S4's Ammo Tweak for T5

[thalassogen]

Oh, I like the idea of throwing dice to determine the number of rounds expended, but I would prefer other multiples:
AimedFire: 1d6 per round
SnapFire: 3d6 per round
AutoFire: 10d6 per round

 

[Supplement Four]

Ammo used = roll xD6 for single fire (x default 1), times N for burst (N defaults 3), times Z for full auto (Z default 30).

And...how often would you make this roll?

I hesitate adding rolls to the game. Tends to bog gameplay down. One of my initial ideas (see the OP link) involved rolling dice, but, instead, I settled on simple and quick ammo depletion every three rounds--which works out to about one time per combat.

Super quick. Super easy (espeically with the weapon descriptors I added). Doesn't add another dice roll to the game. Works well.


As for your system above, what would constitute raising x from the default 1?

Then....you're going to roll a die, multiply it by however many bursts the character makes (how many bursts is he going to make in a one minute abstract combat round), or you're going to multiply it by however many times the character uses Full Auto.

Again, how are you going to figure how many times the character held down the trigger and used Full Auto in an abstract combat round? He could have held it down for a second, firing only a few bullets, or he could have gone through a mag, reloaded, gone through a second mag, then reloaded again, and gone through a third mag. Under the T5 combat round, either situation is covered by a single AutoFire attack throw.

And...THEN...once you have a number, you're going to have exact bullets that were fired. You'll take that from your total ammo--and have to work out how many mags were dropped so that the character can drop that weight.

Hmm....you call that simple and easy to use?o:

Yes - I am a firm believer in simple, situational rolls in CT LBB1-3 fashion.

What I'm reading above doesn't sound simple or in the fashion of CT at all.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Would you like to go through an example and show me how easy it is?

 

[Reban]

The nature of fire - single/burst/full auto - should affect the amount of damage.

The nature of aimed/snap/auto should affect accuracy.

Shoulda/woulda/coulda... the controls don't seem to have any affect on damage, at least to my reading.

What does affect damage is how you use the weapon defined by choosing aimed/snap/auto fire, which works fine but why bother to include controls on weapons except as fluff?

Not really, for two reasons.

I thought not. Thats a plus point of being abstract but there is a need for consistency with how the weapons are defined. Knowing that a weapon has single/burst/full settings should decide if it can be used in Aimed/Auto/Snap Fire. Unfortunately I just can't see it clearly written in the Combat Rules where it should be.

 

[Supplement Four]

Oh, I like the idea of throwing dice to determine the number of rounds expended, but I would prefer other multiples:
AimedFire: 1d6 per round
SnapFire: 3d6 per round
AutoFire: 10d6 per round

I wouldn't mind it if there were an easy way to do it. IMO, throwing dice every round is not the answer.

My first thought on this was to add a part to the Attack phase of the STAMP combat round. But, then I realized how, long term, that would become a real hassle and bog the game down.

Every round: "What? You used Autofire? OK, roll 10D. Add 'em up. Now, divide that amount by the weapon's mag capacity. OK, now take off the appropriate number of mags. And, remember you've spent three rounds from your current mag--we'll need to keep track of that for next time."

And, then, we do that same process for every PC...and then every NPC.



To me, this seems like a lot of game time spent on bullet counting. I don't think it will be quick and easy at all, especially when applied to all combatants, PCs and NPCs alike.

 

[thalassogen]

To me, this seems like a lot of game time spent on bullet counting. I don't think it will be quick and easy at all, especially when applied to all combatants, PCs and NPCs alike.

I guess, that this should be done at the end of combat to estimate what is left in the ammo storage.

 

[Supplement Four]

I guess, that this should be done at the end of combat to estimate what is left in the ammo storage.

I thought of that too, originally. But consider this...

You've just had a five round combat. Now, you've got to remember (track by writing down) each type of attack each character made during those five rounds. This would be a nightmare for the Ref, if he's got a lot of NPCs that survived the fight. I don't think players would like keeping track of their actions from previous rounds, either.

