Do you mean the Terran Trade Authority?
Rare Earths and Interstellar High Tech
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
Do you mean the Terran Trade Authority?
The Traveller Adventure actually
lostscout5
SOC-12
The film the wild geese came out first. I think the books they were based on did as well. I know the wild geese was based on a real incident. Not sure about the dogs of war.
Yeah, I'm not sure about "The Dogs of War" either, and I heard that "The Wild Geese" was based on a RW incident.
Note about "The Wild Geese" is that there's ample use of chemical weapons to kill sleeping soldiers. Nasty stuff.
*EDIT*
I'd also like to add that there's the obvious defacto racism I those films. And by that racism is not pushed as an agenda or ideology, but it shows companies in North America and Europe, ostensibly run by white corporate heads, marauding resources found in the African states.
Science fiction is supposed to be about looking at those problems and finding a way of addressing social rifts. Ergo these films are bit of cold water in the face of idealism verse what is, or in our case, what might be; i.e. maybe Vilani companies raiding poor Vargr borders worlds, ergo the rise of the Vargr corsair or some other reaction.
Note about "The Wild Geese" is that there's ample use of chemical weapons to kill sleeping soldiers. Nasty stuff.
*EDIT*
I'd also like to add that there's the obvious defacto racism I those films. And by that racism is not pushed as an agenda or ideology, but it shows companies in North America and Europe, ostensibly run by white corporate heads, marauding resources found in the African states.
Science fiction is supposed to be about looking at those problems and finding a way of addressing social rifts. Ergo these films are bit of cold water in the face of idealism verse what is, or in our case, what might be; i.e. maybe Vilani companies raiding poor Vargr borders worlds, ergo the rise of the Vargr corsair or some other reaction.
Last edited:
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Sigh - I specifically noted that I was speaking about the NORMAL trade - and specifically mentioned that any lots the PCs ran across would be illegal - which is pretty much exactly what you said.
So you CONFIRMED my statement, after all!
Note the last sentence:
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Blackbat I'd say you are misapplying my example- it's about dirty deals and misdirection, the fact that a large corp sources from conflict or slavish conditions does not make it inherently illegal, nor that a legal market has entirely legal sources.
Either way, the PCs could get their hands on items in such a market without fullbore smuggling, and have to make decisions about their ethics vs. profits.
Also, messy situations like the Congo are not exactly conducive to careful ethical business management practices, yet somehow that material gets to factories. I'm disagreeing with the characterization that major corporations work in 'clean' commodities or supply chains, especially given what payoffs and shrinkage and firepower has to be involved getting that material out of a war zone.
Finally, as a referee you WANT this sort of mess as opposed to a neat orderly regulated core sector commodity market (which would be largely dealing in reclamation/recycling anyway).
Either way, the PCs could get their hands on items in such a market without fullbore smuggling, and have to make decisions about their ethics vs. profits.
Also, messy situations like the Congo are not exactly conducive to careful ethical business management practices, yet somehow that material gets to factories. I'm disagreeing with the characterization that major corporations work in 'clean' commodities or supply chains, especially given what payoffs and shrinkage and firepower has to be involved getting that material out of a war zone.
Finally, as a referee you WANT this sort of mess as opposed to a neat orderly regulated core sector commodity market (which would be largely dealing in reclamation/recycling anyway).
Hmmm. Recycling... I wonder just how much Lanthanum could be recovered from a wrecked ship... And I'll bet that naval battle sites are not just left alone as memorials either. Maybe after the Navy has picked it clean first. And I'm sure that it would take years in such cases like "The Battle of Two Suns"
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Unless Imperiums are willing to countenance breaking up metal heavy inner planets, there will be a limit to usable tonnage to extract even from low-grade asteroids and multi-mile deep mines.
Several thousand years of exploration, industry, billions of pop, usage and loss (most notably crashes, running into a sun, battles, etc. etc.), would mean anything possibly economically extracted, has been.
We can see this principle active in the US South, which historically was poor in iron ore, but now does a fine business in steelmaking with electric-arc furnaces recycling scrap metal into new product.
The energy has been expended mining and processing the ore into steel then shipping it down South as product, now when cars or buildings or rail or ships or whatever are scrapped, the source 'ore' is effectively 'in place'.
Less total energy has to be input into reuse, and less shipping too since it is made likely within 1000 miles or less of where the 'new' product will be used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucor
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Actually, this brings up an interesting but generally, if not entirely, ignored portion of trade in Traveller. That is intra-system trade.
The first point of interest comes with the movement limitations of ships. This makes for some oddities of economics.
When you use the expanded system generation rules and map entire systems economics can change radically. First, movement within the system is such that for many outlying planets, and their satellites, the time and cost of moving to the main world equal or exceed that of jumping between systems.
For example, you have a system with an outlying gas giant that has numerous satellites. Let’s say some of those have population on them and are productive. But, the time to move from any one of those to the starport / main-world exceeds seven days without jumping. An in-system jump will take just as long as one from another system.
Now, jumping in from an adjacent system, main-world to main-world, takes just a long and is just as economical as an in-system jump would be. The commerce for either is equally economical.
But, it is also possible that a system when fully mapped could have micro-trade / intra-system trade within it. That is, there can be potentially more than one trade system within the system itself.
As an example, let’s say we have a population 8 main-world with a tech level of C. There’s an outer gas giant with four occupied satellite worlds, all with a population of 3 to 6, and tech level of B. Movement between them takes hours to maybe a couple of days depending on orbital position.
One of these has an atmosphere and water. It primarily produces food for itself and the other satellite worlds. Technology allows for production in the outer zone efficiently. Two are engaged mostly in mining and producing raw materials and processed raw materials. These supply the fourth world.
