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Robot ships

The setting itself tells us that something must be happening. It is a biocentric milieu; if there were no downside to using robots, it wouldn't be. The existing rules happen not to explain what it is that's the fly in the oinment. Is that because robots work perfectly and last for decades? Or is it because PCs usually don't need to worry about their robots lasting for decades and any risk of failure is subsumed in such rules as a natural roll of 2 is an automatic failure?

The setting itself says, "A tragic attack against the Sylean Federation, which occurred in -112 in Core sector, helped shape the Third Imperium's current attitudes about robots. A terrorist group rigged one of the Dover-Gabe courier robots to self-destruct, and managed to sneak it aboard a 90,000-ton Sylean battleship. The Empire's Banner was on a goodwill mission in orbit around the world Fornol (Core 1715) when the robot's hydrogen/oxygen fuel-cell exploded. Fornol's premier, two ambassadors, and the Sylean vice-minister were killed, along with a host of ship's officers and crewmen.
The repercussions from this event were so far reaching that the Sylean Federation was nearly thrown into a civil war."

"This disaster prompted twelve worlds of the Sylean Federation to meet on the neutral world of Shudusham to draft an agreement dealing with the issue of weaponry carried by robots."

And later, "...Interestingly enough, the Shudusham Concords encouraged low intelligence in robots, to prevent them from being versatile enough to be used as attack robots unless specifically programmed to do so."

In other words, canon says it's a biocentric milieu not because of something currently happening but because of long-term consequences of past abuse. The "fly in the ointment" is a conservative culture in which the long-term effects of a thousands-year-old interstellar agreement evolving from a shocking incident, an agreement limiting the performance of robots, continues to guide laws and customs in the "current" age. Canon says that the Aslan and Vargr similarly have cultural restrictions limiting the use of bots (for different reasons); that the Zhos are heavy users of bots but that the nobles prefer directly-controlled lower-intel bots to the more independent high-intel bots (and at TL14 don't generally have access to the same levels of intelligence the Imperium might have, were it not hindered by cultural practices); and that, "Hiver robots are sophisticated and robust, able to 'handle themselves' In a variety of environments."

Given that the Hiver's TL15 bots, "...diagnose and treat illnesses, advise on legal matters, negotiate treaty terms with member races, and perform many other tasks which would require years of training for a living creature," and that, "Some Hiver armies have consisted entirely of warbots, with no living members," it's clear that Hiver society is not so biocentric as Imperial society. In fact, the claim of all-bot TL15 Hiver armies bodes well for the potential of TL15 bot pilots

Yes, but would you use the non-existence of rules for breaking and losing hammers to prove that the organization of your choice never buy new hammers, because they bought all they needed many years ago and hammers never break or are oost; the rules say so?

I would - as I think I made very clear - argue the nonexistence of rules to imply that the incidence is low enough not to need rules to cover the event. Players hypothetically are at risk for strokes and heart attacks, but the incidence is low enough that it's silly to roll for them during the course of an adventure. Companies lose employees to such events regularly, but it doesn't mean they stop putting humans at the controls because humans tend to die at importune moments.

Whether the incidence of loss due to a robot pilot encountering something it can't handle - that a human pilot could - is low enough, that's a gamemaster decision and therefore an IMTU thing. Consider the case of the aforementioned xboat: if they lose less than 1 in 50 xboats over 20 years of operation, then they are ahead by replacing the human pilot with a bot; if they lose more than 1 in 50 over 20 years, then they lose money by replacing the human pilot with a bot. Either event's a very low probability, but they would affect basic business decisions. They would be beneath the rules, too infrequent to bother with on a trip-to-trip basis, but they would influence the "texture" of the milieu because businesses would make long-term decisions based on those probabilities. In this instance, since we are presented with an Imperial culture that tends to reflexively eschew use of robots in critical positions, the milieu itself does not inform us, and it becomes our call as gamemaster as to whether bot pilots are cost-effective or not - unless there's some element of canon that speaks more clearly to the issue, which is kind of what I'm asking.
 
The percentages are the amount of CPU that can be synaptic instead of parallel or linear.

The reason the maximum is important is because to make a robot with a high int using linear units takes 40x the volume and 20x the weight compared to making it with synaptic units (though it is considerably cheaper). Assumedly a robot with Pilot-3 wouldn't crash any more often than a human with Pilot-3 (not entirely true, however).

