Question about Task System

[Blue Ghost]

Many apologies for posting this here, but I've lost track of the thread regarding the CT task system. And I have a question regarding its publication.

I think it was Aramis who pointed out that the official CT task system was later published in a JTAS (I'm guessing as an addendum). There were those of us who didn't have the money to buy things like JTAS for Traveller or SJ Games Autoduel Quarterly and what not. So our group missed out, and instead tended to use the 8+ combat roll for all tasks (or rolling under one of your physical attributes). So we didn't get word of a task system, well, until now (MT not withstanding).

I'm curious though, was there more than one printing of the basic LBBs? And if so, did they include a rewrite with the basic CT task system in mind?

 

[Brandon C]

Grand Survey, a very late CT book by DGP, included a task system on page two. This was essentially the same system as what MT used.I

A more simple system is available as a free PDF from BITS.

 

[mike wightman]

There was no CT task system.

There was a saving throw system built into skill use that was expanded upon in The Traveller Adventure (I have copied the relevant text into a word document and use it as the basis for my current Traveller saving throw resolution system).

The throws given in the skill descriptions of LBB:1 are just a guide for the referee, the fuller version outlined in TTA boils down to:

roll 2D6 and get equal to or higher then a target number the referee makes up
or occasionally
roll 2D6 and get equal to or less than a target number the ref makes up.

+DMs accrue due to skill level (each skill level can be worth anywhere from +1 to +4), favourable characteristics, special tools etc
-DMs accrue due to no relevant skill, low characteristics, no specialist tools, environmental conditions etc.

In The Traveller Adventure it is mentioned that if a referee can not decide on a target number then they can roll 2D6 to generate the target number.

There are also characteristic throws where you have to roll equal to or less than your characteristic on 2D or 3D depending on difficulty.

DGP produced the CT task system that would be later adopted to MegaTraveller and Traveller:2300, although the latter changed the die roll to 1D10 rather than 2D6, the rest of the system was almost the same. It was included in every issue of DGP's Traveller Digest magazine and also in the CT supplements they produced eg Grand Census and Grand Survey.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Each skill had its own procedure for throwing dice. Kind of like how GURPS still handles its skills to this day.

 

[LiNeNoiSe]

The Universal Task Profile was published in Challenge #29 - A Decade of Traveller, pp 23-26. It was presented as a sort of preview to MegaTraveller. It looks to be the same as the one in TD. They apparently ran CT with it for two years.

 

[aramis]

The Universal Task Profile was published in Challenge #29 - A Decade of Traveller, pp 23-26. It was presented as a sort of preview to MegaTraveller. It looks to be the same as the one in TD. They apparently ran CT with it for two years.

It was published well before that, in DGP's Traveller's Digest. I know at least as far back as Issue 8, and I believe it was earlier.

Further, it was used in Traveller:2300, as well, also before MT's release.

 

[creativehum]

Following up Mike's post:

The Traveller Adventure (1983) provides the structure (such as it is) for playing Classic Traveller. The passage from the Traveller Adventure can be found here.

Mike clearly lays out the system. Shawn's summation is incorrect in that he reads each skill as having its own system. Rather, each skill has its own applicable Throws and DMs. But the undergirding structure, as defined by Mike, remains the same in each case.

Yes, the system is improvisatory and seat-of-the-pants. For some that is a bug, for others a feature. (For me, a feature.)

But what I think Blue Ghost is looking for (at least its first appearance) is the Universal Task Profile (though it didn't have that name yet) in The Travellers Digest Issue #1, published in 1985, eight years after Traveller first game out, and two years after The Traveller Adventure set down how to use the original Traveller rules in the toolkit fashion as intended.

The system is presented as "an alternative to the 'seat of the pants' method of generating rolls for tasks" in previous Traveller material. The was DGP's house system, and, as noted above, was used in The Travellers Digest, adventures they wrote, and finally refined in MegaTraveller.

So, Blue Ghost, if you have a copy of MegaTraveller, you should be good.

That said, the fact that the DGP's task system came later doesn't, in my view, make it better than the original playstyle of the rules -- simply different. I find the Universal Task Profile too futzy for my taste and much prefer the more improvisational approach of the original rules. Tastes will, of course, vary on this matter.

 

[Supplement Four]

I find the Universal Task Profile too futzy for my taste and much prefer the more improvisational approach of the original rules. Tastes will, of course, vary on this matter.

I actually love the UTP. I think it's a work of art. It's a well designed, well thought out task system.

But, it's not my preference, and I don't use it for my CT games.

I love the original method of rolling tasks provided in CT. Either task throws that are provided in the rules, or whatever the Ref decides is appropriate for the moment.

This allows the Ref to customize a task. To make it different. To make it specifically for a particular task.

Task systems, by definition, standardize a task. For example, with the UTP, skills only provide +1 per skill level, no matter what skill is being used. Attributes provide +0, +1, +2, or +3 on a standardized scale.

With the original CT method, the Ref can either take a hint from a task that is printed in the game, or he can decide how best to attempt a task.

How appropriate is experience to a task vs. a character's attributes? Should a task get +1 per skill level, +2 per skill level, +4 per skill level?

In the Zero-G roll under the Vacc Suit skill in the book, a character must roll 10+, but he gets +4 per level of Vacc Suit skill.

That makes a lot of sense to me. Vacc Suit skills is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to keeping yourself under control in a Zero-G environment. The +4 per level means Vacc Suit-2 is what is needed to succeed 100% of the time. Yes, personal coordination in the form of DEX can also provide a modifier, but this throw is really about Vacc Suit expertise.

