Published Design Cost MCr

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon PDT all,

Before getting the recap for this topic I want thank Piper again for running me through Adventure 5's design and construction checklist and apologize for going off topic a little bit.

To recap this topic was to help me figure out why I rarely ever matched a published design's final cost shown on the right hand side of the first line using the High Guard Statistics format.

Both Book 2 Starships and Book 5 HG2 provided information on calculating an architect's design fee and how to discount the price on hulls constructed after the first one.

The cost of the hull and the installed components are combine together for the base cost of the hull.

On Adventure 5 TCS page 15 the cost of the Regal, per the HG statistics format is MCr62,243.

The text for the Regal, also on page, mentions the architect's fee and then gives the total cost being MCr63343.

The design example for the Gnat on page 22 adds the architect's fee to the base cost and the result is the cost of a single unit.

If the process is right then the cost shown in the ship's statistics is Hull + Components + Architect's fee.

Unfortunately, I'm still not sure how the discount is calculated for any units built after the first one.

Is the discount price calculated using:

(Hull + components) x discount % or

(Hull + components + architect's fee) x discount %

Thank you again for the help.

 

[aramis]

Afternoon PDT all,

Before getting the recap for this topic I want thank Piper again for running me through Adventure 5's design and construction checklist and apologize for going off topic a little bit.

To recap this topic was to help me figure out why I rarely ever matched a published design's final cost shown on the right hand side of the first line using the High Guard Statistics format.

Both Book 2 Starships and Book 5 HG2 provided information on calculating an architect's design fee and how to discount the price on hulls constructed after the first one.

The cost of the hull and the installed components are combine together for the base cost of the hull.

On Adventure 5 TCS page 15 the cost of the Regal, per the HG statistics format is MCr62,243.

The text for the Regal, also on page, mentions the architect's fee and then gives the total cost being MCr63343.

The design example for the Gnat on page 22 adds the architect's fee to the base cost and the result is the cost of a single unit.

If the process is right then the cost shown in the ship's statistics is Hull + Components + Architect's fee.

Unfortunately, I'm still not sure how the discount is calculated for any units built after the first one.

Is the discount price calculated using:

(Hull + components) x discount % or

(Hull + components + architect's fee) x discount %

Thank you again for the help.

As I've said before, the Architech's Fee is NOT PART OF THE COST OF THE SHIP.
It's a separate fee, paid only ever once for a given set of plans.

 

[Piper]

On Adventure 5 TCS page 15 the cost of the Regal, per the HG statistics format is MCr62,243.

The text for the Regal, also on page, mentions the architect's fee and then gives the total cost being MCr63343.

The costing formula for the FIRST ship in a class is Hull + components + architect's fee.

For each ship of the same class after the first the costing formula is (Hull + components) x discount %

The plans already exist so they don't need to be purchased again.

The Regal, as the first of a new class costs MCr63,343. The second and all subsequent ships built on this design cost (the hull + components cost) * 80% for a final price of MCr49,794.4.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Aramis,

Thank you for the reply, unfortunately I still have not been provided with any sources that support the information provided here that neither the architect's fee or the discount are used to determine the MCr listed in HG2 statistics.

As I've said before, the Architech's Fee is NOT PART OF THE COST OF THE SHIP.
It's a separate fee, paid only ever once for a given set of plans.

The statistics as far as I know are for the first unit designed not for any follow-on units.

How do figure that the architect's fee is not part of the ship's cost since the fee is figured for the completed hull and components. The purchaser pays the shipyard to build the ship and then has to pay the architect's fee.

Hire architect to draw plans for new design for a fee equal to Completed ship Cost x 0.01. This means the architect has to wait for the hull to be completed before getting paid.

Shipyard builds the ship for MCr100 the purchaser has to pay the architect a fee of MCr100 x 0.01 = MCr1. The purchaser pays the shipyard MCr100 and also pays the architect a fee of MCr1 the grand total is MCr101 to get the ship from a dream to reality.

