Regina UWP from 1085 through 1900

[robject]

Rough draft for comments.

1085 ​A788899-A ​NS ​Ri Pa Ph Cp
1105 ​A788899-C​ NS ​Ri Pa Ph Cp
1200 ​A788999-D ​MS ​Hi Cp
1300 ​A78899B-F MS ​Hi Pr
1400 ​A788A7A-G MS ​Hi
1500 ​C778B7A-D MS ​Hi In
1600 ​A778B79-C ​NS ​Hi In
1700 ​A778A77-E​ NS​ Hi In Cp
1800 ​A777A76-G NS​ Hi In Cp
1900 ​A787976-G ​NS​ Ga Hi Pr Cp

 

[Garnfellow]

Wouldn't the atmosphere be more likely to go from 8 (dense) to 9 (dense, tainted) than 7 (normal, tainted) before returning to 8?

 

[McPerth]

I guess the first numbre is the date...

If so, it surprises me the lowering in TL from 1300 to 1600...

It also surprises me that in in the period 1500-1800 the amtpsphere becomes 7. I understand it can be polluted and then the problem ficxed, but, being a dense atosphere (8), shouldn't it be 9 (not 7) if tainted?

 

[robject]

Yes: it's much more typical for an atmosphere to simply acquire a taint, than to also lose pressure. That surprised me, too.

 

[mike wightman]

1300 - 1600 is Empress wave and its aftereffects yes?

So can we assume that post 1248 and the fourth Imperium (I still do not like that) something nasty happens to the Spinward Marches?

 

[robject]

Got nothing canonized on this. And of course my latest bent is to leave a LOT of it sandboxed. But I think we'll want to know what happens to Regina.

There's plenty in the timelines for something for each fan not to like, isn't there.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Well some published UWP from other sources

1105
1910 Regina A788899-C Ri Pa Ph An Cp (Amindii)2 Varg0 Asla0 Sa { 4 } (D7E+5) [9C6D] BcCeF NS - 703 8 ImDd F7 V BD M3 V
(T5 Second Survey from travellermap.com)

1117
Regina 1910 A788899-C A Ri Cp 703 DD F7V M8D M6V
(GDW The Regency Sourcebook p.38)

1202
Regina 1910 A788999-D A Hi Cp 103 Re F7V M8D M6V
(GDW The Regency Sourcebook p.38)
A - Scout and Naval base

1248
1910 Regina A788999-D L Hi Cp 303 Rr F7V M6V M8V
(Avenger 1248 Sourcebook 3 The Spinward States p.103)

L - Scout base and Military base. (Distinct and different from Scout base and Naval base which is code A in that book)
Rr - Republic of Regina

I will clean these up to T5 Standards for a more even comparison

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Here we go...
Year Hex Name UWP Remarks {Ix} (Ex) [Cx] N B Z PBG W A Stellar
---- ---- -------------------- --------- ---------------------------------------- ------ ------- ------ ----- -- - --- -- ---- --------------
1105 1910 Regina A788899-C Ri Pa Ph An Cp (Amindii)2 Varg0 Asla0 Sa { 4 } (D7E+5) [9C6D] BcCeF NS - 703 8 ImDd F7 V BD M3 V
1117 1910 Regina A788899-C Ri Pa Ph An Cp (Amindii)2 Varg0 Asla0 Sa { 4 } (D7E+5) [9C6D] BcCeF NS - 703 8 ImDd F7 V BD M3 V
1202 1910 Regina A788999-D Hi An Cp (Amindii)? Varg? Asla? Sa { 4 } (D8?+?) [?D??] KV - 103 8 Re F7 V BD M3 V
1248 1910 Regina A788999-D Hi An Cx (Amindii)? Varg? Asla? Sa { 3 } (D8?+?) [?C??]- MV - 303 8 Rr F7 V BD M3 V

Note:
Star data cleaned up to conform to T5SS (not likely to change in 700 years).
Importance is calculated. The loss/change of the Naval base causes a reduction of Ix in 1248.
Resources, while rolled, are represented as locations on the World Maps in T5.09. My assumption is that these do not change.
Labor is calculated.
Acceptance is calculated. As a result of the loss of naval base and thus Ix, Acceptance lowers.
Question marks indicate an item which may vary.
Nobility from a T5SS standpoint is ONLY Imperial nobility. Once they are Republic of Regina, no more "Imperial" nobility, thus blank. Realistically, same deal as Regency.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Wouldn't the atmosphere be more likely to go from 8 (dense) to 9 (dense, tainted) than 7 (normal, tainted) before returning to 8?

It would have to something which causes a taint AND a depletion of atmospheric pressure. As a natural trend, nice normal terrestrial planets will all eventually lose atmospere, but over the course of Millions of years.

I could see a planet going from 8 (dense) to 9 (dense, tainted).

