• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Representation in Traveller art

Status
Not open for further replies.

Adam Dray

SOC-13
Baronet
Marquis
I did an informal review of the Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook, and it's actually pretty decent at including illustrations of women and people of color, though it could be better. It's just distributed oddly.

I looked at each illustration. If it contained obvious humanoid figures, I categorized them.

My skin tone categories were "alien" (meaning, to me, skin tone and gender were not useful concepts), "white" (meaning that the skin tone was pretty clearly white), "POC" (meaning that the skin tone was pretty clearly not white), or "can't tell skin tone."

My sex categories were "male" (presenting typical male features), "female" (presenting typical female features), or "can't tell sex."

I also noted if the figure was completely covered in a spacesuit or battlesuit, as there are a lot of these.


OVERALL

70 figures

White: 47%
POC: 13%
Can't Tell Skin: 29% (10% completely covered)

Male: 50%
Female: 19%
Can't Tell Sex: 20% (10% completely covered)

Alien: 11%


FIRST QUARTER OF BOOK
(Character Creation, pp 1-47)

44 figures

White: 64%
POC: 5% (2)
Can't Tell Skin: 18% (9% completely covered)

Male: 50%
Female: 23%
Can't Tell Sex: 14% (9% completely covered)

Alien: 14%



SECOND QUARTER OF BOOK
(Skills & Tasks, Combat, Encounters & Dangers, Equipment, pp 48-104)

19 figures

White: 11% (2)
POC: 32%
Can't Tell Skin: 58% (16% completely covered)

Male: 53%
Female: 11% (2)
Can't Tell Sex: 37% (16% completely covered)

Alien: 0%



LAST HALF OF BOOK
(Spacecraft, Space Combat, Psionics, Trade, Worlds, Index, pp 105-188)

7 figures

White: 43%
POC: 14% (1)
Can't Tell Skin: 14% (0% completely covered)

Male: 43%
Female: 14% (1)
Can't Tell Sex: 14% (15.8% completely covered)

Alien: 29%



Cheesecake and Beefcake

I also looked at each image and made a very subjective determination about whether the image focused on "cheesecake and beefcake." Note that I made this determination for each figure, regardless of gender. Also note that I don't care if it's "sexy" as a side-effect, but rather if it contained (again, IMO) overtly sexualized imagery.

I realize that people will disagree on what falls into this category, or why. I'm also not judging this content as good or bad. It just is.

13 of the 70 images (19%) fell into this category, by my estimation. Of those 13, 9 were female, 4 were male.

One of the representations of the Entertainer on page 18 was a woman in a skintight outfit that suggested near nudity (certainly there are other kinds of entertainment roles for women in the future). There were a couple instances of combat-ready women carrying guns, but wearing cutoff t-shirts, hip-hugging jeans, and no bras. The example of the Scholar on page 30 depicts a curvy woman with large breasts clearly visible through a very skimpy and clingy cutoff t-shirt; her nipples are covered by suspenders that fail to hold up her pants, such that her thong is clearly visible. She's carrying three books and a scroll, so she's probably supposed to be the Field Researcher. Sexy, but I'm not sure it screams "Scholar" (Field Researcher / Scientist / Physician), unless it's the "Sexy Scholar" costume for Halloween. For contrast, the male figure on the same page is a 60-something white guy dressed in a surgeon's lab coat, wearing a stethoscope, hovering over a medical patient--you know, doing Physician stuff and not looking sexy at all.

The four male figures I marked as beefcake, for reference, are on pages 18, 20, 25, and 58. Their level of beefcake isn't nearly the same as the level of cheesecake for the women, but I felt like I should mark them. Generally, they made the list because they were wearing clingy t-shirts that showed their muscles, or had a big codpiece for no reason at all. The male Entertainer has his shirt open. Really, you probably wouldn't think twice about most of them.
 
hmm.....

it appears that my version of the book must have very different artwork, as the imagines you describe on page 18 are not at all "cake" in my version, nor are they on page 18 (it appears my version has an extra page in it, since the photos in the char gen section are on the odd numbered pages, not the even).
 