When I buy a new car I pay more than just the sticker price one of the fees is for licensing.

Per HG2 there is an 80% discount on hulls built after the first one since the shipyard has figured out to build them and of course the plans can be purchased Cr100.

Please let me know how the HG2 Ship Statistic MCr is determined in a simple format that I can understand, since I have figured this out yet.

 

[Piper]

Thank you for the reply, unfortunately I still have not been provided with any sources that support the information provided here that neither the architect's fee or the discount are used to determine the MCr listed in HG2 statistics.

Book 2 (1977 edition) Starship Design, p. 9 discusses the purchase and use of plans (paraphrase):

The starship design checklist is presented to a naval architect who then produces plans and specifications which are delivered upon receipt of his fee. Said plans are then brought to a shipyard for building. The costs are determined by the architect during the design process.

Beyond that, it's a common-sense issue. You go to an architect to have a house designed. You take the plans to a builder who then builds the house. If you want a second, identical house built, you don't go back to the architect.

 

[snrdg082102]

Eveniong Piper,

Thanks for coming to my aid once again.

Book 2 (1977 edition) Starship Design, p. 9 discusses the purchase and use of plans (paraphrase):

The starship design checklist is presented to a naval architect who then produces plans and specifications which are delivered upon receipt of his fee. Said plans are then brought to a shipyard for building. The costs are determined by the architect during the design process.

Beyond that, it's a common-sense issue. You go to an architect to have a house designed. You take the plans to a builder who then builds the house. If you want a second, identical house built, you don't go back to the architect.

Unfortunately, Book 2 1977 edition rules have been, as I've been clearly told when I quoted material from the Book 2 1977, replaced by the 1981 edition.

Technically, the first step in the design and construction process is to set a budget.

From that budget the purchaser pays the architect's fee and the shipyard building the ship. At the end of the job, hopefully, the ship's cost matches the budget or is under budget. Unfortunately, I have a tendency to go over the budget when I set one.

I've been doing more digging in Book 5 the Kinunir's statistics MCr does match the cost of just the hull and components. Checking the Consolidated CT Errata page 18 the total for the Kinunir's hull and components is MCR1335.4021 and the statistics MCr is 1201.8619.

The Kinunir's pinnace total cost for hull and component's is MCr21.0 the statistic MCr18.904.

Looking at the AHL corrections the statistic MCr is smaller than the hull and components.

In the Consolidated CT Errata the statistic MCr appears to be the discount price.

High Guard Shipyard (HGS) appears to list the hull and component cost for the statistic MCr. HGS also includes the architect's fee and cost in quantity.

So I'm right back where I started of not having a clue of how the statistic MCr is determined. Which means there is practically no way I can match a published design, even if my MCr matches everywhere else.

Thank you Piper and Aramis for trying to get me straightened out. If I were near each of you I'd be spring for a meal of purchasing, if I can, your favorite beverage.

 

[Piper]

Unfortunately, Book 2 1977 edition rules have been, as I've been clearly told when I quoted material from the Book 2 1977, replaced by the 1981 edition.

It says the same thing in more detail in The Traveller Book. And it's not so much a rule as a description of process.

The problem with using published designs to back-check rules is that, as you have seen, the published designs are often flawed.

Simplest answer here is to run your designs as custom builds, include the architect's fee as a separate line item and let whoever you're submitting it to figure out the discount pricing.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Piper,

It says the same thing in more detail in The Traveller Book. And it's not so much a rule as a description of process.

The problem with using published designs to back-check rules is that, as you have seen, the published designs are often flawed.

Simplest answer here is to run your designs as custom builds, include the architect's fee as a separate line item and let whoever you're submitting it to figure out the discount pricing.

Sadly, I don't have a copy of The Traveller Book, yet. That is one of the items on my wish list.

