Rethinking Dreadnought Design

[rancke]

Hans, seriously, since HG2 preceded the Setting, which is the cart and which is the horse?

The setting has been evolving for 35 years¹. You can run adventures in the Third Imperium setting with dozens of different rules sets (not just Traveller versions). When converting ship writeups from HG2 to any other rules set, the conversion would be based on the setting. The Tigress would be converted to a 500,000T ship, not a 75,000T, battleships would be tougher than cruisers, and so on. Even if using HG rules, a lot of us are not TCS afficionados and don't really care all that much if the rules make anything bigger than 75,000T silly. We want our 500,000T Tigresses thank you very much. At least I do. I suppose that I should confine myself to speaking for myself. I think there are others who think as I do, but be that as it may, I'm arguing according to my opinion.

That's why I've always put the Third Imperium setting above any of the Traveller rules versions. To be absolutely honest, none of the Traveller rules sets are really all that good. Oh, 35 years ago the CT rules were amazing. Best first generation rules I've ever seen. But that was 35 years ago and rules are no longer first or even second generation (Except CT and HG2 ).

¹ HG2 has not been supported for 25.​

Hans

 

[Vladika]

I thought we were talking about the screens, not the spinals.

I agree with you about J-4 BBs ... but again, where did the idea that J-4 should be the standard for fighting ships come from? Supplement 9, I think ... and that is clearly broken.

Certainly, below TL15, you need to limit your aspirations to less than J-4 if you want an effective fighting ship (and what's wrong with that if the J-4 x-boat is supposed to represent the "pony express"? You would effect knights in armour to move a little slower ...)

I work on the basis of J-3 as the standard for T13 & 14 front line fighting ships, and J-2 for T11 and T12.

I STRONGLY advocate for J3 Fleets and, based on TCS requiring 20% at one TL less, you will have a number of J2 Squadrons around too.

The J4 crowd says they will out run me, but, to where? The deeper into my territory they penetrate the more damaged their Fleet(s) become and if they want to take, or destroy, a key Planet they will find overwhelming odds waiting for them as I can afford vastly more ships.

Other than a shallow penetration Raid, the Traveller Universe favors the defense.

 

[rancke]

But Hans ... 500KT ships done right DO work ... at TL13 and (to a lesser extent) TL14.

It's only at TL15 that you find you do better having 4 x 75LT and 200KT small change in your pocket than 1 x 500KT

As I've already mentioned, the IN is a TL15 navy and has been for over a century. When you come up with arguments that haven't already been refuted, I'll be happy to pick up the discussion again.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I STRONGLY advocate for J3 Fleets and, based on TCS requiring 20% at one TL less, you will have a number of J2 Squadrons around too.

I think that most (or all?) batrons in FFW were J3. And IIRC the Tigress can't be designed as J4 so should be retconned to J3.


Hans

 

[Amber Chancer]

As I've already mentioned, the IN is a TL15 navy and has been for over a century. When you come up with arguments that haven't already been refuted, I'll be happy to pick up the argument again.


Hans

That's not the refutation of any argument.

My point derives from the game mechanics themselves. It is a universal truism of the way the rules are written, no matter how many contrary "setting" statements are written in supplements which have been produced subsequent to those rules.

The question is whether you have a problem with that conclusion.

You do ... because you want the "setting statement" to be right.

I don't ... because if I see a demonstrably untrue "setting statement" I shrug and say "so the guy got it wrong. That ain't the case in my Traveller universe". I'm happy for it not to be the case because I'm happy with the idea that progress to TL15 will result in a revolution in ship design.

As I said about two dozen posts ago - I suggest we just agree to differ on that point.

 

[Amber Chancer]

And don't forget at those TLs the maximum ship size is limited by computers, so just enlarging the ship to raise the payload is not a possibility. THey need to be a compromiso among jump, armor and weaponry (screens and power included there) to fit into the same ship...

This is only really an issue below TL12

The only ship code that REQUIRES a Model/7 (TL13) computer is Y: 1,000,000 tons

R-X require a model/6 (TL12)

P & Q require a model/5 (TL11)

K - N require a model/4 (TL10)

D - J require a model/3 (TL9)

So at TL9 you are limited to 9,999 tons max
At TL10 you are limited to 49,999 tons max
At TL11 you are limited to 99,999 tons max
And, as stated, at TL12 you can reach all the way up to 999,999 tons

 

[McPerth]

I think that most (or all?) batrons in FFW were J3. And IIRC the Tigress can't be designed as J4 so should be retconned to J3.


Hans

Most Imperial (both, IN and unnamed colonial) and some Zhodani BatRons in FFW are J4, as are all Imperial transport ships. Some CruRons are even J5.

 

[rancke]

Most Imperial (both, IN and unnamed colonial) and some Zhodani BatRons in FFW are J4, as are all Imperial transport ships. Some CruRons are even J5.