But to have any program that allows your robot to use this intelligence (low autonomous and up) you need a mínimum of synaptic processors, and to achieve IA (once available at TL 17), more of them.

Given that the Hiver's TL15 bots, "...diagnose and treat illnesses, advise on legal matters, negotiate treaty terms with member races, and perform many other tasks which would require years of training for a living creature," and that, "Some Hiver armies have consisted entirely of warbots, with no living members," it's clear that Hiver society is not so biocentric as Imperial society. In fact, the claim of all-bot TL15 Hiver armies bodes well for the potential of TL15 bot pilots.

LBB, page 13, under hiver robots says us that hiver robot brains are always TL 16, so they can do things others (with TL 15 robot brains at best) cannot. That shows us that it's not only a matter of biocentricity (while it can have its part, I won't argue that).
 
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But to have any program that allows your robot to use this intelligence (low autonomous and up) you need a mínimum of synaptic processors, and to achieve IA (once available at TL 17), more of them. . .

Sorry. I was saying the percentages were important because someone else had seemed to be under the impression that 60% synaptic meant it only crashed 40% of the time. I was saying that the synaptic limit was because without it you could build a brain considerably smaller at any tech level.
 
ACS Ships are mostly robot ships

1 Pilot for 2 week in space = no permanent watch keeper at helm, once on trajectory for jump point you read (or sleep or paperwork) until the alarm buzzer tells you that a parameter of the automated systems hit an alarm level.

How long the working hours for the navigator? May be Nav is warming the Helm's chair while the pilot is sleeping? But Nav is no pilot, merely sentient awareness on bridge. (voiding the pasenger compartment as an anti hijacking mesure might be too radical a mesure to be automated)

Of course, you do not "pilot" a ship in jump space, but engine work all the time. One Eng is not "engine watch keeping", he perform scheduled maintenance or sleep until something breaks (as long as there will be bathroom there will be leaking pipes). Once in jump Pilot ant Nav are just sentient whose primary shipboard skills are superfluous.

A Pilot, Nav, Eng crew is essentially running a three watch keeping system having at least one sophont awake at any given time for awareness purpose while most function work themselves on automation/automaton.

Have fun

Selandia
 
ACS Ships are mostly robot ships

1 Pilot for 2 week in space = no permanent watch keeper at helm, once on trajectory for jump point you read (or sleep or paperwork) until the alarm buzzer tells you that a parameter of the automated systems hit an alarm level.

How long the working hours for the navigator? May be Nav is warming the Helm's chair while the pilot is sleeping? But Nav is no pilot, merely sentient awareness on bridge. (voiding the pasenger compartment as an anti hijacking mesure might be too radical a mesure to be automated)

Of course, you do not "pilot" a ship in jump space, but engine work all the time. One Eng is not "engine watch keeping", he perform scheduled maintenance or sleep until something breaks (as long as there will be bathroom there will be leaking pipes). Once in jump Pilot ant Nav are just sentient whose primary shipboard skills are superfluous.

A Pilot, Nav, Eng crew is essentially running a three watch keeping system having at least one sophont awake at any given time for awareness purpose while most function work themselves on automation/automaton.

Have fun

Selandia

Fully agreed. Most CT/MT ships (at least those available to most characters) must have quite a lot of automotion to be crewed by such a small crew, and the place I most disagree with it is in the passenger crew, as I see at least a steward per watch should be in order, just in case some pesky passengers wants full time service.

It's (IMHO) a curious fact that MgT ships need more crew, even though robots seem more frequent there. MgT crews are, IMHO, more logical, but less game adequate, as you need a larger gaming party or some NPC support.
 
ACS Ships are mostly robot ships

1 Pilot for 2 week in space = no permanent watch keeper at helm, once on trajectory for jump point you read (or sleep or paperwork) until the alarm buzzer tells you that a parameter of the automated systems hit an alarm level.

How long the working hours for the navigator? May be Nav is warming the Helm's chair while the pilot is sleeping? But Nav is no pilot, merely sentient awareness on bridge. (voiding the pasenger compartment as an anti hijacking mesure might be too radical a mesure to be automated)

Of course, you do not "pilot" a ship in jump space, but engine work all the time. One Eng is not "engine watch keeping", he perform scheduled maintenance or sleep until something breaks (as long as there will be bathroom there will be leaking pipes). Once in jump Pilot ant Nav are just sentient whose primary shipboard skills are superfluous.