Then, you roll for each combat round that you played out...

"Let's see, I did an Aimed Fire attack. That's 1D of ammo. Round 2, was another Aimed Fire. I'm at 2D now. Round 3? Oh, I did SnapFire. That's 3D, so I'm at 5D.

"Round 4 was AutoFire. That's 10D, so I'm at 15D. And, Round 5 was AutoFire. That's another 10D.

"So, I roll a total of 25D, add 'em all up, subtract that from my total ammo, then divide by my magazine capacity to see how many mags I drop...wait! I fired more ammo than I was carrying!"

See the issues?

Something more simple is needed, imo.

 

[Supplement Four]

RE: Dice Rolling and Ammo Tracking


If there's going to be dice rolling for ammo usage, them my thought is that it's got to be something simple.

I don't like adding more dice throws to that game because it bogs the game down. But, if dice rolling must be used, then it probably needs to be something simple where the roll indicates if a mag was used, or if a number of mags were used. Counting every bullet with a one minute combat round is pretty ungainly, imo.

So, if you used Aimed Fire during the round, your throw should be pretty easy to beat--something like: Roll 1D, and a result of 1 indicates you burned through a mag.

If you used SnapFire, the roll should probably be about a 50% chance that you burned up a single mag, with a smaller chance that you fired a second mag, too.

If you used AutoFire, then the roll should be fairly easy to ensure one mag was used, about a 50% probability that two mags were used, and a chance at a third mag being used up if you roll really high.



The problem with this is two-fold: First, you've got to come up with the dice throws--what's fair and likely, given the circumstances?

The other problem is that you've got to figure how to modify the throws, in a simple, easy manner, to account for various magazine capacities. Because, a 6-round revolver is much more likely to burn through a speed loader than a soldier using a gauss rifle with a 100-round barrel mag.



For these reasons, I abandoned the idea of using dice throws and went with the magazine count method I devised in the OP.

 

[Supplement Four]

GunMaker Steps For Adding Ammo To Your Weapons


Once the weapon is completed using GunMaker, complete the following two steps.

Step 1: Considering the weapon's design, decide on the capacity of the weapon's magazine.

Step 2: Determine the weapon's Ammo codes using the rule in the OP. Record these in the Weapon Description as part of the LongName or in the Effects section of the Weapon Extension.





USING THE AMMO CODES IN THE GAME

On every third round (or on the last round of combat, should combat last only one or two rounds), mark off magazines as indicated below.

AmF Code: If the character used Aimed Fire during all three combat rounds (or any combination of no fire and Aimed Fire), then mark off ammunition magazines as designated by the AmF code.

SnF Code: If the character used the weapon for SnapFire at any time during the three combat rounds, then mark off ammunition as designated by the SnF code.

AuF Code: If the character used the weapon for AutoFire at any time during the three combat rounds, then mark off magazines as designated by the AuF code.

 

[BytePro]

...
Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Would you like to go through an example and show me how easy it is?

Well, looks like you only read but one line...

In common cases, ammo can be ignored till end of combat, except when ammo is low to start with, or PC is shooting full auto. If PC is using selective fire, then there is a reason. Calculating ammo at the end of a combat could involve whatever detail is appropriate - per turn, or just multiply by turn count. Or, just roll for remaining ammo. Calling for ammo updates is a Ref thing, doing the work doesn't have to be - Players like to roll their own dice. And sometimes its useful to keep Players occupied.

Okay, some simple examples. [Oops - noticed I wrote x30 for full auto - intended to write x15 as default... ]

Marine with 30 round/mag rifle with 5 full mags - using defaults of 1D6 for single shots, x3 for bursts, x15 for full auto:

Turn 1 - No update. (Max 3 mags per turn on full auto).
Turn 2 - Update only for full auto both turns (Marines in Aliens ).
Turn 3 - Again, no update except for full auto.
...
Turn 9 - If burst has been used for all the turns, then there is a chance of out of ammo at end of turn, otherwise no update.​

If my Marine is using a 45 round/mag rifle with 8 full mags (Soviet) - same rate of use:

Turn 1 - no update.
Turn 2 - no update.
Turn 3 - no update.
Turn 4 - Update only if full auto for all turns...​

Once an update has been done and ammo is looking low - Players will often make judgement calls to lower selected fire - at which point one can often then ignore ammo till end of combat. Again, let the Players keep track of their ammo - they usually only have one PC to manage and it gives them something to do.

