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Resource Scarcity in the Far Future
- Thread starter Bartleby
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
From Jupiter? How did they get there?
Only slip-drives are optimized for use of banana peels.
About three years ago I compared ammonia, methane, and water in terms of mols of H per liter, and was surprised that ammonia edged out the others, 120 vs 105.5 and 111 respectively.
Ship starts with some refined fuel onboard before the skim run, burns it during the process (this is subusumed in overhead use) and this void space in the tanks is used for processing.
In other words,, the 4-week (or 1-trip) fuel clock starts before the skim run does. (Note that this argument is stronger under rules systems that require significant fuel burn for acceleration.)
For cracking water to H2 and O2, it's easy: L-H2O is denser than the L-H2 it yields.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I know it is, so why not keep water in your fuel tanks and refine as you go?
Fuel tankage is already a bit too good - it is meant to contain liquid hydrogen and the pumps necessary to shift it to the drives, and yet no internal ship volume or mass is allocated to that machinery.
Now we need a system of compartmentalizstion so that you can have unrefined fuel in one set of tanks and the refined stuff in others.
Not to mention instant refrigeration so that the hot plasma scooped from the gas giant as you do mach 25+ through the upper atmosphere is cooled from plasma to liquid before it can melt the fuel tanks.
Fuel tankage is already a bit too good - it is meant to contain liquid hydrogen and the pumps necessary to shift it to the drives, and yet no internal ship volume or mass is allocated to that machinery.
Now we need a system of compartmentalizstion so that you can have unrefined fuel in one set of tanks and the refined stuff in others.
Not to mention instant refrigeration so that the hot plasma scooped from the gas giant as you do mach 25+ through the upper atmosphere is cooled from plasma to liquid before it can melt the fuel tanks.
Dunno. It's obviously Not Done, as there's no canon (that I know of), in any the editions, of ships filling their tanks with with water. Same reason drop tank are apparently far more problematic than perhaps they should be.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
One that I use is the invented element Organisium. This is a super-heavy, island of stability, long-lived, radioisotope that is only found occasionally and is usually only formed in the core of neutron stars. It is super rare as a result and has few, if any, industrial purposes. Organisium deposits--at least the known ones--are all small and very rare. The stuff is extremely valuable.
What it does have however, is its rarity. A small amount is encased in a small gold bar about the size of a largish coin. The amount of Organisium inside the bar / coin is embossed on it along with the date of manufacture. This allows most TL 10 + -ish societies to test the bar for decay rate, presence of decay isotopes, etc., such that it can be determined that Organisium is present and that the amount remaining is accurate with the data on the bar.
The value is determined by the amount of Organisium in the coin / bar and generally runs from 1,000 cr to 10,000 cr. The common two I use are the "sliver" and "light sliver." The sliver is set at 5,000 cr, and the light version at 1,000. This allows players a form of portable cash money that is widely, if not universally, recognized.
Counterfeiting the bars / coins would be difficult because you'd need a way to fake the Organisium. On the other hand, if you are into mining, exploration, or that sort of thing, finding a deposit of Organisium somewhere would easily set you up for life. You can see where this is going...
What it does have however, is its rarity. A small amount is encased in a small gold bar about the size of a largish coin. The amount of Organisium inside the bar / coin is embossed on it along with the date of manufacture. This allows most TL 10 + -ish societies to test the bar for decay rate, presence of decay isotopes, etc., such that it can be determined that Organisium is present and that the amount remaining is accurate with the data on the bar.
The value is determined by the amount of Organisium in the coin / bar and generally runs from 1,000 cr to 10,000 cr. The common two I use are the "sliver" and "light sliver." The sliver is set at 5,000 cr, and the light version at 1,000. This allows players a form of portable cash money that is widely, if not universally, recognized.
Counterfeiting the bars / coins would be difficult because you'd need a way to fake the Organisium. On the other hand, if you are into mining, exploration, or that sort of thing, finding a deposit of Organisium somewhere would easily set you up for life. You can see where this is going...
Gold-pressed Lanthanum is the typical ploy . . .
Because you need a LOT of it at Jump initiation. And you might need that much at the 10D line (at that point a jump is quite risky under CT rules, but not necessarily a TPK as it would be before then -- especially if you can exit jump with fuel for a J1).
I see what you did there.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
I think I am confused between the labels for 2 processes. So processing raw methane/water into liquid H fuel for the ship, and processing the newly-processed liquid H fuel into, for want of a better term, "processed liquid H", which doesn't have the penalty that may cause misjump and requires special gear on board to produce, and which is generally commercially available at higher-rated starports.
And at this point, I have also lost the thread of the discussion. but I have a side comment based on this bit:
And at this point, I have also lost the thread of the discussion. but I have a side comment based on this bit:
What was the mols per liter for liquid H? If it's more than the examples, I would think you'd be obligated to process into liquid H or your full fuel tank won't be full. If liquid H has fewer mols per liter, then you're better off storing it in the raw form and doing a Just-In-Time conversion to keep your plant running.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
14 cubic metres is 1000kg of liquid hydrogen is... 1000kg of liquid hydrogen
14 cubic metres of water is 14,000kg of water of which 1/9 is hydrogen... 1,556kg of hydrogen
14 cubic metres of liquid ammonia is 9,548kg of which 3/17 is hydrogen... 1,685kg of hydrogen
14 cubic metres of liquid methane is 5,936kg of which 1/4 is hydrogen... 1,484kg of liquid hydrogen
14 cubic metres of water is 14,000kg of water of which 1/9 is hydrogen... 1,556kg of hydrogen
14 cubic metres of liquid ammonia is 9,548kg of which 3/17 is hydrogen... 1,685kg of hydrogen
14 cubic metres of liquid methane is 5,936kg of which 1/4 is hydrogen... 1,484kg of liquid hydrogen
"Just in time processing" is a LOT of processors. Most process Tonnes per Hour and you need Tonnes per Minute to feed the Jump Drive.
I wanted to piggy-back on this data to discuss the question about filling the tank and slow processing it into Refined Fuel. Let us assume a ship needs 100 dTons (100 tonnes) of Refined LH2 for jump fuel. That means that the tank only needs 67 dTons (402 tonnes) of METHANE skimmed from a Gas Giant to yield 100 dTons (100 tonnes) of LH2 after refining.
Let us posit that I install a movable bukhead in the tank and quickly skim a Gas Giant to fill the front 67% of the 100 dTon tank with METHANE and leave the rear 33% empty. I then have the PURIFIER pump METHANE out of the front of the tank and pump the Refined LH2 into the rear of the tank. When the last of the METHANE is refined, the tank will have 0 dTons (0%) in front of the Movable Bulkhead and 100 dTons of LH2 (100%) aft of the Movable Bulkhead.
All of the alternatives to LH2 would work the same ... you only need enough raw stock to create a full tank of LH2, so the tank will be partly empty until it is 100% refined. So a ship CAN scoop and scoot and refine on the way!
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I wonder if there can be a gravitic partition...
I would personally mount a bladder in the center that covers half the tank and just pump cryogenic liquid from one side of the bladder to the other. We already know that LH2 can be stored in fuel bladders in Cargo Holds and pumped into the ship's tanks to extend the range ... so half a bladder inside the fuel tank isn't a technical impossibility.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
They would take up volume as they do if used in the cargo hold.
What is the volume of a Fuel Bladder in a Cargo Hold?
Here is Traveller Wiki:
Doesn't that say that it only requires tonnage if folded for storage, not if used. My bladder is always in use for half the tank ... it just changes which half.