A Pilot, Nav, Eng crew is essentially running a three watch keeping system having at least one sophont awake at any given time for awareness purpose while most function work themselves on automation/automaton.

Have fun

Selandia

I would have to disagree with that. You don't have to have an engineer constantly on duty working on the engine any more than you need a certified engineer sitting in a boat. Likewise you don't need someone continually astrogating any more than a small boat would need someone constantly performing navigation. Sure, on big ships you will always have engineers on duty monitoring the engines and a navigator constantly on duty, but smaller craft can get by without them.

Which isn't to say there isn't some automation. I'm sure most ACS ships will have an autopilot that can be told to fly a preset course and their engines probably have automated systems that can adjust the fraznaters and hoogleshmertz to give more or less optimal performance and some stellar form of GPS that lets you know where you are (in fact Astrogation probably is a job extremely well suited to a robot since you would give it explicit instructions), but that's a far cry from what I would term a 'robot ship'.
 
It's (IMHO) a curious fact that MgT ships need more crew, even though robots seem more frequent there. MgT crews are, IMHO, more logical, but less game adequate, as you need a larger gaming party or some NPC support.

In MGT the minimum starship crew is listed as, 1 Pilot & 1 Engineer. I don't think that is more than in CT or MT...
 
In MGT the minimum starship crew is listed as, 1 Pilot & 1 Engineer. I don't think that is more than in CT or MT...

The mínimum, but the average is quite higher (for ships mostly used by players):

  • Pilots: 1 in CT, 3 in MgT
  • Navigators: 1 in both (except for 200 dton or less ships in CT, that doesn't require any
  • Engineers: 1 per 35 dtons of drives in CT, 1 per 50 dtons in MgT (this might be missleading, as the CT engineer may take care of all drives, while in MgT you need 5 skill specialities or your engineer will work at level 0 in some of them)
  • Medic: 1 per 120 awake passengers or 20 cold ones in CT, 1 per 120 passengers in MgT
  • Gunners: 1 per turret or bay in both cases
  • Officers: none in CT, 1 per 20 crew (rarely more than 1, usually none) in MgT
  • Stewards: 1 per 8 high or 20 middle passengers in CT, 1 skill level per 2 high or 5 passengers in MgT (so, unless your stewards are all level 3+, you need more in MgT)

So, for the typical (unarmed) free trader (MT left aside as is quite more complex to calculate):

CT: Pilot, Engineer, medic, steward: 4 crewmemebers

MgT: 3 pilots, engineer (though unless he has level 5 distributed into the various categories, some of them will be at level 0), medic, 3 steward levels (a steward at level 2 or 2 at level 1): 6+ crewmembers (more probably 7-8).

And in MgT someone must care for the sensors (while in CT this is forfeited and in MT the navigator may do it, as he's skilled on them, at least at 0 level)

Of course, you can go with minimal crew, and rules specify no handicap for it, but should I be the referee, I can vow there will be (that's why this is the average) in permits for trade, passenger attracting, etc...
 
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The mínimum, but the average is quite higher (for ships mostly used by players):

The "average" in MGT is for corporate owned ships. NOT a player owned ship. So, I don't see what you are stating as being true by RAW. Tramps and other independently owned vessels will have just a Pilot & Engineer, per the rules.
 
The "average" in MGT is for corporate owned ships. NOT a player owned ship.

As most things, this is argueable. As I understand it, minimum is for starships in non commercial use, while average is the expected for obtaining the license for commercial use, and full for military (at least combat ships) or luxury ships.

Not being an expert on the matter, but I guess an airplane could fly with less crew tan what you'll find in a commercial one, but it would be difficult for it to obtain the certificate for commercial flights. It can probably fly as a private airplane, though.

So, I don't see what you are stating as being true by RAW.

I myself said there's no handicap in RAW for going with minimal crew, or under average, but, as I added by editing (maybe while you were writhing your answer ;)), I guess if it's called average is due to something.

RAW must left something out or books would be unbearable. Even the 650 pages of T5 don't cover all, for what I've read in this forum, and many things must be inferred from them, that's why there is a referee.
 