Now I'm using simple multipliers (reflecting selective fire) - something many folks just aren't keen on. Tables easily address this. Multiple dice also could remove multiplication - certainly consistent with T5 - the curve just would tend to the middle values. <shrug>

As for doing this with every NPC - why? Defining the number of mags a NPCs seems overkill. Simple rolls should suffice when I want to check if they are out of ammo without just resorting to fiat. I'm not interested in a wargame in the middle of my roleplaying game - nor making up useless extra work for myself as the Ref. However, I also want the most roleplaying bang for my efforts - and ignoring ammo or oversimplifying its use into a preset value undermines a rather important drama element, IMO.

 

[Supplement Four]

OK, Reban, I looked at the Controls page from GunMaker, page 256.

Now can I just throw a huge spanner out there and get your thoughts?

I've been comparing AimedFire, AutoFire and SnapFire on p218 and the Controls section from GunMaker on p256 that lists Single, Burst and Full. Here's the thing, I think they are entirely unrelated.

Here's how I read it.

Page 256 tells us how to read the Weapon Descriptions. There are some sample weapon descriptions on page 240.

One of them is the: ABC-9 Advanced Battle Rifle-9 R=5 Cr800 3.2kg Bullet-5.

Let's take it step by step--

Advanced - means the weapon is significantly better than the standard version and features lower weight and excellent ergonomic design. Mechanically, this is reflected in the weapon's lowered weight (3.2 kg) and its higher damage rating (5D). That's from page 246 of GunMaker.

Battle - Indicates that the weapon is not capable of either Burst or Full Auto Fire. Pg. 256.

Rifle - Tells us that the weapon is capable of only Single Fire, so, in game terms, the weapon can only be used for Aimed Fire.

9 - This identifies the TL at which the weapon is commonly manufactured.

R=5 - Tells us that the maximum effective range for this weapon is Range Band 5, Very Long, 1,000 meters.

Cr800 - Tells us the cost of the weapon.

3.2 kg - Tells us the weapon's mass.

Bullet-5 - Tells us the weapon's damage, should a hit be scored, and the damage gives us an idea of the weapon's penetration capability (5D is very good penetration).

Single fires one shot. Burst fires three shots. Full fires shots until the trigger is released. I can't find any game effect related to these three modes. All we need to know for Personnel Combat is if the weapon is capable of automatic fire.

According to page 214, both SnapFire and AutoFire require weapons capable of either Burst, Full Auto, or Continuous fire.

So, there's your connection to Controls that you were looking for. See the line above "Rifle" and "Battle".

 

[aramis]

Finally just a poke from a non American gun-nut but I'm surprised no one has started the rant/meme about "This is a magazine and this is a clip. Learn the difference!"

Having gone shooting with a competent shooter or two, Bill could reload his SKS with stripper clips as fast as Danny could his AR-15. And the old geezer with his M1 was faster than either. The carriage of said clips vs detachable box magazines is slightly more an issue with clips, but, in general, US parlance has dropped the distinction. They both hold ammo for a specific weapon.

It's like Canon/Rifle/Pistol vs Gun... technically, only one of those three is a Gun.

 

[Supplement Four]

In common cases, ammo can be ignored till end of combat, except when ammo is low to start with, or PC is shooting full auto.

In a roleplaying situation likely to happen in a Traveller game, a character could just as easily pick up a revolver with six shots in it as he is a gauss rifle that has a 100 round box.