I might even see a planet going to 8 (dense) to 7 (normal, tainted) depending on the nature of the pollution. Maybe the atmosphere becomes bound to the ground and no longer contributes to atmospheric pressure.

I have a problem with it coming back to normal AND restoring pressure. As a guideline I remind remind you of....

Rapid Terraforming 23.
The ability to manipulate the characteristic elements of a world. Rapid Terraforming includes the ability to restructure existing worlds, change their orbits, and change their atmospheric and surface details to conform to some desired standard, all within a reasonable timeframe somewhat less than a sophont adulthood. The term Terraforming includes any world specification (not just Terra-like). - Core Rules v5.09 TRAVELLER 5 p. 508

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Rough draft for comments.

1085 ​A788899-A ​NS ​Ri Pa Ph Cp
1105 ​A788899-C​ NS ​Ri Pa Ph Cp
1200 ​A788999-F ​MS ​Hi Cp
1300 ​A78899B-G​ MS ​Hi Pr
1400 ​A788A7A-E​ MS ​Hi
1500 ​C778B7A-D MS ​Hi In
1600 ​A778B79-C ​NS ​Hi In
1700 ​A778A77-E​ NS​ Hi In Cp
1800 ​A777A76-G NS​ Hi In Cp
1900 ​A787976-G ​NS​ Ga Hi Pr Cp

*** What is the MS code? ***

*** NS is navy plus scout bases, correct? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

T5 Second Survey Format requires that each type of base must be explicitly listed. M means military (Non-Naval) base.
Take a look here:
http://travellermap.com/doc/secondsurvey

robject, I would suggest you use the non-Imperial code for bases, in this case code V. Unless it is going to become some new 5th Imperium (sorry Mike Wrightman).

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Some stuff on TL changes:
A.If you go with the T5 5.09 rules:
Pg. 512 has the lifespan of a species changing TL is on the order of 10 generations so going up a TL is around one TL every 200 years, barring "story driven" events. The sophonts of Regina are not a single "species" per se, but hey T5 has rules for advancing TL in some way. Why not use it?


B.If you go with Marc Miller's Traveller Pocket Empires:
First keep in mind that in 1248, the highest TL for the Republic of Regina is D at Regina itself.
In Pocket Empires(PE), you can raise TL of any world in the PE with the proper resource investment and waiting the proper amount of time. Even with technology leak from other empires, trading war and so on.

Technological Uplift method - You can raise the TL of any world up to the max TL of the empire. This method does not work as Regina is at max for its empire, but if the Republic absorbs some higher TL world (Darrian ?) it could then go fast. Half the time if you make a really good roll:
D to E 60 years
E to F 60 years
F to G 80 years

Technological Advancement method - You can raise the TL of any world at max TL in the empire, setting a new maxium. This method is more likely if nothing else special happens with the empire. Again in a game context, half the time if the "ruler" of the PE makes a really good roll:
D to E 500 years
E to F 600 years
F to G 800 years

 

[robject]

robject, I would suggest you use the non-Imperial code for bases, in this case code V. Unless it is going to become some new 5th Imperium (sorry Mike Wrightman).

The REAL reason is because the T5 Rulebook only has N and S.

Pg. 512 has the lifespan of a species changing TL is on the order of 10 generations so going up a TL is around one TL every 200 years, barring "story driven" events. The sophonts of Regina are not a single "species" per se, but hey T5 has rules for advancing TL in some way. Why not use it?

Two reasons. First, this is not independent, sophont TL progression, as you note. And though a random process was used, it is story driven.

in 1248, the highest TL for the Republic of Regina is D at Regina itself.

Yes, I'll have to follow the 1248 timeline (OP updated).

 

[maksimsmelchak]

T5 Second Survey Format requires that each type of base must be explicitly listed. M means military (Non-Naval) base.
Take a look here:
http://travellermap.com/doc/secondsurvey

robject, I would suggest you use the non-Imperial code for bases, in this case code V. Unless it is going to become some new 5th Imperium (sorry Mike Wrightman).

That's what I was wondering about: M+S instead of M+V.

S, a scout base is Imperial.

V, an explorer base is non-Imperial.

I have them mapped out here:
External Link: [http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Talk:Trade_classification/summaries#Base_Table]

Thanks for your help.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I think that you TL advancement over the years is too fast based on current information. Without knowing the nature of the disaster in 1600 or what method of bootstrapping allowed to Regina to advance so quickly, I think your TL advancment is too much. From my previous post about Pocket Empires, barring no disasters or other information your TL advancement would look like this following 1248.

