still within the scope of Traveller.

So, let's support the effort.
The why?
Because such revisions are in fact useful to some of the youth out there playing the game, who want to try the old feel. (Ed, Jax - yes, I'm talking about y'all.)

Sorting through all of that, I think that it means you sort of agree with me. Aramis, I am not being either facetious or sarcastic.

One adventure that I would like to see worked on some more by Marc, is the article on Victoria in Lanth. I have some ideas on it, but I am not sure how that would work.

 

[Marchand]

I've been following this thread with interest. I really like the way this is going, and the ideas being put out are exciting.

Whether or not someone wants this stuff handed to them, what is important to me is I finally see a use for the awesome map of the Spinward Maches. By assuming layers of history and culture to play around with for the PCs to encounter and uncover...

...Another more RPG-focused touchstone would be Glorantha with all of its layers of cultural and historical conflicts, battles, and rifts. If I could bring that kind of energy to the Spinward Maches that would be exciting to me.

The trick would me (at least for me) to kick out the kind of historical outline Howard created for The Hyborian Age* for the my version of the Spinward Marches... the peoples, the values, th conflicts, the cultures. And then introduce the Third Imperium into that and see what happens.

This is a stew i would love to run and I think Players would have a blast running their PCs within.

Hope this comes across as a friendly and constructive challenge - doesn't this just amount to adding back in a whole new, albeit different canon?

Put another way, I can't see how the kind of deep historical background you're referring to facilitates play any more than, say, the Fifth Frontier War. GDW gave us those tensions and frictions between senior leaders, at least on the Imperial side, for the PCs to get stuck into. I'm no expert on (and not very interested in) Traveller canon, but there is the stuff about Norris and his warrant, for example.

You could even argue a war is an inherently dramatic situation in a way that a thousand years of setting history perhaps isn't, at least not immediately.

Slightly different point - the charm of proto-Traveller for me (interpeted as ditching the 3I) is the emergent quality. Ref has a sketch of a general background, a few UWPs and maybe one or two patrons and rumours ready to roll. The PCs just turn up and start doing stuff. The setting's "canon" emerges organically to provide context to what happens at the table.

Coming up with something like Howard's essay for Traveller just seems to replace Golden Era canon with M:100 canon.