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[Proto-Traveller] Book 2 Plus (includes smallcraft)

The problem here is that there is no way to make the Annic Nova's solar collector powered jump drive less efficient than the standard drive without doing something supremely silly, like linking them to a solar collector instead of a power plant. There's nothing magical about solar power. It turns into good oldfashioned Mark I electricity. And there are rather specific limits to the amount of power you can collect with solar collectors of a given size. If you can power the drives in a week under optimum conditions (it takes 1-6 weeks according to the original adventure) by solar sail, you can power it a lot quicker with a fusion power plant.
It's the accumulator rather than the actual solar collector I would make the slow charging bit - power it however you like but the accumulator based jump engine takes a long time to charge, whereas the capacitor version can be charged quickly from a fusion plant.

Two very different technologies that produce the same effect - entry to jumpspace.
 
It's the accumulator rather than the actual solar collector I would make the slow charging bit - power it however you like but the accumulator based jump engine takes a long time to charge, whereas the capacitor version can be charged quickly from a fusion plant.
And we know that the accumulator can hold a charge for at least six weeks. So what you do is you start recharging the accumulator from your power plant as soon as you've entered jumpspace. By the time you exit at your destination, you're all set for the next jump. Whatever idiosyncratic sensitivity to the recharge rate you come up with, the merchant simply adjust the power flow to emulate that of a solar collector.


Hans
 
I believe you are mistaken, the Jump Drive does not require hydrogen to function, it merely needs charged capacitors and most civilizations in OTU use fusion. This does not mean that it is required, it is just the method used by the Major Races of Charted Space.

If all the JD needs to work is charged capacitors, then they could be charged with an antimatter plant (when TL allows for them). In MT, where AM plants are usable (at TL 17+), you still need hydrogen fuel (albeit at diminishing amounts with higher TLs) for your JD to work.

JD need hydrogen, according to most sources (AFAIK, all sources except Annic Nova and the capsule shown in The Secret of the Ancients, maybe there's other artifacts that jump without hydrogen and I've not read about). According to most calculations about energy needed, most of this hydrogen is not used to generate energy. What is all the rest of hydrogen used for (coolant, maintaining the jump bubble*, etc) has been a source of many discusions, but, AFAIK, there's no hard canon answer to it.

* Form MGT core book page 141

Jump Travel

(...)the ship (...) hangs in a shimmering bubble of boiling hydrogen (...)

So it seems to hint that, in MGT, this is what all (or part of) this hydrogen is used for, but not sure about other versions...
 
And we know that the accumulator can hold a charge for at least six weeks. So what you do is you start recharging the accumulator from your power plant as soon as you've entered jumpspace. By the time you exit at your destination, you're all set for the next jump. Whatever idiosyncratic sensitivity to the recharge rate you come up with, the merchant simply adjust the power flow to emulate that of a solar collector.


Hans
Nope - the accumulator discharges throughout the jump in order to maintain the jump field. You can't charge it in jump as it is operational.
 
The idea that the Annic Nova is some Druid Princess with a TL 16 widget is fine by engineering principles; there aren't any TL16 yards for construction and maintenance. The authorities know the tech and don't care, however they might not want that tech falling into hands outside the Imperium.

The elephant in the room as per the TL tables is the non-conformity to the efficiency principle. A TL 9 Jump 1 ship is no different from a TL 15 ship, while a TL 15 ship by standard principle should have it's drive and power plant, smaller and more efficient. Ingnorance of the principle makes by example that we would still be using Univac's and Model T's today, which obviously we do not. Thus one can assume the TL tables only show as a general guide and not literal progression.
 
Nope - the accumulator discharges throughout the jump in order to maintain the jump field. You can't charge it in jump as it is operational.
Oh, I see. This jump drive operates according to completely different physical laws than the standard jump drive!

Sorry, not buying it. Jump drives are used to enter jumpspace and uses all the fuel prior to entry. The capacitors are emptied while initiating the jump. The bubble of realspace surrounding the ship is maintained by the ordinary power plant.


Hans
 
Oh, I see. This jump drive operates according to completely different physical laws than the standard jump drive!

