Proto-Traveller

[robject]

But I suspect it allows acts of unabashed heroism to have greater effect than a brooding Calvinist perspective might.

"Sometimes, the orcs win."

 

[mike wightman]

Nah, Spaceman Spiff always wins...

ohh - that Calvin

(by the way I am aware of why Calvin from the Calvin and Hobbes strip has the name Calvin before some pedant posts a reply explaining why )

Would I get away with calling it the mirror universe third Imperium?

 

[Timerover51]

"Sometimes, the orcs win."

Question is, is the player character one of the orcs?

 

[salochin999]

My proto-Traveller universe is built from the descriptions in CT adventures 1-3. My Imperium is much less benevolent and a much darker place than the third Imperium morphed into.

Colonists being shipped from the interior to colonise new worlds on the frontier - often against their will.

INI kidnapping psionic races from within and beyond the Imperium for secret research projects.

Megacorporations buying proxy governments in order to exploit whole systems.

The subsector dukes IMPTU will sponsor 'trade wars' and planetary unrest/dissent in rival subsectors in order to jockey for the position of sector duke, meanwhile the sector duke happily encourages this rivalry in order to maintain his/her status.

That's close to my view as well except I have it that the Imperium is so big with so many branches that there are both very good and very bad elements within it so the scout service in a particular sub-sector might be running a "prime directive" like interdiction on a backwards world while the local Duke is trying to get it overturned so his family corporation can strip mine it.

 

[salochin999]

I've been rewatching Blake's 7 recently and the I think B7's Federation would give anyone a nice feel of a more corrupt Imperium.

This isn't your Star Trek Federation. Slave labour, political authoritarianism, but with high-stakes manoeuvrings among senior political/military leaders, populations on hi-tech worlds kept in line through tranquillisers in the air and water... that kind of thing.

I would love to do a B7 campaign using CT. The worlds as seen in the programme would fit CT worldgen quite nicely - there seem to be a lot of places with a few hundred or a few thousand inhabitants at quite low tech levels.

A Series 4 type setting would be perfect - the PCs are outlaw crew of a pretty ordinary ship (Scorpio rather than Liberator) out beyond the Federation's shrunken borders (post-alien invasion), trying to throw a spanner in the works of / keep one step ahead of the Federation's Pacification Programme as it rolls across the subsector, while pulling off some grand larceny on the side. There is even a baked-in reason to keep moving on from world to world.

Most of the B7 crew were Others (Vila needs Electronics-4 and some Streetwise; Avon needs Computers-4 plus some Electronics and maybe Forgery; Gan, Brawling and Medic); Scout could get reskinned as Smuggler for Jenna (Pilot, Navigation); Army could get redone as Guerrilla for Blake (he needs plenty of Leader, some Tactics and some gun skills). Tarrant would be straight-up Navy.

The more I think about it, the more Classic Traveller looks like Blake's 7: the RPG - except B7 came out a year later!

I need to rewatch that.

 

[Timerover51]

That's close to my view as well except I have it that the Imperium is so big with so many branches that there are both very good and very bad elements within it so the scout service in a particular sub-sector might be running a "prime directive" like interdiction on a backwards world while the local Duke is trying to get it overturned so his family corporation can strip mine it.

Definitely a Calvin Universe. The older I get, the more I conclude that he was correct in his view of humanity.

 

[WistfulD]

I need to rewatch that.

It so needs to be revisited as well. Maybe a reboot, maybe a movie, maybe a RPG.

Edit: I am still waiting.

New Info: http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieln...chives-blakes-7-remake-for-xbox-live-rumored/

 

[Frankymole]

I concur, mostly.

Until I got Supplement 8 (LD A-M), I figured the Imperium was about 8 sectors... the monster empire... and of those, 3 were clearly not full sectors...

Then again, at the time, I had 6 sectors, and 4 of them connected. Two of those four were extra-imperial.

A small imperium is not a bad thing. Just, My imperium needs to have at least 4 sectors where it has borders, and one of them needs to be the Spinward Marches.

The feudal nature of the Imperium means it's a loose collection of fiefdoms; thus, despite nominally being one big Empire, it's actually a load of noble's power-bases and open to plenty of friction, cross-purposes, and overlapping confusions of relatively remote powers with local different directions and political hues. And then you get down to world level (or worlds plus a few type 6 government colonies they own)... Just one of these local Dukes or Archduke's realms would be not so different from the Adventure 1-3 "small Imperium" - and the rest is out of the frame.