I'm never impressed by RPG books which have scantily clad women. It's not that I'm against it, but rather that I find it distracting, and I'd rather not be distracted when I'm trying to concentrate on rules.

I also tend to get the secondary and purely subjective suspicion that perhaps the artwork is (in this case) intended to distract me from a lack of substance in the rules.
 
I'm going off a PDF and it might have been reissued since I downloaded it. Page 18 in my book is the start of the entry for "Entertainer."

Also, my version has art on both even and odd pages.

[Entertainer]
Page 18: sexy pole-dancer woman, and open-shirted punk rocker man with guitar.

Page 19: Bald reporter man with camera.


Yeah, I hadn't noticed that she's a pole-dancer, so she's supposed to represent "Performer," which the rules give examples of "You are an actor, dancer, acrobat, professional athlete, or other public performer." A professional athlete woman would have totally rocked here, especially if she were sporting mean-looking football gear.
 
I am pretty sure that the art in Traveller doesn't look like any science fiction book cover taken seriously. That is, this is black and white line art used internally, rather than on the cover. As such, it has a different purpose than cover art.

Still, I don't think it's relevant. It might explain why it is that way, but not why it should be that way.

So book covers suck more than the Traveller RPG in terms of representation? Not a compelling argument.

I was pretty surprised by the small numbers of cheesecake pics in Mongoose Traveller, though I'd personally like to replace three or four of them with other art. Those 3-4 are just gratuitous and kind of insulting to my intelligence. (Really? You represented the Entertainer/Performer with a woman pole-dancer? FFS. Really? The Scholar/Field Researcher needs to show her boobs and panties, and you almost don't notice her books? FFS.) But overall, better than a lot of games in that regard.

I'd like to see a 1:1 balance of male and female figures (it's 5:2), not to mention some non-binaries. Hey, the TL15 future just isn't gonna be gender binary.

The racial divide is sad, sad, sad. Apparently, Traveller's artists (and art director) didn't give it much thought, and it defaulted to an Imperium full of white people (4:1 ratio), though props to all the ones that could be anything, including lots of full-coverage body armor.

And they probably should mix the POC art up a bit so some of it appears in the Character Generation section where players are thinking about "who I can be." (I smirk a bit when I interpret their choice as, "You should chargen a white character, but it's the POC in the galaxy who are getting crap done.")
 
yhea, that's nothing like the art in my edition of the book. the three art pieces for entertainer are

male artist, holding some weird chainsaw like thing while looking at a sculpture he is making. dressed in a buttoned up trenchcoat and big ass shades/safety glasses.

a reporter, with a mid thigh length jacket, a scarf around neck and a camera on one shoulder. features are somewhat androgynous, I think its a man, but you could convincingly argue it was a woman with a very short haircut

a dancer, wearing a top with a harlequin diamond checker and knee high boots, doing some crazy handstand/flip thin and holding a lit flare his hand. mostly bald, with a very long ponytail (would be waist length if he was stood upright. I believe he a man, but that's mainly due a lack of clear sexual characteristics primary, secondary or tertiary)

all appear to be white, and for that matter all the "career example" pics are as well, but several faces appear to be of non white backgrounds (one or two are convincingly east Asian, one looks like hes African, etc)
 
I was pretty surprised by the small numbers of cheesecake pics in Mongoose Traveller, though I'd personally like to replace three or four of them with other art. Those 3-4 are just gratuitous and kind of insulting to my intelligence. (Really? You represented the Entertainer/Performer with a woman pole-dancer? FFS. Really? The Scholar/Field Researcher needs to show her boobs and panties, and you almost don't notice her books? FFS.)

[...]

The racial divide is sad, sad, sad. Apparently, Traveller's artists (and art director) didn't give it much thought, and it defaulted to an Imperium full of white people (4:1 ratio), though props to all the ones that could be anything, including lots of full-coverage body armor.