Sorry, not buying it. Jump drives are used to enter jumpspace and uses all the fuel prior to entry. The capacitors are emptied while initiating the jump. The bubble of realspace surrounding the ship is maintained by the ordinary power plant.


Hans
Lol - explain to me these laws :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yes, in all seriousness I am proposing that the laws of physics in the OTU allow for more that one technological way to access jump space - leaving aside the psionic matrix explanation I was going to use since I know how much you like using psionics or ancient maguffins to solve problems like this.

And now to pick it apart sentence by sentence.

Jump drives are used to enter jumpspace and uses all the fuel prior to entry.
You mean apart from the canonical drives that don't use jump fuel?

Or the canon description of some of the fuel being used to maintain the jump field.

And would that be a jump drive that burns all its fuel prior to jump regardless of distance or a jump drive that only uses what is needed due to the jump governor ( which suddenly becomes standard in all jump engines).

Wait a sec. do you mean a jump drive that needs a power plant of equal rating or a jump drive that doesn't require a power plant at all?

The capacitors are emptied while initiating the jump.
Capacitors, not accumulators ;)
The bubble of realspace surrounding the ship is maintained by the ordinary power plant.
Apart from in the most common ship in the Imperium - the x-boat which does not have a power plant.

Face it - my explanation works within the confines of canon and MWM's jumpspace article.
 
the original Annic Nova presents the ship as a curiosity to the powers that be - not some super advanced design that would be worth an Emperor's ransom

Marc has downplayed the high TL nature of the ANNIC NOVA as well, preferring it to be a hodgepodge of components that have been replaced and re-replaced for a long time. Sort of like the legend of the Argo: it's "still there", but every plank has been replaced so many times...

also that Annic Nova class ships can be encountered in different adventuring situations, implying a lot more than just 1 ship.

That is also true, though I suspect there are depths yet to be plumbed here.
 
The elephant in the room as per the TL tables is the non-conformity to the efficiency principle. A TL 9 Jump 1 ship is no different from a TL 15 ship, while a TL 15 ship by standard principle should have it's drive and power plant, smaller and more efficient. Ingnorance of the principle makes by example that we would still be using Univac's and Model T's today, which obviously we do not. Thus one can assume the TL tables only show as a general guide and not literal progression.

QFT.

I would prefer to see a ladder of technologies being born, maturing, then fading into obsolescence as replacement technologies take over. Marc, however, has taken a different tack in T5, allowing a given TL to produce superior components from earlier tech, and inferior components leading to future tech. There are tradeoffs. I can see the benefits and drawbacks of both methods.
 
Hans said:
Jump drives are used to enter jumpspace and use all the fuel prior to entry. The capacitors are emptied while initiating the jump. The bubble of realspace surrounding the ship is maintained by the ordinary power plant.

Marc has drafted a canon-closing encyclical on jump. According to it, this is only generally true, as the power plant is the magical entity which converts all that fuel to energy [in such a very short time].

(I wonder what we can do to make sure all the loopholes are closed up on this topic?)
 
Lol - explain to me these laws.

How can I when no one has ever come up with a self-consistent set of laws? Demonstrate that all fuel is used up prior to jump? That I can do. Check out the rules for drop tanks.

Yes, in all seriousness I am proposing that the laws of physics in the OTU allow for more that one technological way to access jump space - leaving aside the psionic matrix explanation I was going to use since I know how much you like using psionics or ancient maguffins to solve problems like this.

Very well. So this jump drive has the energy fed to it over the entire week. The power needed is no more than what can be collected by solar sails in a week under optimum conditions, an amount that a small power plant is just as capable of supplying. Just why do we need the accumulator at all? Why not simply feed the power to the jump drive directly from a power plant?

You'd have a better chance showing that I'm wrong about the amount of energy those solar sails can supply. I don't know how to calculate that myself, so I've had to take the words of other people for it that a small power plant would be enough to supply an equal amount of energy. Perhaps the people who told me were wrong.

But I doubt it.

Jump drives are used to enter jumpspace and uses all the fuel prior to entry.
You mean apart from the canonical drives that don't use jump fuel?