Unless the PCs are always prepped for combat, which doesn't sound resonable to me, then ammo can't be ignored until the end of combat. If you go five rounds--five minutes--are you going to allow the revolver character to get by on just six rounds?

If PC is using selective fire, then there is a reason. Calculating ammo at the end of a combat could involve whatever detail is appropriate - per turn, or just multiply by turn count.

Which bogs the game down.

Or, just roll for remaining ammo. Calling for ammo updates is a Ref thing, doing the work doesn't have to be - Players like to roll their own dice. And sometimes its useful to keep Players occupied.

Extra dice rolls bog the game down.



Your examples are all suited for military operations. A Marine with 5 30 round mags. Another Marine with 8 45 round mags. These guys are loaded for combat.

What about the typical Traveller characters that carry non-military grade weapons? What about characters using handguns, that typically have low count magazines.

Your system has to account for these types of combatants and do it in an easy manner. You won't have many "No Update" turns with these guys.

And thus, the game is bogged down with ammo counting.

As for doing this with every NPC - why? Defining the number of mags a NPCs seems overkill.

There are intances in a game where it would come into play.

Take a simple assault on a warehouse near a starport. The security guard carries a revolver. I'd give him two extra speed loaders.

In a decent firefight, the security guard could easily go through his ammo before getting himself killed. That'd be a boon for the players--and a reason for the NPCs to have ammo tracked.

And, with my system...IT'S EASY!

I know the guard has 3 speed loaders. On round three, I simply look at his weapon's Ammo Codes then mark off appropriately given the attack types he has made.

 

[Reban]

According to page 214, both SnapFire and AutoFire require weapons capable of either Burst, Full Auto, or Continuous fire.

So, there's your connection to Controls that you were looking for. See the line above "Rifle" and "Battle".

Thanks for pointing that out. I've been sifting through the the Combat Rules and although it made sense that that should be the case I couldn't find it in the description contained in the body of the STAMP section.


Yeah I also see the confusion over Battle because there is a section at the start of GunMaker that says:

Auto. An abbreviation for Automatic and another term for Battle (used about half the time). When a weapon is designated Battle by the tables or by design, Auto may be used instead. For example, a Battle Rifle may also be called an Auto Rifle.

But as you've pointed out Battle doesn't add Burst or Full. What it means is that a Rifle with Battle can also be called an SLR or self loading rifle. I love it when the rules hardly ever contradict themselves or leave something out

 

[Supplement Four]

But as you've pointed out Battle doesn't add Burst or Full. What it means is that a Rifle with Battle can also be called an SLR or self loading rifle. I love it when the rules hardly ever contradict themselves or leave something out

Yes, the designation "Battle" does some other things to the weapon, too. Check out page 252. "Battle" indicates that the weapon is normally created at one TL higher than a regular rifle (according to page 251, that's TL 5, so a Battle Rifle is minimum TL 6), doesn't change the range or the mass of a regular rifle, and costs 20% less than a regular rifle. It also has +1 Burden.

One thing I don't understand, though, is the H2 and D2 column on page 252. This seems to say that the Battle Rifle has a secondardy bullet hit of 1D.

Doesn't H2 mean hits applied after penetration?

 

[Reban]

No you use the sum of the same Weapon Effects.


So if You get Bullet-1 and then Bullet-1 from another descriptor the weapon ends up with Bullet-2


H2 has nothing to do with applying the Effect after Penetration.

All Weapon Effects H1, H2 and H3 are applied against Armor or Protections as appropriate. Where Armor or Protection is overwhelmed the excess that is not absorbed or deflected becomes Injury or Damage.

I think when testing if a weapon overwhelms armor you can add up Weapon effects that attack Armor (or the same Protection), so Bullet-1 and Frag-1 would result in 2D vs the targets AV as both Frag and Bullet must penetrate armor.

There isn't any "secondary effects", whatever makes it past Armor or Protection become either Injury or Damage and is resolved.

 

[Supplement Four]

No you use the sum of the same Weapon Effects.


