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Proto-Traveller

Two posts one after the other mentioning my work! Yey! Thank you for finding it useful. I feel flattered :)

On a more serious note, "pure" LBB2 has four major flaws:

1) Turrets are the only weapons available. This causes two problems: first, it does not allow a warship to carry more firepower than a well-armed trader (as you can't devote more than one ton of armament per 100 tons of ship), and second, it means that a big ship has to roll to-hit a huge number of times per combat turn in order to use all of its weapons.

2) LBB2 drives allow for high jump numbers at relatively low TLs, at least with small ships; at TL9 you could reach Jump 3 (computer availability prevents you from reaching Jump 6), and at TL12 you could get to Jump 6. This means that lower TL does not limit the universe size as effectively as it does in HG: faster travel means faster exploration and easier control of larger empires.

3) No armor. That means that a missile fired by a Type-S could cause major damage to a 5,000-dton dreadnought - it could get up to 6 rolls on the damage tables, which could hurt a lot, and have a chance of triggering a critical roll.

4) The LBB2 combat system has several problems, ranging from insufficient and unclear sensor, missile and sandcaster rules, through cumbersome vector movement, to the above-mentioned lack of armor (or advantage of size) which makes fighters the rulers of the day (more firepower per dton, and as lethal as capital-ship weapons).

All of these problems are solvable.

1) This could be solved by adding heavy, dton-consuming weapons which serve two functions: to up-gun the capital warships (thus forcing the designers to choose between cargo/troops/fighters and big guns), and to consume several hardpoints per weapon (thus reducing the amount of to-hit rolls per turn). An interesting attempt at this direction by tbeard1999 could be found here.

2) This could be solved by using HG TL limits on jump drives. But, in fact, how much would LBB2 jump drives affect play? PCs, after all, rarely get high-jump ships, so the only problem is with the TU size; in a proto-Imperium, this isn't much of a problem.

3) Armor could be added; I am not sure in which way to do so (use HG fomulae or write down a table) and how it would deal with damage (absorb damage or reduce the chance to hit?), but it is definitely doable.

4) This is solvable as well, by using range-band combat instead of vectors and by adding better sensor and missile rules.
 
So has anyone put together a PDF or document detailing all these outlines for Proto-Traveller? I think it would make a great Stellar Reaches article...
 
Just my own campaign notes and snippets I've posted to CotI over the years - maybe one day I'll get the time to write it all down properly.
 
There are severe limits on the size of ships in LBB2 as regards the "high" Jumps exceeding TL (some aren't even legally possible to build due to fuel, etc);
TL9:
J2 100, 200, 400t
J3 100, 200
J4 (computer limited)

TLA:
J2 100, 200, 400, 600, 800t
J3 100, 200, 400t
J4 100, 200, 400t
J5 (computer limited)

TLB:
J3 100, 200, 400, 600t
J4 100, 200, 400t
J5 100, 200, 400t
J6 (computer limited)