OTOH, there's the roll to revive a character from low berth. That's a 5+ roll with a +1 DM if the operator has Medical-2 or higher. Here, we have an automated system that has little influence from skill and no influence at all from the operator's stats.

You don't get that kind of separate detail when you use a standardized task system. I like the customization, a lot.

Others prefer the standardization of a task system.

 

[creativehum]

... many solid statements...

I concur.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Thanks. I was curious there was ever a second printing of the original LBBs that had the updated rule.

I vaguely remember some discussion about a lack of a "saving throw" way back in 80 in one of the local game stores. We used the combat roll for most stuff, and tossed in "referee's choice" DMs. I didn't buy "The Traveller Adventure" until ... a couple years or more after it hit the shelves, but even then I saw it as a huge campaign adventure book, and not really one with pertinent rules.

Oh well. Thanks again for the replies.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Thanks. I was curious there was ever a second printing of the original LBBs that had the updated rule.

I vaguely remember some discussion about a lack of a "saving throw" way back in 80 in one of the local game stores. We used the combat roll for most stuff, and tossed in "referee's choice" DMs. I didn't buy "The Traveller Adventure" until ... a couple years or more after it hit the shelves, but even then I saw it as a huge campaign adventure book, and not really one with pertinent rules.

Oh well. Thanks again for the replies.

Saving throws were in there. Just not called saving throws is all.

 

[creativehum]

"The Traveller Adventure"... even then I saw it as a huge campaign adventure book, and not really one with pertinent rules.

Without doubt, it was an unfortunate place to bury them.

As for this:

I was curious there was ever a second printing of the original LBBs that had the updated rule.

My own thinking that the matter was actually addressed in the original 1977 printing of the rules.

Skills and the Referee: It is impossible for any table of information to cover all aspects of every potential situation, and the above listing is by no means complete in its coverage of the effects of skills. This is where the referee becomes an important part of the game process. The above listing of skills and game effects must necessarily be taken as a guide, and followed, altered, or ignored as the actual situation dictates.

This passage is found at the end of the skill descriptions (p. 20) and lays out exactly how the game is played: The Referee comes up with Throws as required. He does this by applying all the methods and tools included in Books 1, 2, and 3: Create a Throw, apply DMs based on expertise, equipment, and high or low characteristics, as well as any other factors that seem pertinent.

The passage is removed from every other edition of the game. A pity in my view. It leaves the application of the game pieces a kind of mystery.

Two paragraphs further down we find this passage:

In order to be consistent (and a consistent universe makes the game both fun and interesting), the referee has a responsibility to record the throws and DMs he creates, and to note (perhaps by penciling in) any throws he alters from those given in these books.

I believe this is why the formatting of the skill descriptions is done with all that white space: it is there for the Referee to make notes and record DMs as he builds out his setting and the "logic" of it through play.

As for the term Saving Throw, it is in both the 1977 and 1981 edition of Traveller Book 1:

Saving Throw (also called Throw): That dice roll required to achieve a stated effect. If only a number is stated, it must be rolled exactly. A number followed by a plus (such as 8+) indicates that that number or greater must be rolled. Similarly, a number followed by a minus (such as 3–) indicates that that number or less must be rolled.

Saving Throws are a concept taken from war games, as most things in early RPGs. I know I'm not saying anything surprising with that statement, but I'm leading to another point). Here's a link to an example of text referencing them from Don Featherstone's War Games. Like the Saving Throws of Featherstone's games, some Throws are hardcoded in the book, but others would be constructed on the fly as new and unique circumstances arrived.

This loosey-goosey nature of play driven by a Referee to impartially adjudicate results was very much part of the war game culture of the 1970s... but isn't in vogue today.

I bring all this up, Blue Ghost, only to say that the rules were written in a specific time and for a specific gaming culture that were used to Saving Throws and Referee-driven adjudication. So the rules actually are right there as written. But for many of us, including myself, couldn't see them or how to use them because we were not part of the referee-driven war game culture.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Okay, thanks. I was just curious. I remember being frustrated at having to "wing it", but we had fun adventuring all the same

Going hand to hand with a giant lion guarding the inside of the Kinunir, was one of the great "wing it Ref" feats of GMing from way back when, as we had other non-combat skills come into play.

I was curious. Curiosity somewhat satiated. Many thanks again.

*EDIT*

I bring all this up, Blue Ghost, only to say that the rules were written in a specific time and for a specific gaming culture that were used to Saving Throws and Referee-driven adjudication. So the rules actually are right there as written. But for many of us, including myself, couldn't see them or how to use them because we were not part of the referee-driven war game culture.

I'll add that I was there in the 70s. I was pretty young, but I was just entering gaming, and Traveller, for my money, was the only RP that didn't have a D&Dish like game mechanic. I still enjoyed it though.

 

[Supplement Four]

I didn't buy "The Traveller Adventure" until ... a couple years or more after it hit the shelves, but even then I saw it as a huge campaign adventure book, and not really one with pertinent rules..

There are similar sections about creating "throws" (though not as extensive) in various GDW adventures.

 

[Blue Ghost]

There are similar sections about creating "throws" (though not as extensive) in various GDW adventures.

I beg to differ. I think Night of Conquest and Divine Intervention may have had one specific task roll, but I don't recall anything else.

 

[Supplement Four]

I beg to differ. I think Night of Conquest and Divine Intervention may have had one specific task roll, but I don't recall anything else.

I will call your differ and raise you one differ!

Look no farther, my good sir, than Adventure 1 - The Kinunir. See page 2, bottom half of the page, under Die Rolling Conventions.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I see your combination White Crane and Drunken Monkey Traveller-do is as good mine!

*insert cheesy cool Kung Fu theatre music*

For what it's worth, I never ran Kinunir. I think a couple of my friends did.