So if You get Bullet-1 and then Bullet-1 from another descriptor the weapon ends up with Bullet-2

Gotcha. Makes sense. Thanks for that. That's how weapons get Bullet-5 damage and such.

Where'd you read that, anyway?

 

[Reban]

Thats from spending the last month or so puzzling it out and reading what others have written on CotI. Thank goodness for smarter people than me!

I've just read your review of Personnel Combat and I really liked it. Its the clear explanation that the chapter requires to be usable. I'm not completely sure you've got Wounding correct but I'll have to re-read it again.

Thanks.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm not completely sure you've got Wounding correct but I'll have to re-read it again.

Really? The text on wounding seems to be lifted straight out of CT. How could I get that wrong???!!! I'm a CT GM!!!!o:

Let me know if I screwed it up, somehow.

 

[Reban]

Ah there's the Hit System V0 thats lifted straight from CT as you say and is included because its "useful in some situations".

As part of the STAMP combat, Injury is detailed on p222 and relates the Effect to the Injury and the details what it Inflicts. Different effects cause different injuries and are assigned to a hit location using 2D

Theres also a more detailed Battle Damage system on p232


GunMaker has a column marked Hits(v1) which I think is supposed to be related to the Hit System V0.

I may be completely wrong because its late.

 

[Supplement Four]

Ah there's the Hit System V0 thats lifted straight from CT as you say and is included because its "useful in some situations".

Yes, and NPCs use the simple system.

As part of the STAMP combat, Injury is detailed on p222 and relates the Effect to the Injury and the details what it Inflicts. Different effects cause different injuries and are assigned to a hit location using 2D

I think you've got it wrongly.

Detailed Effect character damage is System V0, on page 215. After penetration.

This is verified on page 220. See the chart? Look at the Bullet effect. It must penetrate armor, and if it does, hits are applied to C1, C2, and C3.

How are they applied? Via the V0 System.

Page 222 is only a Hit Location system. Every round that you are hit, you roll on this chart to see where you were hit. Damage is the same as the V0 System.

See the Injury chart? All that tells you about a Bullet wound is that its severity is decided by Total Hits/2. You're the one who tole me that, I think!

Also note the hit location table on page 222. It states, "If Injury is Hits or Cuts, Consult Hit Location Table. For other Injury, go directly to Injury Table."

So, most of the time, you won't check the Injury Table unless you've got some other type of Damage type. For example, Bang damage renders the character deaf for a number of rounds equal to the total Damage.

So...

The process of getting hit with a slug thrower in T5 is this:

1. Roll Damage and check for Armor Penetration.

2. Check for any Effect damage (usually, there isn't any with slug throwers).

3. Use System V0 to apply Damage. (NPCs use the shorthand method).

4. Roll Hit Location for the hit.


The term "hit" gets confusing because a character can only be hit once by any opponent during the combat round--as a result of a successful attack task. A character can get hit multiple times during the round, but each hit must be by a different successful attack throw from a different attacker.

And, then, the game refers to damage points as "hits".

So, if I roll to hit my target, and am successful, I hit him. It's considered one hit (see pg. 214, under Penetration).

I roll my damage, which, say, is 3D, and I get a 15. My target wears AV 5 armor, so damage that penetrates is 10 "hits" (see pg. 214 under Potential Damage).

Then, the defending player applies those "hits" to his three physical scores using the V0 system (this is on pg. 215).

Then, the hit location system is used, just for color, I think, to note where the character was hit (pg. 222).

Theres also a more detailed Battle Damage system on p232

That's for vehicles.

The term "Injury" is used for damage to characters. "Damage" is used to for damage to objects. I've seen this in the text somewhere, but look at page 220 and page 221. Pg. 220 chart is about Injuries Beings. Pg. 221 is about Damage Objects.

GunMaker has a column marked Hits(v1) which I think is supposed to be related to the Hit System V0.

I think that's what you said earlier up thread. H1 is the first damage die assigned the weapon. You add H2 and H3 to this, if applicable.