No, of course not. Including them. Assuming for purposes of argument that such a drive actually exists, it uses up all the fuel it's ever going to use before entering jump space. It certainly will not have any fuel left over to keep the drive chugging along for the week in jumpspace since it didn't have any to begin with.

Or the canon description of some of the fuel being used to maintain the jump field.

You mean a failed attempt to explain the canonical rules of jump travel -- an attempt that explicitly contradicts the existing rules for drop tanks? That canon description? The one that explicitly retconned drop tanks out of existence, right? Oh, wait, it didn't retcon drop tanks away. They were still there! Epic fail!

And would that be a jump drive that burns all its fuel prior to jump regardless of distance or a jump drive that only uses what is needed due to the jump governor ( which suddenly becomes standard in all jump engines).

Well, I should hope jump governors would become standard given how useful and how cheap they are. In fact, they're so useful and so cheap that it's belief-shatteringly unlikely that they wouldn't be used in practically every jump drive. So the fact that it wasn't standard all along is a discrepancy and the new fact that it is standard in all jump drives would qualify as a retcon. As you know, retcons overwrite previously published information, rendering it useless as evidence of how thing actually are.

Wait a sec. do you mean a jump drive that needs a power plant of equal rating or a jump drive that doesn't require a power plant at all?

Ships with jump drives need power plants of ratings at least equal to the jump drive; everybody knows that (Retcon again; any previously published canon source that claims differently has been superceded). But who says the jump drive needs the power plant? It could be a correlation, and that is my explanation. Jump-6 drives can put the ship into jumpspace-6 where a power plant 6 is needed to maintain the protective bubble. Jump-1 drives can only put the ship into jumpspace-1, where a power plant-1 is enough to provide protection.

Apart from in the most common ship in the Imperium - the x-boat which does not have a power plant.

That would be the X-boats that were designed by the rules that were later retconned away, leaving the grandfathered X-boat as one of the most broken designs in canon? (Mind you, it has some stiff competition ;)).

Andf you want to use it as evidence?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Say no more. For sheer whimsical absurdity you're never going to top that one!
Face it - my explanation works within the confines of canon and MWM's jumpspace article.

Face it, your explanation is hopelessly broken.


Hans
 
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(I wonder what we can do to make sure all the loopholes are closed up on this topic?)
Work out a version that is self-consistent and be prepared to accept all the ramifications, retconning out the parts of the old rules and setting that do not fit with the new paradigm, no matter how painful. If some of the fuel is used during the week in jumpspace, change the rules for drop tanks (and the Gazelle specs). If a power plant is needed, change the X-boat specs, etc..

(The X-boats are far, far overdue for a thoroughgoing retcon anyway :devil:).


Hans
 
QFT.

I would prefer to see a ladder of technologies being born, maturing, then fading into obsolescence as replacement technologies take over. Marc, however, has taken a different tack in T5, allowing a given TL to produce superior components from earlier tech, and inferior components leading to future tech. There are tradeoffs. I can see the benefits and drawbacks of both methods.

I can see that as well. I have been waiting for a new ACS draft before making any of my thoughts known from the playtest and reading the various versions. QREBS would be able to fulfill some of the conditions of the efficiency principle. Something I would change is over-clocking, imo it sounds like playing russian roulette with the reactor, which wouldn't be done (the term also seems funny for what it is representing). A cleaner way would to be just to add an auxilliary reactor to the Jump Drive, which is what would be done in principle and has the added benefit of making the x-boat canonical.

Marc has drafted a canon-closing encyclical on jump. According to it, this is only generally true, as the power plant is the magical entity which converts all that fuel to energy [in such a very short time].

(I wonder what we can do to make sure all the loopholes are closed up on this topic?)

Loopholes can be where the fun gets in many times if you are a creative GM or player. IMTU for jump I use False Vacuum and just call it a "False Vacuum Metastability Event" or FVME.

The nice thing is that it a) is grounded in scientific theory and b) works with canon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_vacuum

Here is a picture

coshp2.gif


IMTU the child universe nucleates back into this universe and it is the warping of space around the event that provides the distance travelled.