It's not surprising the Rebellion in MT splintered the Imperium so easily, given that it was never one amorphous mas sin the first place. What is perhaps more surprising is that the rebel factions were so large.

 

[Frankymole]

The more I think about it, the more Classic Traveller looks like Blake's 7: the RPG - except B7 came out a year later!

Then again... http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php...-Playing-Game-reviewed-by-Sean-A-Curtin-(4-4)

 

[creativehum]

The feudal nature of the Imperium means it's a loose collection of fiefdoms; thus, despite nominally being one big Empire, it's actually a load of noble's power-bases and open to plenty of friction, cross-purposes, and overlapping confusions of relatively remote powers with local different directions and political hues.

You know, I would have assume this to be the case. But whenever I read later materials about the 3I, it never seemed to have all the "friction, cross-purposes, and overlapping confusions" you mention.

Admittedly, this would show up, as you say, at the local level. But, again, most of the material seems always to reassure me that everything is pretty much working just fine.

And then you get down to world level (or worlds plus a few type 6 government colonies they own)... Just one of these local Dukes or Archduke's realms would be not so different from the Adventure 1-3 "small Imperium" - and the rest is out of the frame.

This is is why I think, if one is actually going to play the game as an RPG hobby and not use it as a "Third Imperium as a Model Train" hobby, the Referee is better off focusing on just a subsector or two and saying, "Right here, this is the interesting stuff. I have to not assume there' anything interesting happening elsewhere and focus on the situations, conflicts, and adventures that can happen right here."

 

[rancke]

The feudal nature of the Imperium means it's a loose collection of fiefdoms; thus, despite nominally being one big Empire, it's actually a load of noble's power-bases and open to plenty of friction, cross-purposes, and overlapping confusions of relatively remote powers with local different directions and political hues. And then you get down to world level (or worlds plus a few type 6 government colonies they own)... Just one of these local Dukes or Archduke's realms would be not so different from the Adventure 1-3 "small Imperium" - and the rest is out of the frame.

That's not how the Imperium has been described. Its feudal nature is very low-key, actually.

It's not surprising the Rebellion in MT splintered the Imperium so easily, given that it was never one amorphous mas sin the first place. What is perhaps more surprising is that the rebel factions were so large.

It fractured, but it didn't splinter. No one below the level of sector duke struck out on their own. The subsector dukes all clove to their faction leaders, one set of dukes to one astrographically coherent faction.


Hans

 

[aramis]

That's not how the Imperium has been described. Its feudal nature is very low-key, actually.


It fractured, but it didn't splinter. No one below the level of sector duke struck out on their own. The subsector dukes all clove to their faction leaders, one set of dukes to one astrographically coherent faction.


Hans

It doesn't say that at all... What it does says is that the core of each faction-region stuck with their faction leader, but the maps clearly show some intensive war subsectors not on the front lines between factions... and large portions which are not part of any faction by 1122. (Hard Times [HT], pages 11 & 17) Including most of Lishun, which is outside any named faction by 1122...

The thing is, with the Strephonian reforms following the 5FW, he Archdukes gained back authority over the Navy... as did the sector dukes. (MT RbSB, p 28.) Which means that, in the absence of an order otherwise, the archdukes were the actual competent legal authority.

And, note: The moot never confirms Lucan... so, anyone who felt he was a nut had an excuse to ignore his orders: He's not the emperor. Even if Dulinor isn't, Lucan is emperor de facto, but not de jure, and on paper lacks the authority to give the orders he gives. (His initial orders arrive before the moot can meet - he's functioning as regent of the imperium and heir apparent...)

Excepting, of course, Norris' self-promotion. Brzk doen't hold much - his safe isn't even a full 4 subsectors by 1124.

Most of several sectors are "wilds" by 1122... Half of Deneb, almost all of the imperial portion of Corridor, Most of Lishun, Zarushagar, Diaspora, Solomani Rim, and Ley. Imperial portions of the Old Expanses are half wilds, half Sol Confed Frontiers. (HT, p 11)

And not all the wilds were war zones, either.

What can be said clearly from the maps and text in those two books is that the Navy largely followed the faction leaders of their regions, and the navy ensured the high pops in the future safes either capitulated or died.

