Saving T5 or How to make an old Traveller actually accept and like T5?

[mike wightman]

Obviously, and I am taking the time to give feedback on their website to improve it.

The first draft of the rules introduced too many new rules, the second draft sticks much closer to the MgT CRB. The trouble being that MgT CRB requires errata, so to correct LiftOff you need up to date MgT errata.

 

[rhialto]

Obviously, and I am taking the time to give feedback on their website to improve it.

The first draft of the rules introduced too many new rules, the second draft sticks much closer to the MgT CRB. The trouble being that MgT CRB requires errata, so to correct LiftOff you need up to date MgT errata.

Ah, thank you: I based my opinion on the 1st draft, and just downloaded the 2nd, which is much closer to MgT. In fact, it is obviously identifiable as a lite version of MgT now.

 

[mike wightman]

Play it, and compare it to the MgT CRB as you do so.

If you find anything that contradicts then post it to the 13 mann forums.

The good thing to come out of the Traveller TV kickstarter is that Lift Off gets more time in play test, error check and improvement.

 

[Ulsyus]

Forgive my ignorance here, I've lost an acronym somewhere I think. CT=Classic Trav, MgT=MegaTrav, TNE we all know, MT=? T4 set in Milieu 0?

Again, this sounds like a dumb question at this point in the threat but is the new starter set for the MegaTraveller rules set?

 

[atpollard]

Forgive my ignorance here, I've lost an acronym somewhere I think. CT=Classic Trav, MgT=MegaTrav, TNE we all know, MT=? T4 set in Milieu 0?

Again, this sounds like a dumb question at this point in the threat but is the new starter set for the MegaTraveller rules set?

MT=MegaTraveller
MgT=Mongoose Traveller

 

[robject]

There will be a quiz on these abbreviations on Friday.

(Just kidding. Flashing-back to my school days.)

 

[David Johansen]

Exactly. Most seem to either dislike T5's mechanics or tolerate them. Those that play T4 and T5 seem to be neutral about the system. I haven't seen too many people come out and say how much they love the T5 system and how superior it is to other mechanics.

Well, I like them anyhow. T4 and T5 have my favorite character creation rules. I liked where T4 went with a lot of things though the half dice and dice pools are weird. T5 works pretty well if you are careful with what you put where. You can't dent battle dress with most of the guns, let alone a broad sword, assuming that when it says Pen = Strength in Gun Maker wasn't meant to mean that an average guy with a sword gets 7 dice of additional damage. Traveller 40000 or what?

I think T5 combat probably worked better in the early version where it was 2d6 difficulty for all attacks and everything else was a modifier.

I love T5's makers. No they don't give the detail of Fire Fusion & Steel but they get the job done.

It's mostly the error level and the unclear items in combat that bother me.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, I like them anyhow. T4 and T5 have my favorite character creation rules. I liked where T4 went with a lot of things though the half dice and dice pools are weird. T5 works pretty well if you are careful with what you put where. You can't dent battle dress with most of the guns, let alone a broad sword, assuming that when it says Pen = Strength in Gun Maker wasn't meant to mean that an average guy with a sword gets 7 dice of additional damage. Traveller 40000 or what?

I think T5 combat probably worked better in the early version where it was 2d6 difficulty for all attacks and everything else was a modifier.

I love T5's makers. No they don't give the detail of Fire Fusion & Steel but they get the job done.

It's mostly the error level and the unclear items in combat that bother me.

My comment was solely directed at the T4/T5 task system.

 

[David Johansen]

The problem with the task system is that you need at least three dice as an average task or there's no room to go down. The place this really shows up is in combat, where at close range you've got 1d difficulties. Yes by the time everyone's running or taking cover there's a lot of modifiers. If both sides take -6 cover you're up to -9 for all the shooting. I'm not clear in my head as to whether you can take cover and run right at the moment I'd have to look. That'd make for -11. So 1d for an average shooter with 7 Dexterity and Rifle 3 is pretty rough but for a combat oriented PC with a 12 Dexterity and Rifle 6 it's a turkey shoot.

 

[robject]

A T5 equivalent probably wouldn't be that difficult (once the errata is done). If you want it in a box (primarily for the North American market):

• For the rule book ... take the BBB, strip out the makers (leave lists of pregenerated weapons/armour/ships/whatever), prune off a few career types, limit PCs to human (no aliens, chimeras, clones, robots, etc), and probably a host of other stuff can go too. Include walk-throughs of character generation and combat. You'd have to be quite savage with the cuts, you'd be aiming at a page count of 100 to 150 at most I'd think.
• Include a starter adventure.
• Throw in some blank character sheets and a few obligatory dice.