Unfortunately, I'm the type that tries to follow the process from start to finish. The finished product in the ship design and construction procedure includes calculating the architect's fee, quantity discount, and creating the HG Ship Statistics datasheet as accurately as possible. It seems that my accuracy varies a bit in places.

Here is what my squirrelly little mind thinks on the cost of a design.

The first hull is a custom design with a cost equal to the architect's fee + hull + components.

The second hull is a standard, well sort of, design with a cost equal to the cost of the plan purchased from the shipyard + hull + components

Three or more hulls are standard design with a cost equal to the cost of the plan purchased from the shipyard + hull + components - the quantity discount.

 

[aramis]

Evening Piper,



Sadly, I don't have a copy of The Traveller Book, yet. That is one of the items on my wish list.

Unfortunately, I'm the type that tries to follow the process from start to finish. The finished product in the ship design and construction procedure includes calculating the architect's fee, quantity discount, and creating the HG Ship Statistics datasheet as accurately as possible. It seems that my accuracy varies a bit in places.

Here is what my squirrelly little mind thinks on the cost of a design.

The first hull is a custom design with a cost equal to the architect's fee + hull + components.

The second hull is a standard, well sort of, design with a cost equal to the cost of the plan purchased from the shipyard + hull + components

Three or more hulls are standard design with a cost equal to the cost of the plan purchased from the shipyard + hull + components - the quantity discount.

The architecht's fee isn't part of ANY other calculations - it's included in the design sequence only because it's derived from the primary subtotal.
Paraphrasing the process...

Design your ship.
Figure out the total design cost, no architect fees, no discounts.
That's the "Base Cost."
Next, decide if it's a standard design or not.
— Standard design, the one-off price is 90% of base cost, and architect's fees are Cr100 (see book 2)
— Other book 2 designs, one-off price is 100% of base cost. Architect's fees are 1% of the base cost.
— Book 5 designs, one off price is 100% of base cost. Architect's fees are 1% of base cost. Additional copies in the same yard are 80% cost. They do not have a standard design equivalent.

One can make the assumption that Book 2 designs also can benefit from the 80% for additionals.

Note also: until the class ship is built, the discount for additional copies can't be taken.
Bk5 ('81), p.20: "Additional identical ships built following the initial ship in a class can be completed in 80% of the original time at 80% of the original construction cost." (color for emphasis added, text original.)

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Aramis,

Now this helps a lot and is simple enough that even I can understand. Also, the gremlins are at it again and have decided not allow the Quote button to work, but the quote button at the top of the window works. IF the Quote button was working I think the post number would be 487347.

The architect's fee isn't part of ANY other calculations - it's included in the design sequence only because it's derived from the primary subtotal.
Paraphrasing the process...

Design your ship.
Figure out the total design cost, no architect fees, no discounts.
That's the "Base Cost."

Technically, the preliminary step is to set the ship's design budget.

Unfortunately I'm one of those who frequently goes over the budget so I just put the hull together instead.

I've even tried setting budgets based on published designs in the tonnage class my design is going to be. So far I still manage to go over budget.

Next, decide if it's a standard design or not.
— Standard design, the one-off price is 90% of base cost, and architect's fees are Cr100 (see book 2)

Minor quibble and correction to one of my earlier postings on the Cr100 per Book 2

Small Craft page 17: There are eight standard designs available; each design plan is available for Cr100.

Standard Ship Design plans page 18: The following ships are standard designs available at almost any shipyard. Each description indicates the ship's performance and details of its design. Design plans for each are available for Cr100; prices shown reflect the 10% reduction in price normally allowed standard designs.

The minor quibble is that the Cr100 does not appear to me to be an architect's fee. My take is the per the standard ship design plans section the Cr100 paid for the deck plans goes to the shipyard.

— Other book 2 designs, one-off price is 100% of base cost. Architect's fees are 1% of the base cost.
— Book 5 designs, one off price is 100% of base cost. Architect's fees are 1% of base cost. Additional copies in the same yard are 80% cost. They do not have a standard design equivalent.