As most things, this is argueable.

The rules state that the Average crewing levels are for CORPORATE ships. It doesn't STATE "Commercial" ships. So, everything is arguable but, the RAW is what it is. You can of course house rule and state that it means Commercial rather than Corporate. Every GM can make house rules.
 
Fully agreed. Most CT/MT ships (at least those available to most characters) must have quite a lot of automotion to be crewed by such a small crew, and the place I most disagree with it is in the passenger crew, as I see at least a steward per watch should be in order, just in case some pesky passengers wants full time service.

It's (IMHO) a curious fact that MgT ships need more crew, even though robots seem more frequent there. MgT crews are, IMHO, more logical, but less game adequate, as you need a larger gaming party or some NPC support.
I don't think that is that curious at all, unless you assume that robots cannot function as crew. I would just read that as 'crew must be X, but a goodly portion of X can be robots'.

I know this might seem to fly in the face of some of my earlier statements, but really it shouldn't. Robots can take on roles on the ship. I'm not trying to say that they can't. All I've tried to say is that they need a certain level of human oversight due to their limited autonomous capabilities. On a small ship I could easily see a single human working with various robots. That way if one of the robots decides to start performing engine maintenance at an inopportune time or else the decisions are a bit too complex for the robot brain to handle (should I run into the dangerous asteroid belt to try and get away from the pirates or should I try making a run towards the space port authority?) then the human can step in and provide the critical decision. On a larger ship I could certainly see robots used as a sort of 'force multiplier' (the human engineer has several robot engineers so that they can hold things and lift things while he's making adjustments, reach into areas he would rather not reach into, and run the dog watch for him, alerting him if there's trouble with the engine).

It is just that I don't think robots in the Traveller universe can run absolutely by themselves. For a lot of jobs they need to sort of check in with a human every 12 hours or so and in the case of something unforeseen they might need a human to make critical decision.
 
The rules state that the Average crewing levels are for CORPORATE ships. It doesn't STATE "Commercial" ships. So, everything is arguable but, the RAW is what it is. You can of course house rule and state that it means Commercial rather than Corporate. Every GM can make house rules.

Even accepting your numbers, with RAW a scout cannot be operated by a single crewmember, as there are no provisions in MgT (at least in the books I've read) for a single crewmember to hold multiple positions, and, while a free trader can go with just pilot and engineer, it will be at less efficiency than in CT, as the engineer will have his skill distributed among various specialities, while in CT it will be as good (or bad) in every drive he opperates, and no life support specialist is needed.

This aside, if the ship intends to take passengers, either more stewards or quite more skilled ones are needed.

All in all, for a ship that intends more than just going from place to place risking it at every jump, I keep seeing MgT crews need to be larger (something, as I've already stated, that can be more logical than game wise), even while robots are far more common in MgT than in CT.
 
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In other words, canon says it's a biocentric milieu not because of something currently happening but because of long-term consequences of past abuse. The "fly in the ointment" is a conservative culture in which the long-term effects of a thousands-year-old interstellar agreement evolving from a shocking incident, an agreement limiting the performance of robots, continues to guide laws and customs in the "current" age.
You make some good points here, and I'll retract my statement. But you're overlooking the logical ramification: That if the only thing keeping robots from being used is cultural prejudice then the game rules should mention that effect.

And later, "...Interestingly enough, the Shudusham Concords encouraged low intelligence in robots, to prevent them from being versatile enough to be used as attack robots unless specifically programmed to do so."
Where is this from?

I would - as I think I made very clear - argue the nonexistence of rules to imply that the incidence is low enough not to need rules to cover the event.

So if there are no rules about social restrictions on unarmed robots, the incidence is low enough not to need rules to cover that? Wouldn't that mean that something else has to be the reason why robots aren't used to pilot starships?

Whether the incidence of loss due to a robot pilot encountering something it can't handle - that a human pilot could - is low enough, that's a gamemaster decision and therefore an IMTU thing.
It's not an IMTU thing for the OTU.

Consider the case of the aforementioned xboat: if they lose less than 1 in 50 xboats over 20 years of operation, then they are ahead by replacing the human pilot with a bot; if they lose more than 1 in 50 over 20 years, then they lose money by replacing the human pilot with a bot. Either event's a very low probability, but they would affect basic business decisions.
So since they don't replace the human pilot with a bot maybe they think that they would lose more than that.


