Refined vs unrefined fuel

[womble]

Since there's a 1% chance of a ship-lethal misjump when using unrefined fuel, is it assumed that almost everyone pays for refined fuel? As a financial entity lending MC to an individual to buy the ship, I'd want some rock-solid insurance that the operator wouldn't use unrefined fuel.

Given that refined fuel is 5 times the price of unrefined the 6-7T of cargo space a fuel-refining plant would take up is probably the most productive standard cargo a freighter could haul... rates up there with a mail contract

Luck
R

 

[snrdg082102]

Originally posted by womble:
Since there's a 1% chance of a ship-lethal misjump when using unrefined fuel, is it assumed that almost everyone pays for refined fuel? As a financial entity lending MC to an individual to buy the ship, I'd want some rock-solid insurance that the operator wouldn't use unrefined fuel.

Given that refined fuel is 5 times the price of unrefined the 6-7T of cargo space a fuel-refining plant would take up is probably the most productive standard cargo a freighter could haul... rates up there with a mail contract

Luck
R

Morning Womble,

Depends on where you are working within the Traveller universe. If you are working the more civilized sectors then you probably pay for your fuel. If your in between the civilized and frontier sectors you may buy, refine your own, or chance using unrefined fuel. On the frontier your choices are to either pay the high prices at a starport, if they even have a processing facility. Pay for a processing/purification plant to take up a couple of tons of space to refine your own. Or take your chances with unrefined fuel, since you don't have an option if the vessel doesn't have a refining plant.

 

[womble]

Hi Tom

Would you get in an airplane if you knew that one in a hundred were going to vanish without trace? I wouldn't.

It all came out of the little workup of the economics I did - pointed up the cost differential between refined and unrefined fuel: 40T a trip for a Far Trader means its 60T-odd of cargo have to earn about 500Cr more per trip to cover the cost. It's so not worth the risk that any mortgage company would be mad not to insist that the ship they are underwriting be fitted with one, and any military fleet that didn't fit them as standard to their independent operations vessels would be criminally endangering their crews...

I don't have any materiel here - isn't there a ship's boat called a fuel pinnace or something, designed to scoop and crack water or skim gas giants? I suspect a fuel refiner would be installed in any such smallcraft.

Also, given the price of refiners, it's a surprise that refined fuel is so much more expensive. The yield of refined fuel isn't noted as being markedly less than crude, IIRC, so even the most basic of spaceports (down to D-Class) would have a refiner, probably several capable of supplying the starport's need; if the starport didn't provide the service, someone in the Startown would... or ships waiting in port would sell refined fuel amongst themselves. Lower-class starports might either have a defective refiner or one underrated for the traffic coming through.

 

[ljsteele]

Heck at that price differential, one should see freelance refiners in orbit around gas giants, or on moons, in systems that are just waystations on major trade routes. (Just come to Crazy Eddie's refined fuel...Our prices are low, low, low...)

Drop a worn out freighter or two in orbit, fill it with tanks, couple of dedicated ships boats to scope raw fuel to refine. Could easily handle the normal volume of traffic.

The whole diving into gas giants things has always seemed odd to me. There's never been much about the mechanics invovled. The time involved. How deep one must go.

Or about fueling from comets, the oort cloud, etc.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Womble, I like the way you make em think! Lisa, you too, lass !

There are several ways to tweak this:

a) refined fuel is better fer yer engines (M/J-drives), resulting in less wear and tear.
b) increase the chances of wear N Tear with unrefined fuel ( as well as the misjump percentage).
c) Fuel purification plants should be standard on SL and PSL (partially streamlined vessels to be able to scoop dive GG's), they are IMTU, unless ye have a ship with USL, and no CG lifters- orbital docking only-the OTU 3ktn Tukera Long Liner series, is a prime example. Some OTU Liners are as well (like carnival cruise ships-shuttles take ye down dirtside/ do the refuelling if off the beaten path)
d) Make refined fuel more efficient IYTU- better gas mileage? my modern equivalent is what I'm saying.

More on this can be found here Miss Lisa, Mr womble:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/tweakjd.html
Ken Pick does a great job of this, if I may say so. Lotsa good ideas on "Doing it My Way" page of Freelance Traveller website.\

schools out, class dismissed,
the acolyte of T20 evil has left the building...
Now go out there and make something happen!

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Womble,

Well, I spent most of my 20-years of Naval service in submarines, so my answer is sure I'd get into an airplane or a jump capable vessel. Actually, a closer analogy would be sailing ships, which had a chance of disappearing, for the time anyway, without a trace.

Originally posted by womble:
Hi Tom

Would you get in an airplane if you knew that one in a hundred were going to vanish without trace? I wouldn't.

It all came out of the little workup of the economics I did - pointed up the cost differential between refined and unrefined fuel: 40T a trip for a Far Trader means its 60T-odd of cargo have to earn about 500Cr more per trip to cover the cost. It's so not worth the risk that any mortgage company would be mad not to insist that the ship they are underwriting be fitted with one, and any military fleet that didn't fit them as standard to their independent operations vessels would be criminally endangering their crews...

I don't have any materiel here - isn't there a ship's boat called a fuel pinnace or something, designed to scoop and crack water or skim gas giants? I suspect a fuel refiner would be installed in any such smallcraft.

Also, given the price of refiners, it's a surprise that refined fuel is so much more expensive. The yield of refined fuel isn't noted as being markedly less than crude, IIRC, so even the most basic of spaceports (down to D-Class) would have a refiner, probably several capable of supplying the starport's need; if the starport didn't provide the service, someone in the Startown would... or ships waiting in port would sell refined fuel amongst themselves. Lower-class starports might either have a defective refiner or one underrated for the traffic coming through.