What I think you are saying is that the first, say, AHL design produced by a different shipyard does not get the 80% discount and has the full architect's fee calculated versus the Cr100 cost of the deck plans.

Technically, each unit after the first ship is a standard design. AHL class cruisers are, in my opinion, a standard design that over their service life had upgrades and down grades made to them. Building an AHL hull without the same basic components, like not having a spinal mount or any bay weapons, makes this a non-standard hull.

One can make the assumption that Book 2 designs also can benefit from the 80% for additional.

I've always considered the Book 2 10% cost reduction to be a discount price, but then again I'm probably in error here too.

Note also: until the class ship is built, the discount for additional copies can't be taken.
Bk5 ('81), p.20: "Additional identical ships built following the initial ship in a class can be completed in 80% of the original time at 80% of the original construction cost." (color for emphasis added, text original.)

I do follow the rule as written for any hulls after the first get 80% of the original construction cost and my apologies if I seemed to imply differently. My second hull cost over simplified example is how I see the process works technically.

Thank you for the help, however I'm still a bit hazy about the MCr shown in the HG Ship's Statistics layout.

Is the statistic MCr calculated using the 10% of the first hull's price or at 20% of the first hull's price, or at using 20% of the first hull price are to 10% reduction is applied?

 

[aramis]

You're making things harder on yourself by overthinking it.

The plans are the result of paying the architect - whether you're buying off the shelf (Cr100) or paying for custom plans (1%). And if your character has Naval Architect 1+ and a computer, they can create their own in 4 weeks for no cost.

Plans also are not part of what you fund with financing.

When you buy, you go to the bank with plans and a business plan. THEN, if approved, plunk down your 20% of the cost, and the bank the other 80%.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Aramis,

The web gremlins have found someone else to block the quote button.

You're making things harder on yourself by overthinking it.

The plans are the result of paying the architect - whether you're buying off the shelf (Cr100) or paying for custom plans (1%). And if your character has Naval Architect 1+ and a computer, they can create their own in 4 weeks for no cost.

Plans also are not part of what you fund with financing.

When you buy, you go to the bank with plans and a business plan. THEN, if approved, plunk down your 20% of the cost, and the bank the other 80%.

I cannot deny that more often than not I either over simplify some things or overthinking them.

I don't feel that I over thought the cost of design plans. Books 2 and 5 clearly state that the architect does custom plans. Standard plans are mentioned in conjunction with shipyards.

I'm going to have to generate a few characters that have naval architect and computer skills to side step the whole issue.

Does that mean when using the HG Statistic format the MCr should reflect the discount price on the assumption that the all the following ships are constructed at the same shipyard?

IIRC correctly one of the AHL sources mentions that the follow ships were built at different shipyards located in more than one sector.

Would they have to purchase the plans using the architect's fee or standard plans at Cr100?

 

[rancke]

You're making things harder on yourself by overthinking it.

The plans are the result of paying the architect - whether you're buying off the shelf (Cr100) or paying for custom plans (1%). And if your character has Naval Architect 1+ and a computer, they can create their own in 4 weeks for no cost.

Plans also are not part of what you fund with financing.

When you buy, you go to the bank with plans and a business plan. THEN, if approved, plunk down your 20% of the cost, and the bank the other 80%.

I agree with your logic 100%. When you're right, you're right.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

I agree with your logic 100%. When you're right, you're right.


Hans

Rancke and Aramis agree. Y'know, there's a passage in Nostradamus that can be interpreted as alluding to such an event.

 

[rancke]

Rancke and Aramis agree. Y'know, there's a passage in Nostradamus that can be interpreted as alluding to such an event.

It has happened before, you know.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Hans Rancke, Carlobrand, and Aramis,

With the help of Carlobrand I may have figured out my obsessive adherence of including the architect's fee in the ship's total cost and my reluctance to let the idea go stems from.

I have been thinking of the design and construction process as being one combined process which in my fuzzy little mind met that costs where combined as well. To be honest there was practically no thought about the process over the thought that "and" met add the results together.

