Revised CT?

[Malenfant]

D20 is surviving because Stores and Gamedesigners bought the lie that D20 will replace all other systems. Since the Designers did, the stores had to follow to some degree; many whent whole hog. Also, the distribution network is KEY.. as many store only buy what their distributor reccomends, and Alliance apparently went WHOLE HOG AND WALLOW pro-D20.

Yeah, but the thing that makes d20 so popular is the OGL. If only WotC could publish d20 material, it wouldn't take over any more than AD&D did (and as it was, that still outsold all the other games). But by having the d20 OGL, it means that anyone can publish games using d20. And other publishers - at least, all the smart ones - though "aha, now we can get in on the D&D market, since if you know D&D then you basically know how to play any d20 game". So they embraced OGL and jumped on the d20 bandwagon. Hunter must have also spotted the opportunity and now we've got T20, and I bet it's doing pretty well for itself as a result (in fact, I'm sure Hunter has already said that it is) - much better than it would have done if it wasn't d20-based.

Distributors do exert some control, but most carry non-d20 stuff, and assuming the distributors stock whatever you're looking for a decent store will gladly order something that a customer wants (if not, go find a decent game store).

But fact is, d20 sells in large amounts. And by selling in large amounts, the shop makes more money. So it's natural that they should make the things that sell most more prominent (though your store does sound somewhat extreme about it).

If they can't - or worse, won't - order things in, or feed you crap about the publisher being dead or whatever, then screw the FLGS and order direct from the publisher - the publisher makes much more money per sale that way. (if publishers weren't so afraid of undercutting the retailers, they could actually sell the product for less than you'd find it in the game store and still make at least twice as much profit off each sale. But that doesn't happen ).

In fact, I wonder if QLI could sell a revised CT exclusive to their own webstore only, without the retailers whining about being left out of it.

 

[Takei]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
They're already dual-statted though.

I realise that the supplements are already dual-statted as I've go them all. The point I was trying to make (badly) is that maybe there are potential CT customers out there that assume because they're published by QLI they must be just for T20.

Sure, and I never said or implied that he was stupid

. I just said that he must be thinking about the bottom line. I don't know how he knows there's enough people out there to warrant selling a Revised CT and actually being able to make money from it though. (plus, people saying "oooh, I'll buy it!" does not mean that they WILL go out and buy it if/when it comes out)

There were plenty of people saying that T20 would tank because there were already enough versions of Traveller out there. I know it's based on d20 which is the most popular system right now, but the comments were still being made.

It's only sensible if it's actually going to bring in more money after production costs, author and artwork payments etc. If it costs QLI more than it gets back, then it's not sensible at all - unless QLI has lots of money to throw around and can afford to lose some, and I don't think that's the case.

You're not saying anything different here than all of us are saying. (This particular line of discussion could go round in circles forever)
Yes it's only sensible if it makes QLI money, but you're assuming it won't, which is an opinion you're entitled to. Hunter has already stated that he thinks there could be a market.

None of us want QLI to make a bad business decision and go under because of it. But something has made Hunter think there is a market for a revised CT. I'm not sure what you do for a living Malenfant, but Hunter's comment was regarding a business he appears to be doing OK in.

In the two areas I play in there is a degree of d20 burnout. More than once I've heard comments about how it's nice to play something different for a change.
I was in a game store in Stockholm last weekend and there was as much non-d20 stuff as there was d20. That's my unoffical market research

I'm looking forward to the playtest.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Aramis:
D20 is surviving because Stores and Gamedesigners bought the lie that D20 will replace all other systems. Since the Designers did, the stores had to follow to some degree; many whent whole hog.

Can we watch the broad sweeping generalizations? I certainly never thought such a thing. I did however clue in fast that d20 WOULD sell well. Until the d20 thing hit our plan was to support CT with new products...

Also, the distribution network is KEY.. as many store only buy what their distributor reccomends, and Alliance apparently went WHOLE HOG AND WALLOW pro-D20.

Yes it is the key, but you are wrong about Alliance. Alliance is THE biggest distributor, so they are going to carry and push the most d20 stuff. They were also the first of the distributors to start getting leary about new d20 material from the slew of new publishers that popped up.

Revised CT is a great Idea. I'll buy it, if only as a reference. But unless my LGS changes, only a scant few of us will ever even see it... let alone buy it.

What we need to do is make more store owners aware of the Traveller brand again more than anything else. If it isn't in the stores no one can see it to even think about buying it. I am looking into various ways we can do this.

It needs mainstream mass-market availability. Waldenbooks, BDalton, Barnes and Noble, Borders, and even Toys-R-Us and KB Toys and Powells Books... This would break it out to a much wider audience. (There are a number of smaller towns where gaming materials are bought almost exclusively at Waldenbooks.)Possibly see if you can cut a printing deal with Baen or some other novel/literature house...

Actually our books ARE carried by Barnes and Noble, Bordes, etc...

Biggest problem with bookchains and toy stores is returnability. For a small publisher it is a killer. The chains order big and then a year down the road you might get half of them back and a bill for a refund on them.

