Religions

[jatay3]

If you feel the need to engage in some freshmen level, cracker barrel 'philosophizing', head on over to Random Static. Okay?
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Oh well then don't expect remarks about "inflexibility" to be ignored. That is a loaded word that carries assumptions about the truth or falsehood of a whole philosophy.
And "freshman, cracker-barrel" is an ad-homminem.

 

[Malenfant]

Jatay - you sound like you're religious. You also sound like you have no idea about how science really works. And you also are not particularly convincing in your amateurish philosophical expositions.

(I think the apocalypse is knocking on my door, because for once I actually agree with something Bill says...

)

I would also direct you to the definition of 'dogma', which defines it as:

1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present”

Kindly point out to me where the 'flexibility' is in there, given that religion follows dogma. Because it sounds to me like dogma requires you to believe it and not question it, and it is unchangable and authoritative because it is believed to be absolutely true.

 

[jatay3]

Missionaries go out and convert 'primitive heathens' regardless of whether or not those 'heathens' are happy the way t
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And Alchoholics Annonomous asks drunkards to convert regardless of whether they are happy the way they are

The only real person I ever met who had ever been a real heathen(as opposed to a new-ager)was offended even at the thought of useing mythology as a story without believing it. He was not "happy the way he was".
That is only one person and is not empirical evedence but it is something

 

[Malenfant]

And I've met a heathen - a proper, honest to Odin norse god worshipper - who chased off Jehovah Witnesses by proclaiming that unlike them he "doesn't have to prostrate himself before his god". And he was perfectly happy as he was.

(I've known quite a few heathens actually. All nice people too).

And also, alcoholics and drug abusers have a physical condition and a psychological dependency. A tribesman in Papua New Guinea who worships something else does not. Your analogy is not even remotely close to a valid comparison.

 

[jatay3]

The flexibility lies in being persuaded by revelation , authority , or reason that the previous dogma was wrong. Science is no different except that the only non-rational dogma it accepts is that human reason and observation are valid sources(it does accept authority by the way even though it says it doesn't-how do you think scientists know anything outside there own specialty.
And yes I do know about science. That is I know as much as a reasonably well-learned person that is primarily interested in humanities rather then science can be expected to. Science depends on making a hypothisis and testing it. But some things cannot be tested.
My point is that you imply that "flexibility" is good of itself. That depends on what you are talking of however. A rope should be flexible, a hammer shouldn't.

 

[jatay3]

nd also, alcoholics and drug abusers have a physical condition and a psychological dependency. A tribesman in Papua New Guinea who worships something else does not.
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Are you so sure?

 

[jatay3]

And I've met a heathen - a proper, honest to Odin norse god worshipper
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really? does he want to have a funeral by having a slave cremated alive with him?

 

[RandyT0001]

Originally posted by Malenfant:

(I think the apocalypse is knocking on my door, because for once I actually agree with something Bill says...

)

Next thing you know, you'll be giving each other a hug!

 

[Malenfant]

Judeo-Christian religions would probably be long dead I think - particularly given that there is evidence that alien races came to visit earth in the past. Who's to say that any biblical events were not just the tinkering of other races?

Errrr... just to answer Randy's PM to me: I was saying this from within the context of the OTU where of course, aliens HAVE visited the Earth.

Not in reality though

. (though hey, for all I know they did in reality too. We certainly don't have any convicing evidence for that though).

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by jatay3:
Are you so sure?

The fact you even ask that question implies to me that you're navel-gazing too much. You seem to be somewhat disconnected from reality.

 

[jatay3]

The fact you even ask that question implies to me that you're navel-gazing too much. You seem to be somewhat disconnected from reality.
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How so? You keep asking for flexibility yet you assume with no reason that your's is the only view available.
Even if Papuans are happy(from what I've heard they are too busy eating each other but that is a side note)will they always be happy?
Is happiness the primary good?
Of course I am assuming that there is a next world. But you are assuming there is not.
Oh and by the way the former heathen I met was once a real heathen-he wasn't just imitateing his ancestors because he liked their stories. He was a Hmong exile and grew up being taught by real witch-doctors.
A fine and gallant man-but he was once a heathen.

 

[jatay3]

The point I am making with my comparison with drink is that error is a trap just like drink.
Now you may not believe the Papuans to be in error. You may not believe in the possibility of error(then why are you bothering to argue?) but I do.

 

[jatay3]

However as Bill wants to go on to Traveller I suppose that is a reasonable request.
In Hasbro Diplomacy we have a custom which we call a DMZ-we leave an unimportant space empty so that neither can attack the other without telegraphing.
Suppose we find a philosophical DMZ that both can accept without feeling honor bound to respond?
Say...
Religion is a part of human history for true or false, for better or worse, and sometimes for all of the above in different ways.
Therefore it will likly be part of Traveller history.
Will that suffice?

 

[Malenfant]

The point I am making with my comparison with drink is that error is a trap just like drink.

No, you raised a completely irrelevant analogy that had nothing to do with religion. Alcoholism and addictions are diseases - having a different religion or not believing in a god is not, and is not something that requires 'curing'.