The last world is a factory one producing finished goods. Many of these might be ones that the main-world doesn’t produce for various reasons like toxic waste, or other undesirable features. It is also placed relative to the gas giant where ships making the FTL event horizon (100 diameters out) is a relatively short trip. That makes jumping to the main-world or out to the satellites no more or less expensive than a J1 to an adjacent system would be.
These four worlds then become a self-sustaining system within a system. They would need one or two J1 ships like free traders to haul goods and luxury items from the main-world and haul their finished goods and even raw materials to the main-world. One or more non-jump ships would move cargo between the satellites. The gas giant provides all the fuel the ships, and even the satellites, need.
Add some local defenses as appropriate and you end up with a second system within the system. It might even decide that it is independent of the main-world resulting in a balkanized system.
There might even be several sub-systems within a single system depending on its overall make up. All any system really needs to make this happen is a tech level of about A and a population of 6 or greater.
In this sense, the current extended system generation rules underestimate the potential colonization of other worlds within a system. As technology approaches level A or exceeds it, the satellites of gas giants become very attractive as alternative mini-systems or sub-systems.
The same rules, I think, would apply to inter-system trade. One system produces something another wants but won’t or can’t produce on its own. That is, one system may produce goods another won’t for regulatory, safety, or environmental reasons. Other reasons could be lack of local resources, or the cost of recovery, as well as ones like planetary environment.
The result is that it's possible to have intra-system trade within a given system rather than have to go to another adjacent system for it.
The first point of interest comes with the movement limitations of ships. This makes for some oddities of economics.
When you use the expanded system generation rules and map entire systems economics can change radically. First, movement within the system is such that for many outlying planets, and their satellites, the time and cost of moving to the main world equal or exceed that of jumping between systems.
For example, you have a system with an outlying gas giant that has numerous satellites. Let’s say some of those have population on them and are productive. But, the time to move from any one of those to the starport / main-world exceeds seven days without jumping. An in-system jump will take just as long as one from another system.
Now, jumping in from an adjacent system, main-world to main-world, takes just a long and is just as economical as an in-system jump would be. The commerce for either is equally economical.
But, it is also possible that a system when fully mapped could have micro-trade / intra-system trade within it. That is, there can be potentially more than one trade system within the system itself.
As an example, let’s say we have a population 8 main-world with a tech level of C. There’s an outer gas giant with four occupied satellite worlds, all with a population of 3 to 6, and tech level of B. Movement between them takes hours to maybe a couple of days depending on orbital position.
One of these has an atmosphere and water. It primarily produces food for itself and the other satellite worlds. Technology allows for production in the outer zone efficiently. Two are engaged mostly in mining and producing raw materials and processed raw materials. These supply the fourth world.
The last world is a factory one producing finished goods. Many of these might be ones that the main-world doesn’t produce for various reasons like toxic waste, or other undesirable features. It is also placed relative to the gas giant where ships making the FTL event horizon (100 diameters out) is a relatively short trip. That makes jumping to the main-world or out to the satellites no more or less expensive than a J1 to an adjacent system would be.
These four worlds then become a self-sustaining system within a system. They would need one or two J1 ships like free traders to haul goods and luxury items from the main-world and haul their finished goods and even raw materials to the main-world. One or more non-jump ships would move cargo between the satellites. The gas giant provides all the fuel the ships, and even the satellites, need.
Add some local defenses as appropriate and you end up with a second system within the system. It might even decide that it is independent of the main-world resulting in a balkanized system.
There might even be several sub-systems within a single system depending on its overall make up. All any system really needs to make this happen is a tech level of about A and a population of 6 or greater.
In this sense, the current extended system generation rules underestimate the potential colonization of other worlds within a system. As technology approaches level A or exceeds it, the satellites of gas giants become very attractive as alternative mini-systems or sub-systems.
The same rules, I think, would apply to inter-system trade. One system produces something another wants but won’t or can’t produce on its own. That is, one system may produce goods another won’t for regulatory, safety, or environmental reasons. Other reasons could be lack of local resources, or the cost of recovery, as well as ones like planetary environment.
The result is that it's possible to have intra-system trade within a given system rather than have to go to another adjacent system for it.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I will need to look up and see exactly how "rare" the rare earths are, and post the sources here.
They're not rare at all. It's apparently about the difficulty in separating them, refining them, the skill required, and few sufficiently economical deposits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element
P.S. Recycling from electronics can be feasible.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I'm waaaiiitiiinngg!
Information on the Earth's supply of rare earths can be found here.
http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/rare_earths/index.html#myb
General information on current and historical mineral production can be found here.
http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/myb.html
I use the historic data for my World War 2 class and game development, to identify why certain areas were critical for supplies in World War 2. One of the more critical commodities was Tin.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Actually, the critical need was for tin cans. A lot of cartridge brass was recycled. Tin cans were a bit harder to do that with, especially for the C ration cans.
It's useful to note that that data is based on a sample of exactly one planet - Earth. Other planets may have various minerals more or less common than on Earth (for example, iridium is a lot more common in meteors than in Earth's crust, so it is used by geologists to distinguish deposits from meteor impacts from regular substrate).
It's worth noting that the expectation is that earth has the same overall proportions, but sorted (by gravity, radio-decay, and mantle circulation) so that most of the heavy elements are in the core... including iridium.
After the death star, Alderaan's irridium would have been accessible....
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Now see, that's the bright side of planetary destruction- all that belter activity!
<aramis begins to do the Monty Python "Always look on the Bright side of Life" dance.>
In all seriousness, tho', other systems may have different initial abundances, too.
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