 

[womble]

Lisa:
Hi
Could put the refueller at 100 diameters or so, or four at the points of a tetrahedron, to facilitate fast refuelling without that tedious half day there and back... Big systems might develop major stations around such a concept.

Liam:
Hello, thanks for the link. Most handy.
a/b) I like the idea of wear and tear increase for unrefined fuel, or a wear and tear discount for refined.
c) I think having the refiner be an extra component is a Good Thing(TM) because pure combat monsters like fighters and Battle Riders shouldn't be lumbered with the Mass. However, I agree it should be fitted - reduce the Far Trader's cargo hold to 61 Ton...
d) Better mileage, I like: the 50% consumption idea on Ken's page rings my bell: "There and back again". For M-drive, maybe 1-5% worse performance using unrefined fuel - a ship with the same M rating using refined fuel will catch one using unrefined but if there's a rating difference, that's more immportant.

Tom:
Submarines [shudder]

Sailing ships is a better analogy, I agree, but still, did 1% of all voyages vanish without trace? I favour dropping the misjump chance for refined fuel, maybe even by a factor of 10 - even increasing the chance of a minor misjump using refined fuel (it's currently zero with a competent astrogator who has time). Maybe poor conditions for Jump should affect the probability of really nasty mishaps? Or did I just miss that modifier...?

All:
Thanks for your ideas

R

 

[Liam Devlin]

Womble, you're welcome! Once again, welcome to CoTI!

 

[GBoyett]

This is somewhat OT but isn't it strange that alot of the standard designs don't have purification plants! I can see that the civilian ship may not have plants because they were designed to travelled from civilized world to another. But what about the military vessels like patrol cruisers? In particular the Scout Courier, which the mission profile requires it to explore unsettled world and systems.


Though in the defense of the Type S, IIRC somewhere in CT the scout was designed to handle unrefined better.

 

[womble]

Hi George

Stranger still to note that Far and Free Traders have 66T and 96T cargo holds respectively. Just enough for a 5T TL13 fuel refiner and 1T supplies for the onboard guests, leaving nice round divisible-by-10-for-easy-arithmetic Hold sizes...

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by womble:
Hi George

Stranger still to note that Far and Free Traders have 66T and 96T cargo holds respectively. Just enough for a 5T TL13 fuel refiner and 1T supplies for the onboard guests, leaving nice round divisible-by-10-for-easy-arithmetic Hold sizes...

Never notice that one. The 6 tons could also be used for the 6 ton TL12 FR jobby.

 

[far-trader]

Not to hijack the discussion but my reply took on a life of its own and no longer seemed to fit the Q and A forum here so I branched it to In My Traveller Universe

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by George Boyett:


<snip>

In particular the Scout Courier, which the mission profile requires it to explore unsettled world and systems.


Though in the defense of the Type S, IIRC somewhere in CT the scout was designed to handle unrefined better.

You are correct. The thing to keep in mind is that the Type S listed in the book is the stripped model available to ex-Scouts on Detached Duty or occasionally for sale as surplus assets. The mission ready model would have better electronics, an installed turret, a fuel purifier and perhaps an additional power plant and/or a research or survey lab taking up most of that cargo space listed. I wonder if I should post my version of the active service version on here somewhere and see what the reaction is.

 

[snrdg082102]

Yes, please post your design, I think that would go on the Fleet board.

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by George Boyett:


<snip>

In particular the Scout Courier, which the mission profile requires it to explore unsettled world and systems.


Though in the defense of the Type S, IIRC somewhere in CT the scout was designed to handle unrefined better.

You are correct. The thing to keep in mind is that the Type S listed in the book is the stripped model available to ex-Scouts on Detached Duty or occasionally for sale as surplus assets. The mission ready model would have better electronics, an installed turret, a fuel purifier and perhaps an additional power plant and/or a research or survey lab taking up most of that cargo space listed. I wonder if I should post my version of the active service version on here somewhere and see what the reaction is. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by George Boyett:


<snip>

In particular the Scout Courier, which the mission profile requires it to explore unsettled world and systems.


Though in the defense of the Type S, IIRC somewhere in CT the scout was designed to handle unrefined better.

You are correct. The thing to keep in mind is that the Type S listed in the book is the stripped model available to ex-Scouts on Detached Duty or occasionally for sale as surplus assets. The mission ready model would have better electronics, an installed turret, a fuel purifier and perhaps an additional power plant and/or a research or survey lab taking up most of that cargo space listed. I wonder if I should post my version of the active service version on here somewhere and see what the reaction is. </font>[/QUOTE]I did up a TL13 version with weapons and fuel pur. It's located on the ISS Ursula group, titled "ISS Pinter's Dream"

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by George Boyett:


<snip>

In particular the Scout Courier, which the mission profile requires it to explore unsettled world and systems.


Though in the defense of the Type S, IIRC somewhere in CT the scout was designed to handle unrefined better.

You are correct. The thing to keep in mind is that the Type S listed in the book is the stripped model available to ex-Scouts on Detached Duty or occasionally for sale as surplus assets. The mission ready model would have better electronics, an installed turret, a fuel purifier and perhaps an additional power plant and/or a research or survey lab taking up most of that cargo space listed. I wonder if I should post my version of the active service version on here somewhere and see what the reaction is. </font>[/QUOTE]I did up a TL13 version with weapons and fuel pur. It's located on the ISS Ursula group, titled "ISS Pinter's Dream" </font>[/QUOTE]I'll have to pop in and check it out. That'd be your PC's ship would it?

I posted my thoughts on the matter up in The Fleet as suggested, still not sure it was the rightest place but there it is.