I would be happy to never see another retcon myself, the OTU is rather a brilliant little literary gem if steps back and looks at it.
 
Work out a version that is self-consistent and be prepared to accept all the ramifications, retconning out the parts of the old rules and setting that do not fit with the new paradigm, no matter how painful. If some of the fuel is used during the week in jumpspace, change the rules for drop tanks (and the Gazelle specs). If a power plant is needed, change the X-boat specs, etc..

(The X-boats are far, far overdue for a thoroughgoing retcon anyway :devil:).


Hans
Hear, hear.

I agree completely with Hans.

One final change I would suggest is to rationalise the LBB2 drive tables and the HG drive percentages.

Either LBB2 is right - large jump drive, small manoeuvre drive

or

HG is right - large manoeuvre drive, small jump drive.

Pick one and officially condemn the other to the bin.

Just remember that there are more ships in CT adventures designed using LBB2 than there are HG designed ships.
 
Just remember that there are more ships in CT adventures designed using LBB2 than there are HG designed ships.

Many of which already got refigured as HG derivative designs for T20.
And most of the same ones got refigured into MGT versions, too.
 
Hear, hear.

I agree completely with Hans.

One final change I would suggest is to rationalise the LBB2 drive tables and the HG drive percentages.

Either LBB2 is right - large jump drive, small manoeuvre drive

or

HG is right - large manoeuvre drive, small jump drive.

Pick one and officially condemn the other to the bin.

Just remember that there are more ships in CT adventures designed using LBB2 than there are HG designed ships.

I am not sure that justifying the switch to a LBB2 type system due to the encumberance of a larger number of ships designed in official publications is a good one.

Indeed, many, if not most of those designs, and especially the much sought after deckplans that accompany them, tend to be wrong in some way.

I would suggest that strictly based upon the numbers of accessible designs out there, more ships have been published using LBB5 than LBB2. In addition, the tools available to design said ships are much more widely available (in the form of spreadsheets and Andrew's superior HGS project). Further, most rules sets go by the "what was published last" paradigm of what's the "correct" version to use, and HG certainly is that (insofar as CT is concerned).

All that being said, there is certainly some need for adjustment to the HG system if it were to be adopted; for example there probably ought to be some sort of adjustment for civilian vs. military crew requirements (smaller for the civvy ships). In addition, I also don't see he 3I having too many civvy J6 ships running about (or possibly even J5); perhaps these would be adjusted be be military and scouts only, and possible much more expensive,etc.

Anyway, that's my 2 centicredits.
 
I am not sure that justifying the switch to a LBB2 type system due to the encumberance of a larger number of ships designed in official publications is a good one.

Indeed, many, if not most of those designs, and especially the much sought after deckplans that accompany them, tend to be wrong in some way.

I would suggest that strictly based upon the numbers of accessible designs out there, more ships have been published using LBB5 than LBB2. In addition, the tools available to design said ships are much more widely available (in the form of spreadsheets and Andrew's superior HGS project). Further, most rules sets go by the "what was published last" paradigm of what's the "correct" version to use, and HG certainly is that (insofar as CT is concerned).

All that being said, there is certainly some need for adjustment to the HG system if it were to be adopted; for example there probably ought to be some sort of adjustment for civilian vs. military crew requirements (smaller for the civvy ships). In addition, I also don't see he 3I having too many civvy J6 ships running about (or possibly even J5); perhaps these would be adjusted be be military and scouts only, and possible much more expensive,etc.

Anyway, that's my 2 centicredits.
The corpus of official CT adventures that use LBB2 designed ships far exceed the number of original HG designs that make it into the original CT material. Most of the HG designs are in one supplement (S9) and many of them are broken.
Some of the licenced products, e.g. FASA, got the HG rules wrong and designed illegal ships.
The rest is fan produced.

I have probably designed a lot more HG based ships than LBB2, yet for PC scale adventures I keep coming back to LBB2.

And as for the last produced rules trumping what has gone before that would make the Traveller Starter Edition the defining ruleset - guess which design system it uses ;)
 
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