 

[creativehum]

The feudal nature of the Imperium means it's a loose collection of fiefdoms; thus, despite nominally being one big Empire, it's actually a load of noble's power-bases and open to plenty of friction, cross-purposes, and overlapping confusions of relatively remote powers with local different directions and political hues. And then you get down to world level (or worlds plus a few type 6 government colonies they own)... Just one of these local Dukes or Archduke's realms would be not so different from the Adventure 1-3 "small Imperium" - and the rest is out of the frame.

That's not how the Imperium has been described. Its feudal nature is very low-key, actually...

Hans

The Imperium may never have been described that way. But the implied setting for Traveller play was described exactly that way in Books 1-5 and the early adventures. While the assumptions of a Traveller setting changed over time (because the Third Imperium became Traveller), up until 1981 all the material suggested "plenty of friction, cross-purposes, and overlapping confusions of relatively remote powers with local different directions and political hues."

Your point is well taken, however: for the sake of a Proto-Traveller setting, (i.e.:see start of thread and thread title), it makes sense to make sure the Imperium's feudalism is not low key but heightened. Doing so will create an environment that provides adventure and a fun place to play for Player Characters.

 

[rancke]

The Imperium may never have been described that way. But the implied setting for Traveller play was described exactly that way in Books 1-5 and the early adventures. While the assumptions of a Traveller setting changed over time (because the Third Imperium became Traveller), up until 1981 all the material suggested "plenty of friction, cross-purposes, and overlapping confusions of relatively remote powers with local different directions and political hues."

The very early rules and adventures could fit almost any interpretation. The placid nature of the Imperium (at the high level, that is) was nailed down with the two library data books. No interstellar government below the subsector level and subsectors synonymous with duchies spells no internecine interstellar warfare.

That doesn't make the Imperium dull. It just means that nobles use more subtle methods and strive for things other than territorial gain. And if you want territorial warfare, you just have to seek it on the surface of balkanized worlds.

But for interstellar territorial warfare you have to seek outside the Imperium in time or space.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

The Library Data supplements were the first major setting retcon to the politics and general feel to the setting IMHO.

LBB4 is completely compatible with the proto-Imperium, while HG1 and 2 start to change the technological paradigm and ship size, but it isn't until LD that we get a change to the political setting presented in the early adventures.

My biggest bugbear with LD is that it changed the Spinward Marches from a true frontier (unexplored space just a subsector away - see Leviathan) tp a region that has been settled for almost a thousand years - boring :CoW:

 

[creativehum]

The Library Data supplements were the first major setting retcon to the politics and general feel to the setting IMHO.

LBB4 is completely compatible with the proto-Imperium, while HG1 and 2 start to change the technological paradigm and ship size, but it isn't until LD that we get a change to the political setting presented in the early adventures.

My biggest bugbear with LD is that it changed the Spinward Marches from a true frontier (unexplored space just a subsector away - see Leviathan) tp a region that has been settled for almost a thousand years - boring :CoW:

And the first Library Data Supplement was published in 1981. Which was my point in my post a couple of posts back: 1981 was the year the implied setting for Traveller changed.

The first four years of Traveller's materials certainly could be used to create the Placid Imperium. But one would also have to blow-off so many details sewn into the books and implied setting (pirates, mercenary cruisers, mercenary troops, the introductions to both Book 4 and 5 which make it clear the remote centralized government has little effective control over the implied frontier setting, the statement in Book 2 that "scheduled starship service is rarely available" (contrasted with later material that compared starports to modern day airports), merchants armed with heavy weapons, scout ships one would be used for scouting -- not already having scouted everything, desperate passengers willing to risk death in low berth to travel to new worlds, and so on).

Again, one can smooth out all the rough edges of the implied frontier. But at least I'd be hard pressed to have imagined the Third Imperium is what would have grown out of the material of those first four years.

 

[rancke]

The first four years of Traveller's materials certainly could be used to create the Placid Imperium. But one would also have to blow-off so many details sewn into the books and implied setting (pirates, mercenary cruisers, mercenary troops, the introductions to both Book 4 and 5 which make it clear the remote centralized government has little effective control over the implied frontier setting, the statement in Book 2 that "scheduled starship service is rarely available" (contrasted with later material that compared star ports to modern day airports), merchants armed with heavy weapons, scout ships one would be used for scouting -- not already having scouted everything, and so on).

A lot of those details contradicts the implied background (frequency of populations and frequency of class A starports) and would blow themselves off as soon as anyone took a look at how many ships a high-population world can afford, even if the universe remained small-ship. Others show up quite early in JTAS articles.