I think Mongoose knows exactly who its market is. Hence the boobs. Check out some of their other material.

I suppose some people could say "yeah, but there's not very many boobs." Doesn't matter: neither my wife, my mom, nor my grandma would appreciate it, and I will not have that material around for my daughter. No reason to reinforce the bimbo sex object stereotype. Like we don't get enough of that in the media. It would be like someone saying "yeah, but there's not very many phalluses in this book." One Is Too Many.

What do boobs and phalluses have to do with Traveller, anyway? (That's rhetorical; please don't answer).
 
Adam - perhaps you should compare these numbers to those in a couple other editions. I would suggest (for similar levels of illustrations) MegaTraveller and TNE.
 
Adam - perhaps you should compare these numbers to those in a couple other editions. I would suggest (for similar levels of illustrations) MegaTraveller and TNE.

Feel free to help! :cool:

I might have PDFs of those around. In any case, I think you have an idea of what I'll find. Is it more boobs or less boobs? ;) Better representation of POC or worse?
 
yhea, that's nothing like the art in my edition of the book. the three art pieces for entertainer are

Huh, Aramis or anyone else with a better grasp of the history of MGT: Was there a redo of the MGT Core Rulebook at some point with totally different art?

Once I get a chance and can figure out the right way to put images up here, I'll screen shot what I have and show the Entertainer in my book.
 
Huh, Aramis or anyone else with a better grasp of the history of MGT: Was there a redo of the MGT Core Rulebook at some point with totally different art?

The 1st Printing 8.5" x 11" Core Rules had different illustrations (I don't have it in front of me). I recall thinkning that the redone illustrations in the 5"x8" ("LBB") format Core Rules were better.
 
Huh, Aramis or anyone else with a better grasp of the history of MGT: Was there a redo of the MGT Core Rulebook at some point with totally different art?

Once I get a chance and can figure out the right way to put images up here, I'll screen shot what I have and show the Entertainer in my book.

Yes. At least once.
 
I think Mongoose knows exactly who its market is. Hence the boobs. Check out some of their other material.

I suppose some people could say "yeah, but there's not very many boobs." Doesn't matter: neither my wife, my mom, nor my grandma would appreciate it, and I will not have that material around for my daughter. No reason to reinforce the bimbo sex object stereotype. Like we don't get enough of that in the media. It would be like someone saying "yeah, but there's not very many phalluses in this book." One Is Too Many.

What do boobs and phalluses have to do with Traveller, anyway? (That's rhetorical; please don't answer).

Exactly: it's puerile, and just detracts from the game.

Their market could be larger, too (say, by trying to attract other types of players who aren't titillated by cheesecake). There's plenty of inspirational sci-fi art that's not titillating.
 
It violates GDW/FFE's decency standards for art in Traveller products due to its (usual) sexualization of women.
No, that's what would be wrong with a lurid picture. I'm sure that many pictures of pole dancers are lurid, but you can have lurid pictures of ballet dancers and swimmers and track runners too.

Lurid depictions of women are a clear violation.
And I wouldn't dream of arguing against that.


Hans
 
Huh. So I have a different PDF I downloaded in April, and it has totally different art.

No cheesecake at all.

Much higher percentage of white folks in the first half.

Whoever is doing the art on page 57 and 58 and 81 and 162, I love them. Those pieces were in the old book, too. I think it's Carlos Nunez de Castro Torres (a great Spanish author, but he's lighter-skinned than his pictures in MGT).
 
Anyway, kudos to whoever decided MGT needed to redo its art in the Core Rulebook and get rid of the cheesecake. I'm sad they didn't use that opportunity to improve other kinds of representation.
 
[m;]The issue of race and gender bias in the art is a subject that is of interest for discussion in a level-headed manner.[/m;] Unfortunately, it's also a strongly political issue.

[m;]I am waiving the no politics outside the pit for this thread[/m;]

[m;]Only in so far as is needed to discuss the issue of representation of minorities EXCLUSIVELY in the context of Traveller products.[/m;]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top