Now you may not believe the Papuans to be in error. You may not believe in the possibility of error(then why are you bothering to argue?) but I do.

You cannot say for sure that the Papuans (or the hapless victims of your missionary effort) are wrong though.

You have to know something as an objective fact to make a correct statement about whether it is right or wrong, and you simply don't know that when it comes to religion.

You don't even know if you (the missionary) are correct - you only believe that you are, and there is a world of difference between knowledge and faith.

You could both be wrong. You could even both be right. Or they could be right and you could be wrong (or vice versa). However, you are wrong for assuming that you are right given that there is no evidence that this is true. You only assume you're correct because you believe that you are, not because you have any evidence or can actually prove the other side wrong.

So I am merely saying that given that this is the case, a missionary is not justified in going round converting everyone because you can't be certain that they're wrong. (not that this stops them of course).


See it from the other side - imagine you're the tribesman, or that an alien race visits earth and sends missionaries among us. Imagine they say that your religion is wrong and that you should convert to theirs. What do you do? You believe they are wrong. They believe you are wrong. Is either of you correct? Or are you both wrong?

Or what if they aren't religious and instead say that they've found no evidence of god in the universe. You'd probably just shrug and say that god hasn't revealed himself to them instead of considering the possibility that God doesn't exist.

And no, I don't think that Religion will always be a part of human culture. I think it is quite possible that we will abandon it at some point in the future.

 

[RandyT0001]

Timeline
-2211 The Vilani world of Vondaniken (E766889-8) looses contact with the 1st Imperium because of the IW's with Terra

-2005 Daniken civilization collapses, tech level falls from 8 to 0 within 100 years, population decreases due to famine and war, cities in ruin

-1189 Civilization re-emerges as religion spreads, TL climbs to 1

12 Civilization flowers as an 'age of reason' leads to advances in tech. Religion falters slightly. TL 2

382 The age of sail leads to the discovery of new lands. TL 3

769 Neo-classical age brings growth to religion. Advances in technology is marked by the age of steam. TL 4

835 Industrial age is marked by the advances in technology, religions suffer greatly. TL 5

901 Modern age begins as tech advances. New religion emerges from archeology digs of 2000 year old ruins. TL 6

973 New religion gains widespread acceptance. Tech advances as society is restructured. TL 7

1101 Arrival of IISS scout mission to re-contact Vondaniken is viewed by locals as affirmination of their new religion. The scouts are horrified as sacrifices are made to appease them upon their arrival.

And the new religion is?

Chariots of the Gods,the belief that long ago the 'ancient astronauts' helped the Vondaniken's build their ancient pyramids and obilesks! And the new UWP is E7669DA-7.

 

[Malenfant]

There was a comic series out ages ago (um, 80s I think. could have been a European thing) that basically described the Chariots of the Gods book. Can't remember who did it though, it was the same format as the Asterix and Tintin books. But it was a fairly cool read - the Sondes were nice (the rockets that the aliens used to get around on), and the tech was nifty.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by jatay3:
However as Bill wants to go on to Traveller I suppose that is a reasonable request.

Jatay3,

A reasonable request? That happens to be what the original question was, so I guess by definition it is reasonable.

Simply put; I don't give a damn about your ideas and/or beliefs regarding religion(s) in the Real World. What you believe or don't believe is none of my business and none of the business of Traveller either.

Even 'debating' religious beliefs - as if religious beliefs can actually be discussed rationally - is utter nonsense in a RPG forum. Follow the 'Golden Rule' of your particular brand of irrationality and do unto others what you wish will be done unto you; i.e. Believe what you wish to believe and don't inflict your ideas on anyone else.

If you feel the need to discuss religion in the Real World, go to Random Static. That's what that particular forum is there for.

So, please, go on about religion in Traveller. Oddly enough, that's precisely what Roger actually wanted to hear about.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Jame]

So how would you guys go about making a Priest career path?

One thing to keep in mind is that there are several methods of priesthood, i.e. a rabbi has to go to a rabbinical school but doesn't need a B.A. or such, while a "Christian" priest may not only need that but to be blessed by the Church (if I get it wrong keep in mind I'm no sort of Christian). And so forth.

 

[Jame]

So how would you guys go about making a Priest career path?

One thing to keep in mind is that there are several methods of priesthood, i.e. a rabbi has to go to a rabbinical school but doesn't need a B.A. or such, while a "Christian" priest may not only need that but to be blessed by the Church (if I get it wrong keep in mind I'm no sort of Christian). And so forth.

My suggestion would be that INT and EDU of 8+ would get a bonus, and the career skill would be Theology (though Philosophy would be in the career skill options).

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Jame:
So how would you guys go about making a Priest career path?

I'd use the Bureaucrat career from LBB Supplement 4, "Citizens of the Imperium".
You might want to tweak the brawling and weapons skills, but I wouldn't. Lots of people have hobbies.

More advanced chargen methods would almost certainly have a college requirement representing religious training, if not actual attendance at university.

Possibilities also exist for terms of service as a military chaplain or missionary, opening up a wider skill set (medic and the like).