Thank you Aramis for the continued efforts to get me to see I was way off the mark. Sorry about breaking so many sledge hammers.

No Carlobrand I think there has to be a third prominent member that has to agree with Hans and Aramis to measure up to Nostradamus.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

 

[aramis]

It has happened before, you know.


Hans

It happens rather often.

Now, when Hans, myself, Cryton, Robject and DonM all agree... There's your 5 horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Howdy Hans Rancke, Carlobrand, and Aramis,

With the help of Carlobrand I may have figured out my obsessive adherence of including the architect's fee in the ship's total cost and my reluctance to let the idea go stems from.

I have been thinking of the design and construction process as being one combined process which in my fuzzy little mind met that costs where combined as well. To be honest there was practically no thought about the process over the thought that "and" met add the results together.

Thank you Aramis for the continued efforts to get me to see I was way off the mark. Sorry about breaking so many sledge hammers.

No Carlobrand I think there has to be a third prominent member that has to agree with Hans and Aramis to measure up to Nostradamus.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

Oh, I quite with the sledgehammers decades ago. Solid rubber 5kg mauls, however...

The fundamental problem is that, as a set of rules, the two processes are one process and in a different order from what the character experiences.

Player sequence	Character Sequence
Player decides character needs ship	Character decides he needs ship
Player designs ship	Character tells Architect his requirements
Player figures costs
Player deducts architect's fees (for copy or for new plan)	Character waits for plans Architect either copies plans or designs ship
	Character pays for the plans
Player and GM haggle about financing †	Character goes to bank †
	Character wheedles with loan officer t
	Character convinces loan officer § †
Player marks off 20% down payment —or— Player marks off whole purchase price	Character goes to yard
	Character presents plans to Yard
	Yard and Character haggle a bit about schedules and colors
	Character pays 20% down
	Character puts forward loan paperwork —or— puts remaining 80% into escrow
Campaign time passes	campaign time passes
	Character gets test flight prior to acceptance
	Character Accepts ship
	Bank pays yard
PC now has ship, Player notes this	Character gets title and keys

[tc=2]† Skipped if full cash being paid
§ If the loan officer isn't convinced, it may take some additional adventuring...[/tc]

 

[snrdg082102]

The gremlins are at it again for the quote button, but I'm able to use the quote icon, copy and paste.

Oh, I quite with the sledgehammers decades ago. Solid rubber 5kg mauls, however...

Okay, sorry about putting so many gouges in the surfaces of the mauls.

 

[aramis]

The gremlins are at it again for the quote button, but I'm able to use the quote icon, copy and paste.



Okay, sorry about putting so many gouges in the surfaces of the mauls.

It sounds like your browser is suffering from a bad install.

for your edification...

The format for the quote tag
[quote] produces just the boxed text
[quote=Username] attributes the text to user Username
[QUOTE="snrdg082102, post: 487450, member: 1018"] attributes the text to user snrdg082102 and links to post 487450

You can find post numbers under the number in the post's black bar header.
it's buried in the url. Taken from the above post, under the "#38":

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=487450&postcount=38

 

[snrdg082102]

Thank you Aramis,

I've tried a couple of re-installs from ground zone by downloading from the web site and saving to the desktop or saving the browser program to a separate media. So far the problem continues to show up. I've run a couple of troubleshooting applications which say there aren't any problems.

After the service I got a degree in computers to figure out why they messed with me, the training just gave the computer more ways to pick on me.

It sounds like your browser is suffering from a bad install.

for your edification...

The format for the quote tag
[quote] produces just the boxed text
[quote=Username] attributes the text to user Username
[QUOTE="snrdg082102, post: 487450, member: 1018"] attributes the text to user snrdg082102 and links to post 487450

You can find post numbers under the number in the post's black bar header.
it's buried in the url. Taken from the above post, under the "#38":

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=487450&postcount=38