"Normal" Advancement would make TL look like this
1200 D
1300 D
1400 D
1500 D
1600 D
1700 D
1800 E
1900 E
2400 F
3200 G

"Agressive" Advancement would make TL look like this:
1200 D
1300 D
1400 D
1500 E
1600 E
1700 E
1800 F
1900 F
2100 G
Now lets say that your disaster knocks down the TL in 1600 down to C as you want. That hick-up has the following effect even with agressive advancement.
1200 D
1300 D
1400 D
1500 E
1600 C
1700 C
1800 D
1900 D
2000 D
2100 E
2400 F
2800 G

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Finally there is population. It increases from 9 to B in less than 300 years and then down again? The growth may explain the TL and ecological disaster, but is it? It loses 99% of its population between 1500 and 1900? From a population standpoint, it sounds like Regina is in a population death spiral. That being the case, would its TL be increasing as people are leaving?
Year Code Population
1105 8 700,000,000 (canon)
1202 9 1,000,000,000 (canon)
1248 9 3,000,000,000 (canon)
1300 9 3,000,000,000 (at least?)
1400 A 10,000,000,000 ??
1500 B 100,000,000,000 ??
1600 B 100,000,000,000 ??
1700 A 10,000,000,000 ??
1800 A 10,000,000,000 ??
1900 9 1,000,000,000 ??

 

[robject]

Finally there is population.

That's the most problematic one for sure. 99% population loss would be worse than a disaster, it would be death.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

That's the most problematic one for sure. 99% population loss would be worse than a disaster, it would be death.

Trying to make things "logical" always seems to kill games... Especially since we tend to have slightly or greatly different ideas of what does and does not make sense.

When I come across Traveller data that doesn't seem intuitively logical (i.e. does not make sense), I've always found it easier to come up with story (plot) elements that do make things work.

In a world of the future with technologies, societies, and knowledge far beyond our present understandings, I'd like to think that almost anything is possible.

• Population fluctuations:
• A nearby lanthanum or iridium strike...
• A killer epidemic virus...
• Strong social taboos...
• Paranoia...
• Heavy-handed government intervention...
• Megacorporation meddling...
• Noble disputes spilling over into the lives of regular people...

There is somehow to make just about anything make sense when the proper context is applied to the story...

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[savage]

Finally there is population. It increases from 9 to B in less than 300 years and then down again? The growth may explain the TL and ecological disaster, but is it? It loses 99% of its population between 1500 and 1900? From a population standpoint, it sounds like Regina is in a population death spiral. That being the case, would its TL be increasing as people are leaving?
Year Code Population
1105 8 700,000,000 (canon)
1202 9 1,000,000,000 (canon)
1248 9 3,000,000,000 (canon)
1300 9 3,000,000,000 (at least?)
1400 A 10,000,000,000 ??
1500 B 100,000,000,000 ??
1600 B 100,000,000,000 ??
1700 A 10,000,000,000 ??
1800 A 10,000,000,000 ??
1900 9 1,000,000,000 ??

Why death spiral? It could simply be immigration to other worlds. If jobs are hard to come by and the industry or government is encouraging resource programs with other systems or simply moving off planet.

The problem is the tie into TL.

I've also never liked the TL growth charts. Explosive TL growth occurs during high stress periods or through aide. For example, during WW2 technology growth was a major activity that lowered the quality of life but resulted in a TL change. Over the last 20 years we're been trying to teach African tribes to survive despite environment and population. Certainly worth a TL. China is no different.

So, lets say that a WW2 TL world is going to die. We happen across this world and being a new interstellar culture have only a few 200dt ships. They are expensive. So, we send teachers and engineers to WW2 TL world and teach them how to build an ark. Hollow out a few asteroids and your good to go. They learn quickly, drop all non-essentials and in one generation we have 2-6 homeworlds. Of course, they become dependent on higher TL survival and go down in history as the Skyraiders. A weakness in the UWP because it skips cultural behavior. I'm intentionally not mention the TL numbers because across all the examples cultures in need, make due.

In the example, of Regina, it needs to elevate the TL of other worlds at an alarming rate. This was the legacy of the Regency. Explosive growth across the sectors.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

savage, because robject is going with 1248 canon here and stated such in at least one previous response. As such, I am going with the data presented in 1248 source as valid and therefore UWP and future history must nod to it, at least in the short term. In order to determine if these UWP are reasonable, more information is needed on the nature of the changes and some info on Regina relationship to it being the capital of this interstellar entity called the Republic of Regina.

The entire population of the Republic of Regina in 1248 is 66,694,230,000 given the respective UWP found in the source material. Regina is a very nice world environmentally, but other worlds in the polity that are equally habitable with less population. I have a systematic method of determining that by determining the World's Resource Value Modifier (RVM) and Affinity (AFF) ala GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars by using T5SS Resources and its T5SS (or current) UWP. I can share that in another post, or here if you like. Why did the excess people not go to those other worlds?

The Republic formed in 1232 with Regina as the capital. By 1300 according to the UWP here Regina is no longer a capital? OK, need some story here. What happened to the Republic of Regina? Did the capital transfer, or did the Republic break up? Geographically it it is around the center of the Republic.

Finally, the Republic is the only state after the Big Three that maintains a full Scout Service. If the disaster is environmental/astronomical, they could not see it coming?