Hunter

 

[mike wightman]

Malenfant's opinion was:

What I don't see the point of is spending time and effort and money rehashing an old system when there's a perfectly decent one - T20 - that needs a few tweaks and that could do with that attention instead.

Fortunately it is Hunter's opinion on this matter that counts, not yours

As for the time, money and effort to develop there are plenty of people on these boards who would voluntarily help with the revision free of charge (I would).
T20, a decent system in need of tweaks?
I agree, but some of those tweaks are major fixes.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Actually, it's well known that d20 is the system that most people buy."

I'll have to take your word for that. It probably is true, simply because there are so many D20 games out there, from dozens of different companies. However, just because people are buying them doesn't mean they're playing them, and it doesn't change the fact that it's a lousy system (and, more importantly, incompatible with "real" Traveller).

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Would CT Revised eat into T20's market?"

Doesn't matter - QLI gets the money either way!

And there are plenty of suckers (like me) who'll buy both.

 

[Gaming Glen]

Originally posted by hunter:
What we need to do is make more store owners aware of the Traveller brand again more than anything else. If it isn't in the stores no one can see it to even think about buying it. I am looking into various ways we can do this.

I just looked through the latest Games Quarterly. QLI isn't listed (or I missed them). Neither is QLI's Traveller products. My partner, who actually manages the store and does 99% of the ordering (and is on the GAMA board), has mentioned that he cannot get any T20 products through his distributors. I want to get Gateway (through regular channels at a wholesale price

) but cannot; same goes for TA1.

Re: stores going to limited stock
I don't like this, neither does my partner. We have some of everything, lots of d20 (too much, some never sold), very little Warhammer (old stuff; GW puts limitations on things so we say no thanks to restocking), some very old GHQ miniatures (modern, WW2 land and naval, WW1 naval), CCGs (anyone want Netrunner? Austin Powers? High Noon?), non-CCG card games, board games, and many miscellaneous things (some day we'll get our website to have a listed inventory... some day...

).


Back to a new CT...
I have no idea if it will sell or not. I said that I wouldn't to counter all those that say they would (didn't want hunter and company to think we're all going to buy it).

I don't think T20 is any more complicated than CT. But then I've played Champions (or the Hero system), which is far more complicated. T20 allows for more character growth (maybe too much, but then I think the XP award charts in d20 are over-inflated). I'd rather see a T20.2, with a easier to use/understand chargen system (too much page flipping for prior history); even though I really don't want to buy a new $45 (probably $50 by then) book. Maybe the new T20 "PHB" can take care of the chargen situation.


Glen

Dragon's Lair Games
Ft. Lauderdale, FL

http://www.adventuregamestore.com/index.html

My partner spends a lot of time scanning the front of each new product and listing it, so take a peak (okay, so he doesn't list the new miniatures we get, i.e., Reaper, Iron Kingdoms, Harnmaster).

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"T20, a decent system in need of tweaks?
I agree, but some of those tweaks are major fixes."

Nothing that a flamethrower couldn't fix...

I remember predicting that D20/OGL would kill off a lot of other systems, way back when the idea was first announced. God, I hate being right all the time...

 

[Malenfant]

What we need to do is make more store owners aware of the Traveller brand again more than anything else. If it isn't in the stores no one can see it to even think about buying it. I am looking into various ways we can do this.

Well, last time I checked my FLGS still can't get in T20 products, because their distributor (New Century Distribution) doesn't stock them. Since they own all three gaming stores on Vancouver Island, that means nobody here can get them.

I remember predicting that D20/OGL would kill off a lot of other systems, way back when the idea was first announced. God, I hate being right all the time...

It only "killed them off" because publishers saw d20 as an easy route to make more money. Some games - like Blue Planet - have disappeared because their publishers didn't give a damn about supporting anything that wasn't d20. But a lot of systems have actually converted over to d20, which at least means that they're more likely to get played. What it has done is whittled the market basically down to the major systems - d20, Palladium, Storyteller, BRP, Tristat, GURPS, HERO, and Silhouette - and there's still plenty to play in those.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I will admit that I have seen T20 in one Waldenbooks, out of 5 in the area. I have yet to see it in Borders. I purchased my copy in a B. Daltons. But it is the only copy I have seen in any of the 4 B. Daltons in the area. (And I do travel the area a bit because I am in sales.) Of the three game stores in this town, which is a much smaller area than the locations of the B. Daltons, the Borders and the Waldenbooks, I have seen T20 on the shelves of one of them. I purchased my Refree screen at a different one, though I never saw the T20 manual there, and the third one never had any of the Traveller material. (Though the Second Store did have the FFE CLassic Adventures on the shelf one day.)

In all cases the stores are more than willing to order the books for me, provided they can find them on their distributor's list, but that works only if I know there is something to order in the first place.

The problem as I see it isn't lack of a distribution channel but lack of shelf presence and lack of product awareness. Get Traveller posters up in game stores. Perhaps two. A Traveller poster that says Order Your Traveller Supplies Here might be a good choice. (Then get the stores a copy of their distributors Traveller order numbers boiled down to a handy reference sheet.)

This way the stores are advertising Traveller, they are ordering it without having it on the shelves and if they have to order enough may start stocking it.