Hans
 
Even accepting your numbers, with RAW a scout cannot be operated by a single crewmember, as there are no provisions in MgT (at least in the books I've read) for a single crewmember to hold multiple positions,

MRB Task section gives rules for wearing multiple hats and the penalty therefore.
 
...LBB, page 13, under hiver robots says us taht hiver robot brains are always TL 16, so they can do things others (with TL 15 robot brains at best) cannot. That shows us that it's not only a matter of biocentricity (while it can have its part, I won't argue that).

Oops, you're right. So this means - the brain is TL16, but the body is TL15?

ACS Ships are mostly robot ships...

ACS?

You make some good points here, and I'll retract my statement. But you're overlooking the logical ramification: That if the only thing keeping robots from being used is cultural prejudice then the game rules should mention that effect.

I'm not quite sure how they'd do that. It's like Striker and High Guard discuss nukes, but civilian ships can't have 'em and member governments can't use them - except maybe against the Zhodani: there's no rule per se, just a statement of the realities of the milieu. Book-8 rules describe robot construction and activity, and they have a short section discussing the state of robotics in the various star-faring cultures, but there are no rules imposing the various bits in the state-of-robotics section on robot construction. For example, guidance says Vargr consider use of warbots a weakness, but that wouldn't necessarily prohibit your Vargr player from owning one - he'd just have to deal with the social fallout: "Oh, there's Grugni cowering behind his bodyguard again."

...Where is this from?...

Book 8, page 45.

...So if there are no rules about social restrictions on unarmed robots, the incidence is low enough not to need rules to cover that? Wouldn't that mean that something else has to be the reason why robots aren't used to pilot starships? ...

Where? They probably are piloting starships among the Hivers, those bot-loving freaks. :devil: Among the Imperials, 'cause the idea of a bot at the controls of something that could be programmed to crash into a city is still too scary to deal with. Others, I don't know enough about design to know whether they can be built or not. Darrians aren't mentioned; they might have the tech to manage fairly independent robots, but I don't know about the culture. A Zho noble piloting his own flyer might have a robot pilot as relief pilot, but they're a bit control-freakish - it'd probably be on a pretty tight lash.

Imperials seem to think of bots as their equivalent to Frankenfood.

...It's not an IMTU thing for the OTU. ...

It's not declared in the OTU. The Impies have an unreasonable fear of the things, the Zho like control too much to tolerate much autonomy in robots, the Darrians aren't discussed, and most of the rest are too low tech. The Hivers just might, but there's not a whole lot of adventuring in Hiver space from which to draw examples. All we can say with certainty is that there are skills that robots can use and no obvious rules limiting the use of those skills, but that the Impies look on them the way some people look on Roundup Ready wheat. The known milieu itself is biocentric, but there doesn't seem to be any rule-related reason that some planet in the Julian Protectorate or among the Vegans - or some self-made milieu at TL15 - couldn't adopt robot pilots.

...So since they don't replace the human pilot with a bot maybe they think that they would lose more than that. ...

Maybe. Maybe not. Our dominant example is a culture with a reflexive fear of robots. Again, that's why I'm looking for references that paint a clearer picture.
 
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MRB Task section gives rules for wearing multiple hats and the penalty therefore.

I guess you're talking about CB page 51 under Multiple Actions. If so, I understand it as doing multiple tasks at once, but not about filling multiple positions on a more continuous basis.

Oops, you're right. So this means - the brain is TL16, but the body is TL15?

I guess so, but the full quote of LBB 8 (page 13) hiver robots is:

TL 15, with some 16. Hiver robot brains are always TL 16

So, it seems some Hiver robots are TL 16 (I guess most warbots are), but even lower TL ones have TL 16 brains.
 
I don't think that is that curious at all, unless you assume that robots cannot function as crew. I would just read that as 'crew must be X, but a goodly portion of X can be robots'.