TLC:
J4 100, 200, 400, 600t
J5 100, 200, 400t
J6 100, 200, 400t

TLD:
J5 100, 200, 400, 600t
J6 100, 200, 400t

TLE:
J6 100, 200, 400, 600t

small and fast ships are usually extremely limited in their utility, due to computer cost, fuel requirements & crew (Man those turrets!), and it gets REAL expensive if they have the required software to utilize that stuff effectively. 600t for me is a magic number as that's when subsidies come in, allowing a greater reach to markets for trading than would otherwise be possible. when trade volumes are in the hundreds of tons a week, compared to the costs of the ships, the lower TL worlds need any help they can get. If high J-capable ships are armed, it gets real tight having a valid design.
There are limits on ship production too, starport (and i think population requirement of some sort too). By allowing the fun drives, it enables a more highly meshed structure of ship TLs, types, and sources, versus say a TL15 (i use like TLC cap personally) Imperium churning out the sole high jump capable vessels and dominating space. Put another way, allowing the fun ships leads to more capable pirates, er, traders, er, .... lol. A TL9 world with port A/B (world governments (gov 7 anyone?) can make star ships with B ports as planetary navies) and some decent population, with LL 3 allows nuc missiles for sale. Personally for me it fits with an early/small/weak imperium ala proto-traveller to have some higher capability for otherwise limited worlds.
Allowing "only" J by TL results pretty quickly in monopoly control of space by few, far, and scattered high TL hi pop worlds. I'd rather those High J large ship convoys of the high TLs (likely going between themselves i think) need to be escorted to protect them as a drain on the polity as opposed to cruising unopposed and uncontested throughout the universe. ymmv.
On a related note all the canon stuff i've seen limits ground facilities to 1000t max, this means any ship larger than that can't land. Streamlining at that point would be LBB5 "partial", only good for GG skimming (or making a prettier meteor as it goes down) The limits on targeting from the comps and programs, and HG batteries, while only quasi-proto-traveller (heh) i got around by requiring the LBB4 Computer Fire Control Systems (simultaneous tracks, gracefully load-shedding capabilities, making it virtually impossible to overload by massed fire) has too sweet a ring.
regarding armor, all those descriptions of "compartmentalization" would i dunno maybe have a roll on the hull decompression "section", essentially allowing more hits to totally decompress the ship. maybe something similar for weapons, per weapon rather than an entire turret if armored? fuel loss less per hit? others have done a lot more on armor for the LBB2 than I, just a thought i have on the matter.
Financing, and dates. ship payment 1/240 per month, assumes 12 months, 52 weeks per year assumes 13 months, 25 J/ yr also assumes 13 months, with 2 weeks lost for the annual maintenance. wouldn't 1/260 be better in that case? tighter, definitive rules for missile carriage (18/t using the missile supplement vs 100 some odd using other things), deadfall ordanance/ orbital bombardment rules to tie in with FO would be sweet.
Extended Life Support, especially as i can see a J1 slow trader limping between the J4 xboat routes. I use 1.5t/p month, that using straight O2 tankage from LBB3, rations (preserved), and the remainder water. idea being for scout/exploration type ships or on low TL worlds to just fill up the air tanks (using your O2 tank compressor !!! new ship component) and water tanks (using the BIG purifier), maybe scrounge hunt up some feed or trade with the people there for it. others i've seen about (still awaiting beltstrike) are 1t 50ppweeks at 25k (would be 50k no?), and from the traders run thread here .1t 2k for 1p 2 weeks. Like the extended hydroponic stuff in the expanded in general. Should be smaller factory/smelting modules, details on manufacturing capabilities for a machine shop somehow, would add a lot to the game in my mind.
 
Adventure 0, The Imperial fringe, Introductory Adventure. is in the Double Adventures 1-6+ book, the CT CD too i imagine. Contract to (re) survey all the world in the spinward marches for the Scouts, so has that sector worked out.
 
Taking everybody's charts into consideration, how about this 4x4 map:

Code:
Gvurrdon          Lair        Coreward Rift  2K Worlds
Spinward Marches  Corridor    Core           Ley
Outrim Void       Great Rift  Gushemege      Glimmerdrift
Aslan             Aslan       Solomani Rim   Hivers

Benefits:
* 4x4 sectors.
* Terra is appx 120 parsecs from Regina.
* Bisected Imperium.
* Most 'important' aliens accounted for, except for Zhodani.
* Corridor is still 'there', more or less.
* Core's old name is Vland. Capital is replaced by Vland (the world).
* Foreven and surroundings are true frontiers.

Sacrifices:
* Sylea is no longer.
* Zhodani empire is not 'accounted for' (perhaps that's another sourcebook).
* K'Kree and Hivers are moved around a bit.
 