Traveller Player's Book

This is, very roughly, Traveller5 content poured into the mold of The Traveller Book.

• Intro
• Tasks
• Character Generation
• Skills list
• Personal Combat
• Starship Design (2 pages of text, 2 pages of tables, 4 pages total)
• Starship Combat
• Starports
• Worlds
• Sectors and Subsectors
• Trade
• Technology
• Psionics
• Animal Encounters
• World Events
• Intro Adventure

Reference

• Equipment
• Bestiary
• World Charts

 

[mike wightman]

That list is more a T5 starter set than a player's book.

The basics needed by a player are:
tasks
character generation
skill list
combat
vehicle combat
ship combat
trade
equipment
psionics

referees need:
worlds
starports
technology
sectors and subsectors
starship design
vehicle design
animal encounters
world events
bestiary
world charts

So there are your two books for a T5 starter edition - player's and referee's

Add a couple of adventures and loads of handouts and summary sheets.

 

[Ulsyus]

Well, that list looks like the T5 book divided into two. Wouldn't it be better to have a Players set with the areas you listed, then a complete set for refs? Or hasn't that concept worked in the past? Or just publish the two as independent volumes, with the caveat on the second that they need the Players Manual (oops, slipped there...) to actually play the game?

 

[Ulsyus]

My unassailable logic appears to have quieted all dissemtion.

Clearly.

 

[robject]

My unassailable logic appears to have quieted all dissemtion.

Clearly.

Indeed. Although, one could say that the BBB is basically a reference book. It doesn't really tell you how to referee a Traveller game.

Regardless of that, Mike's Players Guide suggestion is valid (it's basically LBB1 with small bits of LBB2 and LBB3). I therefore present a synthesis of his list and mine:

• (p10) Intro
• (p21) Tasks
• (p35) Characters
• (p65) Skills
• (p109) Equipment (smack dab in the center of the book)
• (p132) Starports
• (p140) Personal Combat (animals and vehicles are part of this, btw)
• (p170) Ship Combat
• (p182) Trade
• (p202) Psionics
• (p212) Final Word

 

[mike wightman]

That would do nicely rob

 

[robject]

It seems to me that the Player's Guide will be a subset of the chapters from the Edit of the Big Black Book. In other words, a selection of chapters. Maybe parts of chapters, but then again, maybe not. What it almost certainly won't be is a rewrite, beyond what gets rewritten in the BBB.

I say this partly because it's the only way to get the PG out in any manner resembling timeliness.

If this fills you with dread, then either give in to depression, or else think of ways we can get what we want with minimal effort.

 

[David Johansen]

I think if we could just reformat the player's guide to be a bit less dense and repeat a few things like the skills and knowledges progression table in a few relevant places it would help a lot. Sometimes it's just finding where something is hiding that makes the book difficult.

Above all, I'd hope for full character creation and equipment in the book, tasks and combat would also be nice. I'd really want to see the stats for the classic Traveller ships, weapons, armor, and vehicles in there as it would make the game much more playable out of the gate.

 

[Ulsyus]

I think if we could just reformat the player's guide to be a bit less dense and repeat a few things like the skills and knowledges progression table in a few relevant places it would help a lot. Sometimes it's just finding where something is hiding that makes the book difficult.

So, adding an index to all the other bits would be a good idea. Its absence in the B³ has already been lamented. A detailed index can make life much easier when dealing with any game book.

 

[Blue Ghost]

If I could add something here, just briefly rereading the TL section, it seems like there's a lot of designer's notes and editorializing on why rules are added, as opposed to giving the rule and brief synopsized justification for it.

That is to say it's not just distilling the rules needed for players, but also trimming the phrasing to cut down on words and excessive expository language, so that the players can get to the nub of the rules, read them, and then generate their characters and play.

 

[MJD]

Just pulling chapters would, I think, be both a missed opportunity and a mistake.

There is an opportunity with the players book, referee's book etc to use the existing material as a source and produce a distilled (and reorganised, with additional explanation etc) and overall coherent book that fulfuls the 'here's a game you can play, all in a neat package' requirement for a core rule set.

Other segments could then be given the same treatment at a later date.

Doing something like this would not really take all that long. I've done something similar on very short time frames in the past. More importantly, it would be well worth it since it would make the T5 system vastly more accessible.