I know this might seem to fly in the face of some of my earlier statements, but really it shouldn't. Robots can take on roles on the ship. I'm not trying to say that they can't. All I've tried to say is that they need a certain level of human oversight due to their limited autonomous capabilities. On a small ship I could easily see a single human working with various robots. That way if one of the robots decides to start performing engine maintenance at an inopportune time or else the decisions are a bit too complex for the robot brain to handle (should I run into the dangerous asteroid belt to try and get away from the pirates or should I try making a run towards the space port authority?) then the human can step in and provide the critical decision. On a larger ship I could certainly see robots used as a sort of 'force multiplier' (the human engineer has several robot engineers so that they can hold things and lift things while he's making adjustments, reach into areas he would rather not reach into, and run the dog watch for him, alerting him if there's trouble with the engine).

It is just that I don't think robots in the Traveller universe can run absolutely by themselves. For a lot of jobs they need to sort of check in with a human every 12 hours or so and in the case of something unforeseen they might need a human to make critical decision.

You have good poins here, but this gives us the paradox that, in the case of pilots, as the three needed are one per 8 hour shift, a single robot brain might fill the three position, as it does not need to rest/sleep.

See also that as repair robots/drones are described in MgT, they can have problems to just do the task you point here (holding/lifting things) due to their size.
 
Isn't there a mention somewhere of the K'kree using robotic smallcraft/fighters?.

Note also that in MgT TCS the example fleet uses robotic fighters rather than manned craft. Saves finding berths for all those pilots ;)
 
I would have to disagree with that. You don't have to have an engineer constantly on duty working on the engine any more than you need a certified engineer sitting in a boat. Likewise you don't need someone continually astrogating any more than a small boat would need someone constantly performing navigation. Sure, on big ships you will always have engineers on duty monitoring the engines and a navigator constantly on duty, but smaller craft can get by without them..

I don't think that we disagree that much, we stress the same point. You can circumnavigate the globe with one skipper as the only crew on your boat (being his own navigator and shipwright) as well as you can cross the Imperium on a type S Scout with only a Pilot. You may say they are small ships so they have small crews. Id says ACS ships are by OTU design small crew ships in part because they tend to be small, but not only for that.

Part of it can be rationalized by the economic of shipping. At a certain point you can have economy of scale allowing you to afford an additionnal crewmember, so Board Of Trade (the "BOT", pun intended) require an additionnal crewmember at a given tonnage, it being a nav or eng... Still, a 600 t subsidized passenger liner require 1 pilot, like a 100t scout, so size can't be all.

At times there is functionnal rationalisation going both ways: you do not need two navigators for the computations can be punched in the computer by one person, but larger engine require more engineers for there is logically more maintenance (and economy of scale allows you to afford it btw).

Note that crewmembers might be organized by watch, but until T5 it is not mandatory to organize a watch system.

Ultimately, the extremely complex and high tech starship credibly works with small crew because we can rationalize that an important part of the High TL content of a system is dedicated to user friendliness of the interface and "magic black-boxing" the operation of the beast (Contradiction on that point require remembering keypunching your programs on light cardboard cards or being able to "Window os" things using CP/M commands;)).

Currently, the level of automation is such on seagoing vessels that very, very large ships could be operated once on high sea by a Cook (the cook being the most important person on board remains on manning requirement) and two bridge crew. At a certain TL, the size of the ship is not that important anymore.

Which isn't to say there isn't some automation. I'm sure most ACS ships will have an autopilot that can be told to fly a preset course and their engines probably have automated systems that can adjust the fraznaters and hoogleshmertz to give more or less optimal performance and some stellar form of GPS that lets you know where you are (in fact Astrogation probably is a job extremely well suited to a robot since you would give it explicit instructions), but that's a far cry from what I would term a 'robot ship'.

Ok don't call it a "robot ship". As WS would say it: "what is in a name..." So we settle "robot ship" for what: anthropomorphic robot taking over functions in a work environment that is ergonomically design for anthropoid? Fine, that is what I do and most players do so when it comes to figuring the rose by its blossom because that is the usual blossom of that rose in Sci- Fi. You may also call it "robot ship" if non ergonomically design for sentients, for that is definitively "robot ship" (and may be to some the only true form of "robot ship").

IMTU, the players crewmembers are trouble shooting/special station maning a largly self operating ship, that is ergonomically designed as an habitat for the anthropoid that provide sentient awareness and response. If ACS are not proper "robot ship", ACS ships are IMTU "Robot capable ships with human crew".

Have fun

Selandia
 
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