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Taking everybody's charts into consideration, how about this 4x4 map:

Code:
Gvurrdon          Lair        Coreward Rift  2K Worlds
Spinward Marches  Corridor    Core           Ley
Outrim Void       Great Rift  Gushemege      Glimmerdrift
Aslan             Aslan       Solomani Rim   Hivers

If you don't mind a suggestion, I'd put the Imperial borders for SolRim to be where the appropriate supplement puts it, and CorRif to be about halfway through.

I'd also put the 2k Worlds on the Trailing side of Ley and the Hivers Trailing of SolRim, with "scattered states" to be where they are now.
 
If you don't mind a suggestion, I'd put the Imperial borders for SolRim to be where the appropriate supplement puts it, and CorRif to be about halfway through.

I'd also put the 2k Worlds on the Trailing side of Ley and the Hivers Trailing of SolRim, with "scattered states" to be where they are now.

Sure... and actually, I think I'd rather push Hivers and K'Kree (and yes, even the Solomani) off the "main" map, leaving them as-is (or for someone else to butcher).

And frankly, all the Imperium needs is a 4x3 sector map. But... could the map perhaps center on Capital?

Here's my "more accurate" dot-map concept. Capital is marked with 'v'. S-M is the Spinward Marches.

Code:
..........|.........|....  ...|.........
...S-M....|.. .     |....  ...|.........
..........|.        |   .v....|.........
..........|        .|.........|.........
----------------------------------------
......... |        .|.........|.........
......... |    .    |.........|.........
......... |         |.........|.........
........  |         |.........|.........
----------------------------------------
...       |     ....|.........|.........
...       | ........|.........|.........
.       ..|.........|.........|.........
      ....|.........|.........|.........


And here's my "Capital Center" concept, which would put Capital more or less in the center of its smallish, gangly empire.

Code:
..........|.........|.      ..|.........
..........|...     .|..      .|.........
..........|...     .|..      .|.........
..........|.........|...     .|.........
----------------------------------------
..........|.........|....  ...|.........
...S-M....|.. .     |....  ...|.........
..........|.        |   .v....|.........
..........|        .|.........|.........
----------------------------------------
......... |        .|.........|.........
......... |    .    |.........|.........
......... |         |.........|.........
........  |         |.........|.........
 
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We don't need to eliminate Sylea, nor to make Vland Capital...

Sylea, Capital and Vland could all be in the same sector. WHy would this happen?

1) Vland shouldn't be the capital; it would have been trashed pretty well at the end of the 1st Imperium, and it's governance role would be a liability, not an asset.
2) Sylea, while not of need proto-traveller, could be better explained as a minor world which didn't get hit by the end of the 2I.
3) Capital would be a new capital declared by the Syleans as part of a compromise with the others joining the 3I. It prevents "Sylean Federation" politics from becoming "Imperial Politics".

So put Vland up the upper rift , and Capital where Vland is shown. This gives us the canonical Bilandin Main, but also puts capital on the edge.
 
Question for robject 4x3 map

If you are using the capital center 4x3 map what would the names be for each of the sectors (is each one a sector?) ?

I read your earlier post showing a 4x4 with the sector names and I am not sure how that maps onto the 4x3.

Thanks all for this great thread. I am getting ready to fire up a CT game and the proto-Traveller idea is really giving me some good ideas.
 
If you are using the capital center 4x3 map what would the names be for each of the sectors (is each one a sector?) ?

I read your earlier post showing a 4x4 with the sector names and I am not sure how that maps onto the 4x3.

Thanks all for this great thread. I am getting ready to fire up a CT game and the proto-Traveller idea is really giving me some good ideas.

They'd be the same - top row would start with Gvurrdon. Maybe with some tinkering: with the smaller map, I was thinking about moving some of the Vland subsectors into Tuglikki, giving the Imperium a foothold there. But I'm not sure.
 
Proto-traveller maps

So I put a map together of a capital centered bisected rift based on robject's posts. I modified it a little for my needs. It is 4 sectors wide and 3 sectors deep.