My mistake.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Library data is written in game - there are often mistakes, mistruths and outright lies within.

The 3rd Imperium author of Library data sites the BB as supreme because that is what the popular media says. The truth is very different.

 

[mike wightman]

Here is what S9 says about cruisers:

Cruisers: Cruisers are the smallest ships to carry the large spinal weapons needed to cause serious damage to a large armored ship, although most are too lightly armored to stand in the line of battle. They form the cadre of commerce raiding task forces and provide fire support for planetary invasions. Sizes range from 20,000 to 100,000 tons. Cruisers serving with a battle fleet are generally grouped in CruRons of from four to eight ships, while individual ships or pairs of cruisers are used to form the hard core of scouting or raiding groups.

The implication being that some are armoured enough to stand in the line of battle.

Remember that this is written from the perspective of a 3rd Imperium author with tales of the frontier wars and Solomani Rim war to go by.

And why mention armour if the meson gun and meson screen reign supreme?

Anyone who has actually played HG2 can give the answer to that one.

 

[Vladika]

The Tigress

http://mimg.ugo.com/201011/5/4/7/132745/cuts/heavy-metal_786_poster.jpg

 

[rancke]

Library data is written in game - there are often mistakes, mistruths and outright lies within.

And referee information is written in authorial voice - it is supposed to be the straight truth.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Lol.

Here's another thought. The 3rd Imperium setting was retconned to make it a HG large ship universe. Why do that if the rules in HG don't describe combat in the setting?

If there is one canon question I would like answered before I shuffle off this mortal coil it is this - why were there 2 versions of HG in development at the same time and why did HG1 get released if it wasn't the preferred choice?

 

[Vladika]

And why mention armour if the meson gun and meson screen reign supreme?

Anyone who has actually played HG2 can give the answer to that one.

Missiles, Missiles, Missiles
Magic Munchkin Missile Magazines

Your Spinal Meson isn't going to be full factor for long. For that matter your Meson Armed ships aren't going to be around very long if committed to the line prematurely.

 

[rancke]

Here's another thought. The 3rd Imperium setting was retconned to make it a HG large ship universe. Why do that if the rules in HG don't describe combat in the setting?

Has anyone argued that HG wasn't supposed to describe combat in the Third Imperium setting? I certainly would never argue that. I'm just saying that it doesn't do it properly.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

And referee information is written in authorial voice - it is supposed to be the straight truth.


Hans

But the Library Data you refer to is not written as referee information, it is setting fluff (Aslan are a major race - oops no they aren't). The referee info is within the rules of HG2 which you have to take the time to learn, understand, and realise you are not being told the whole truth in Library Data :CoW:

 

[rancke]

But the Library Data you refer to is not written as referee information, it is setting fluff.

There's no indication that the definitions I quote are library data.

The referee info is within the rules of HG2 which you have to take the time to learn, understand, and realise you are not being told the whole truth in Library Data :CoW:

I can't be bothered to spend the time it would take to make myself an expert on HG combat. I'm just going to go with the setting information instead.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

And referee information is written in authorial voice - it is supposed to be the straight truth.
Hans

Hans, while you are cruising about in the INS Verisimilitude, pray, which version is the truth?

(There really is an INS Verisimilitude IMTU, and it's Captain is...:devil

And it's an indestructible BB. No matter how many Cruisers, Battle Riders or Might Midget Missile Machines try to take it on. It's an Artifact of MTU.

 

[mike wightman]

Missiles, Missiles, Missiles
Magic Munchkin Missile Magazines

Your Spinal Meson isn't going to be full factor for long. For that matter your Meson Armed ships aren't going to be around very long if committed to the line prematurely.

Bingo

And the meson gun has such a poor chance to hit/penetrate, especially at lower TLs

Keep initiative and maintain long range and your opponents meson armed ships may as well be sitting ducks, so they have to hide them away in the reserve until they manage to get a short range shot in.

What changes at TL15 is the maturing of meson technology and the ability to field destroyer sized ships with spinal Js, and battle riders with jump 1 engines - stuff that S9 fails to mention.

Within the setting the 3rd Imperium has faced off against the Solomani and Zhodani in previous wars with TL parity, but the TL15 Imperial fleet built to TL14 admiralty strategy is superior to the Zho fleet in the FFW that the flaws are hidden away.

A TL15 fleet designed properly is something the 3rd Imperium is waking up to just as the Rebellion kicks off...

 

[mike wightman]

There's no indication that the definitions I quote are library data.

If not backed up by Library data then it's just your personal opinion. But I happen to know which bits of Library Data and S9 keep colouring your thinking on this - and as I have said, the 'truth' is very different.

I can't be bothered to spend the time it would take to make myself an expert on HG combat. I'm just going to go with the setting information instead.


Hans

But the setting info is fluff, and doesn't bear examination in the same way as Aslan being a major race is setting info...