Hans

 

[creativehum]

A lot of those details contradicts the implied background (frequency of populations and frequency of class A starports) and would blow themselves off as soon as anyone took a look at how many ships a high-population world can afford, even if the universe remained small-ship. Others show up quite early in JTAS articles.


Hans

Given what you write above, there are two paths:

1. Rework the details so one can have the implied setting
2. Or stick with the details and blow off the implied setting

I, and many others, are quite content to rework things to keep the implied setting -- because that's what we liked, and that's what we want.

That said, I still find no reason to fall into despair over the details blowing off the implied setting the way you do. The mean population roll with Book 3 produces a population of hundreds of thousands of people.

Population Roll 2D-2
0 No inhabitants.
1 Tens of inhabitants.
2 Hundreds of inhabitants.
3 Thousands of inhabitants.
4 Tens of thousands.
5 Hundreds of thousands.
6 Millions of inhabitants.
7 Tens of millions.
8 Hundreds of millions.
9 Billions of inhabitants.
A Tens of billions.

3% of the worlds will have tens of billions of people.
5% will have a population of billions
89% of the worlds will have populations capped at hundreds of millions or less.

Still 8% of those worlds will will have populations in the billions and tens of billions. That's a lot. But even then, you and I diverge on key issues. Here's one:

You assume that if a world has a population in the billions it will have an A class starport. You have stated that if the rules state otherwise, the rules are "wrong."

But here's the thing. The rules decouple the class of starport from the population. One can have a planet of billions of people and have D class world.

Now, I'm not trying to sell you on anything here. I don't expect you to buy anything I'm about to pitch. But here's the deal:

That world with billions of people could be a horrible disaster. It might be poverty stricken. It might be torn apart by an endless religious war. it might have cultural beliefs the preclude it from wanting to trade with offworlders. Its starport might have been destroyed by ships from another interstellar government that didn't want a world of tens of billions of people having an A class starport.

I'm certain I could go on for a while.

Now, none these ideas work within the context of the Third Imperium. Because I'm not trying to build the Third Imperium.

The implied setting of the first four years of Traveller material assume strife, violence, and danger. (The first few pages of Book 2 are only about the things that go WRONG in space travel)

From what I've read of your posts, you seem to assume that if things can work out well for stability, prosperity, and safety, they will. And, as far as I can tell, the folks who who built the Third Imperium along with you assumed the same.

You look at a world with a high population and high tech and ask, "How can it not have an A class starport?"

I look at the same situation and ask, "Awesome, what's unique and compelling situation on this world that makes it not have an A class starport?"

And, of course, the inverse is true: Why are A class starports around worlds with low populations. You see a flaw. I see possibilities in a science fiction setting.

So, even though there will be high population worlds, and high tech worlds, and A class starports... the stars will only align to make these worlds starship production engines a fraction of the time. And when they do... well, that's where a lot of ships come from!

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for for looking at the game the way you do. (A courtesy, I will now point out, you don't allow other people.) But certainly it is one way of looking at the World Creation results. And, of course, it is exactly the way the rules are supposed to be used.

I really don't know what else to say on the matter at this point.

But now, a question: If you could point me to the early JTAS articles you mentioned, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm very interested in tracking them down. I did a quick scan of the early issues earlier and am not seeing, I think, what you're seeing. But I am curious, honestly, to follow up on your point.

 

[mike wightman]

In addition to the above excellent post I would like to add this.

There is only so much lanthanum and only so many zuchai crystals - you can not build more starships than you can build jump drives.

Put another way - I keep seeing people use the large population planets can afford a huge number of ships argument to shoot down the small ship, low trade volume nature of the proto-Imperium. It is easy enough to have an unobtainium limitation on the number of jump drives a world can construct.

 

[creativehum]

There is only so much lanthanum and only so many zuchai crystals - you can not build more starships than you can build jump drives.

Put another way - I keep seeing people use the large population planets can afford a huge number of ships argument to shoot down the small ship, low trade volume nature of the proto-Imperium. It is easy enough to have an unobtainium limitation on the number of jump drives a world can construct.

Absolutely. Limited resources and the striving for resources are, of course, sewn into the implied setting of Books 1-3. Characters running a Trader never have enough money for payments! Getting the right kind of fuel is a problem! And so on.

And, again, this is all good stuff. Limited resources means conflict, problems, adventure. This is the stuff that I expected when I first read the LBBs out of the boxed set years ago.