S4's Ammo Tweak for T5

[BytePro]

If you go five rounds--five minutes--are you going to allow the revolver character to get by on just six rounds?

Sure - if he's aiming and not firing multiple rounds per turn. Are you really reading what you post?

In your method he goes how many rounds again - and how does that vary again?

Tracking each round he may be out in the first minute - or, very unlikely, but possible, 6 minutes. More than likely he's gonna be out around the 4th... but its an added drama and believability element for very little effort. Players rolling dice isn't exactly a clock stopper in my universe... they can check for ammo every round for all it would matter - and a useful activity while combat is being resolved for everyone.

My military examples are fairly standard military load outs. (8-45 round mags in two pouches was standard kit for the widely used Soviet RPK-74).

Regards your 'typical' Traveller - if the single shooter is carrying 30 rounds there's no need to check till at least the end of the 5th turn. However, if the PC only has a single load out in a 6 shooter - each bullet is pretty significant. I want a mechanic that handles that, yet also handles the armed for bear (that's not typical?) PC and a diverse variety of weapons with regards to ROF and ammunition - and in an unpredictable fashion.

 

[Supplement Four]

Sure - if he's aiming and not firing multiple rounds per turn. Are you really reading what you post?

In your method he goes how many rounds again - and how does that vary again?

In my system, he would use 2 re-loads.

But, I thought your system was supposed to be more specific, which is why I made the point.

Regards your 'typical' Traveller - if the single shooter is carrying 30 rounds there's no need to check till at least the end of the 5th turn. However, if the PC only has a single load out in a 6 shooter - each bullet is pretty significant. I want a mechanic that handles that, yet also handles the armed for bear (that's not typical?)

Right. And, I'm don't think what you've shown me so far does the trick. I think your system is geared towards military load outs for Marines with five 30 round mags, not a starport thief with a six-shot sub-compact or a warehouse guard, using a revolver, with two extra reloads.

I think once you start rolling for those types of characters, your system is going to spend a lot of game time rolling for ammo count.

 

[BytePro]

In my system, he would use 2 re-loads.

Yes, your system breaks down to X rounds per turn. Its easy, sure. But it significantly lacks drama and breaks the random abstract nature of the system, IMO.

My interest is specific only in count when needed - and also keeping the spirit of the unpredictable.

Right. And, I'm don't think what you've shown me so far does the trick. I think your system is geared towards military load outs for Marines with five 30 round mags, not a starport thief with a six-shot sub-compact or a warehouse guard, using a revolver, with two extra reloads.

Huh - your system is designed around mags! Its focused on reload counts in a system where reloads are abstracted away, while also making all weapons firing rates and mags essentially the same. As I posted before - if one is gonna count mags, might as well count bullets. And as Ref, I leave that to the Players, there is generally no need for the same treatment with regards to a troop of NPCs (a few guards - no problem). I also stated from the beginning that I have no [good] solution to the T5 ammo problem... and some reasons I don't think yours suffices (which haven't been addressed).

Now, the 'system' I predominantly use (obviously not with T5) is abstract, situation and roll dependent - but, like I said, I mostly avoid the issue with energy weapons being my norm. When more traditional munitions are used, I resort to something very similar to what I outlined here - and its always worked out well (i.e. not bogging down the game - the ultimate no-no in my book. I don't lookup rules nor bother to write logs while playing, that's a game killer in my opinion). But I also don't use averaged '1 minute turns', so one bullet actions and random burst volleys are more naturally accounted for in a non-belief shattering way. (My turn timings are abstract and adjusted to roleplay.) And popping off 3-5 mags on full auto is more likely going to result in an unusable weapon IMTU.

From what I've seen so far - largely from your posts on T5 (Thanks!) - it looks like there are more fundamental issues to be addressed before ammo handling can even be suitably treated. I feel like combat is promising, but incomplete...