If you have a specific map you want created would be willing to make a couple more. Or I can just send you the raw png files and you can do it yourself.

I put the maps together from png images using OpenOffice and Gimpshop.

Ara

Edit: I put the maps as a zip file in the Downloads section of the forum.
Here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=14631
 
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I hope that this goes further. Probably won't, unless one of us takes it to Mongoose as an Alternate Traveller Setting.

One thing I would like to say, and can't remember if I've said it before,is that some very nice people here were working on expanding LBB2 to allow ships up to 12,000 tons; I would like to see it adapted to ProtoTraveller.
 
We don't need to eliminate Sylea, nor to make Vland Capital...

Sylea, Capital and Vland could all be in the same sector. WHy would this happen?

1) Vland shouldn't be the capital; it would have been trashed pretty well at the end of the 1st Imperium, and it's governance role would be a liability, not an asset.
2) Sylea, while not of need proto-traveller, could be better explained as a minor world which didn't get hit by the end of the 2I.
3) Capital would be a new capital declared by the Syleans as part of a compromise with the others joining the 3I. It prevents "Sylean Federation" politics from becoming "Imperial Politics".

So put Vland up the upper rift , and Capital where Vland is shown. This gives us the canonical Bilandin Main, but also puts capital on the edge.

Code:
.........|.........|.      ..|.........
.........|...     .|..      .|.........
.........|...     .|..      .|.........
.........|.........|...     .|.........
---------------------------------------
.........|.........|.V..  ...|.........
..S-M....|.. .     |....  ...|.........
.........|.        |   .C.S..|.........
.........|        .|.........|.........
---------------------------------------
........ |        .|.........|.........
........ |    .    |.........|.........
........ |         |.........|.........
.......  |         |.........|.........
 
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some very nice people here were working on expanding LBB2 to allow ships up to 12,000 tons; I would like to see it adapted to ProtoTraveller.

I saw expanded drive lists somewhere around here. And there's an article by Ken Pick over on freelancetraveller which describes a '77-'79ish campaign where they did something like that - ganged up drives to move big ships, allowed for missile bays and "bank lasers" and so forth. That sort of thing strikes me as valid Proto-Travellerism, especially if it's not overused and pretty much stays in the astropolitical realm of things.
 
rob, whatever happened to those maps you made of a smaller Imperium - the ones where sectors were reduced to quadrants?

I actually went back and found these posts, and have been thinking about them. Having Vland and Sylea mashed together sort of lends itself to 'compressing' groups of sectors down into one.

I can programmatically cut and paste subsectors now, so I can create Frankenstein sectors this way.

Would the Spinward Marches be preserved, or would it be altered to trailing?

Code:
.........|.........|.      ..|.........
.........|...     .|..      .|.........
.........|...     .|..      .|.........
.........|.........|...     .|.........
---------------------------------------
.........|.........|.V..  ...|.........
..S-M....|.. .     |....  ...|.........
.........|.        |   .C.S..|.........
.........|        .|.........|.........
---------------------------------------
........ |        .|.........|.........
........ |    .    |.........|.........
........ |         |.........|.........
.......  |         |.........|.........

A: Gvurrdon
B: Provekki: Tuglikki A, B, E, F, I, J, M, N, Provence C, D G, H, K, L, O, P
C: Vlandhorn: Vland M, Windhorn everything else.
D: Meshan
E: Spinward Marches
F: Deneb Corridor: Deneb A, E, I, P, Corridor B, C, D, F, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, O, Gushemege P.
G: Capital: Vland A, Core B-P.  Dagudashaag?  Gushemege?  Lishun?
H: Lashar: Lishun, Antares, Fornost?
I: Trojan Reaches
J: Reft
K: Zelishagar: Zarushagar, Ilelish
L: Diassilia: Diaspora, Massilia
 
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