Originally posted by hunter:

It needs mainstream mass-market availability. Waldenbooks, BDalton, Barnes and Noble, Borders, and even Toys-R-Us and KB Toys and Powells Books... This would break it out to a much wider audience. (There are a number of smaller towns where gaming materials are bought almost exclusively at Waldenbooks.)Possibly see if you can cut a printing deal with Baen or some other novel/literature house...

Actually our books ARE carried by Barnes and Noble, Bordes, etc...

Biggest problem with bookchains and toy stores is returnability. For a small publisher it is a killer. The chains order big and then a year down the road you might get half of them back and a bill for a refund on them.

Hunter [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[Gaming Glen]

An idea about the use of different dice:

T20.2 (or your version of T20) could use just 2: the d20 (of course), and d6s for damage, like CT. D4 damage (i.e., a dagger) could do d6-1 (minimum of 1), d8 damage could be d6+1. Criticals double the dice and drop any negative modifiers. This way the new CT (NCT? CT2?) and T20.2 could move a little closer in some rules implementations.

I favor percentile systems (BRP being my favorite), so I think using a d20 is a little better, giving more increments, than CT's 2d6.


Glen

 

[clementk]

FWIW I think that's a viable concept. M&M only uses d20s and F20 only uses d20s and d6s (damage rolls) and both seem fine enough. T20 modern (as in RL modern) and high tech weapons are a bit lower than say Star Wars d20 or d20 Modern anyway.

Casey

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Gaming Glen:
My partner, who actually manages the store and does 99% of the ordering (and is on the GAMA board), has mentioned that he cannot get any T20 products through his distributors. I want to get Gateway (through regular channels at a wholesale price

) but cannot; same goes for TA1.

Which distributors? We stock through Alliance, ACD, Centurion, and Blackhawk here in the states. They all have access to our products and as far as I am aware they have the products in stock. If you are hearing this from one of these distributors, please drop me an email with the name of your rep there so I can call them and see what the hell is going on.


Hunter

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Gaming Glen:
I favor percentile systems (BRP being my favorite), so I think using a d20 is a little better, giving more increments, than CT's 2d6.

"better" depends on what you're after...

A d% and a d20 system give flat probability lines - you have flat 5% chance of getting any number on a d20, and a flat 1% chance of getting any number on a d%. Plus with d20, the probability of rolling a 1 remains the same regardless of how good you are.

Whereas on a 2d6, you are more likely to get middle numbers (6,7,8) than extremes (2,12). A 3d6 would give you more of a bell curve.

Personally I prefer bell-curve engines than flat ones, I think that's more realistic.

(but this is a whole different argument )

 

[CarlP]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I think T20 is what's got people's attention when it comes to Traveller at the moment in the market - not CT - and doing anything to distract from that is probably going to be counter-productive.

What really got _my_ attention was the FFE reprints of the CT books. I've got three of them so far, and fully expect to buy most, if not all, of them. A stroke of genius. Although, I also have T20.

 

[CarlP]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
OK, but in that case why not use d6 Space, or GURPS Space, or anything else that's already out there for that purpose?

Or SHADOWRUN! Bwahahahahahahahaha!! Great mechanics. A d6 system, so you can use all your old Traveller dice, and the conversion of the old supplements is dead easy!

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by CarlP:
What really got _my_ attention was the FFE reprints of the CT books. I've got three of them so far, and fully expect to buy most, if not all, of them. A stroke of genius.

Did you have or were you already familiar with the LBBs or other versions of the game? Or was the first time you'd seen Traveller was when you saw the reprints?

 

[CarlP]

Originally posted by Gruffty:
Nephew: "Kewl! Traveller RPG! PS2 or xBox?"
Gruffty: "Errm, it's not that kind of RPG...."
(Brief explanation of Traveller & RPGs ensues)
Nephew: "Traveller? Never heard of it. Sounds like cr*p to me...." (walks off to play Magic The Gathering!!)

Wow. Once again, I feel so fortunate. My 13-year-old godson is pestering me to run a game for him and his friends. I ran a d20 Oriental Adventures campaign for them for a while. I'm wanting to introduce him to the joys of Traveller. Soon, lad. Soon....

 

[CarlP]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CarlP:
What really got _my_ attention was the FFE reprints of the CT books. I've got three of them so far, and fully expect to buy most, if not all, of them. A stroke of genius.

Did you have or were you already familiar with the LBBs or other versions of the game? Or was the first time you'd seen Traveller was when you saw the reprints? </font>[/QUOTE]I have been into Traveller since the LBB were first published back in the Dark Ages. I didn't have the resources to buy all I wanted back then, so now I'm making up for lost time. I'm hoping my godson's interest will continue, and he'll get into the game, too. It's looking good so far.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by CarlP:
I have been into Traveller since the LBB were first published back in the Dark Ages. I didn't have the resources to buy all I wanted back then, so now I'm making up for lost time. I'm hoping my godson's interest will continue, and he'll get into the game, too. It's looking good so far. [/QB]

Heh. I thought for a moment you were someone who actually first got into Traveller via the reprints, in which case you'd be the first person I'd ever seen to admit to that. Oh well