 

[Supplement Four]

Yes, your system breaks down to X rounds per turn. Its easy, sure. But it significantly lacks drama and breaks the random abstract nature of the system, IMO.

But...we're dealing with a one minute round!

I don't see why we'd roll for something when it can and should easily happen within that time period.

Rolls are for dramatic moments.

As I posted before - if one is gonna count mags, might as well count bullets.

And, maybe you missed the part where I pointed out that counting bullets requires a second step to figure how many bullets are in each mag. You need to know how many mags are used for character load. Counting bullets ain't gonna tell you that--it's just going to make the ammo tracking system more complicated.

Now, the 'system' I predominantly use (obviously not with T5) is abstract, situation and roll dependent - but, like I said, I mostly avoid the issue with energy weapons being my norm.

Part of our disconnect here is that we are talking about two different games. If I were talking CT, then I'd have a different tune. But, I'm not talking about CT. I made the ammo rule T5-centric, not CT-centric.

I wouldn't use this idea at all in a CT game.

From what I've seen so far - largely from your posts on T5 (Thanks!) - it looks like there are more fundamental issues to be addressed before ammo handling can even be suitably treated.

I think the ammo issue is one of the biggest issues--mainly because most of the other problems can be ignored or easily changed by the Ref.

The ammo issue is a whole other ball of wax, requiring a system, and possibly (as I have done) an addendum to GunMaker.

I feel like combat is promising, but incomplete...

I can't argue there.

 

[Supplement Four]

@BytePro

The one dicing method I do like for tracking ammo is to have one colored die among the task throw sever double duty as an "ammo die".

When the task throw is made, you'd count the die normally, but you'd also use that one die to represent ammo usage for the round.

You could do something where the ammo die tells you either how many rounds were fired or how many mags were used, and this can be modified by the attack type used (Single, Burst, Full Auto).

Something like this might work:

          Attack Type:  [U]Single[/U]     [U]Burst[/U]     [U]Full Auto[/U]
[U]Ammo Die[/U]
    1                    0           1            2
    2                    1           2            3
    3                    2           3            4

The body of the table shows mags used. That's just straight off my head for illustration purposes. If this idea were to be developed, a lot of thought would have to go into the acutal numbers that appear in the table.




I see some problems, even with this, though.

First off, this would bog the game down more than my current system, as the players would do bookkeeping on magazines every combat round instead of every three. And, my system will average once per combat, or so.

Second, I don't see a player ever committing to using Full Auto Fire because he can use SnapFire and AutoFire attacks just as easily using 3 round Bursts. Here, if you want Full Auto to be a sometime option, you'd have to work it into an Ammo Die result (maybe a 6 on the ammo die means Full Auto if AutoFire is used) or make some other game reason that gives Full Auto some advantage that the players may want to use at some point.

Either way, you're making up even more house rules for the game, and with the first option, you are forcing a player to use Full Auto--which should be player controlled.



I still think my OP system works best for the abstract nature of the T5 combat round, though.

 

[Reban]

I've been reading your explanation in other threads and I think you've explained it correctly. On initial reading I took the "V0" system as an extra method to speed up single and mass combat but you've convinced me thats its the underlying basis of the system.

Keep up the explanations, you're making things I was sure I understood a lot clearer.


On Battle Damage p232:

That's for vehicles.

The term "Injury" is used for damage to characters. "Damage" is used to for damage to objects. I've seen this in the text somewhere, but look at page 220 and page 221. Pg. 220 chart is about Injuries Beings. Pg. 221 is about Damage Objects.

Actually its for way more than vehicles, "battle damage" is probably a bad name for it. It covers vehicles, AND ships, Heavy weapons to small tools, and animals/aliens or biological creatures.

Have you noticed that "Weapon Effects" like Burn, Elec, Cold etc. can be used to simulate Damage or Injury from any source?

For example if a Character grabs an exposed electric wire you can now subject them to a shock rated as Elec-N and expose them to a fair amount of damage and injury compared to a hit by a similar weapon.