BrennanHawkwood
SOC-12
Or so they would have you think...
Scouts as spies
- Thread starter Jame
- Start date
jchurchill
SOC-12
Just jumping into this thread unless it had ground to a complete stop...
I guess it depends what you consider a spy's role and what they do. As someone esle mentioned there are a couple of approaches and they listed them as the Ian Fleming, the John Le Carre and the [holds back regurgitation] Tom Clancy.
The more realistic appraoch [Le Carre] ca also be the more grim and not so game friendly...
Intelligence officers don't actually do the "spying" per se...at least not since the 2nd World War. Case officers recruit foreign nationals as agents who do the actual spying. [e.g recruiting a Zhodani or an Aslan to reveal secrets] In the first and 2nd world wars and the perios in between you had nationals of one country posing as nationals of a foreign country but that tends to take years and is slow moving.
[The Russians were doing it into the 1950's with "sleepers" and "illegals" [officers who pose as citizens of the foreign power you wish to infiltrate.] These characters need interrogation 5,recruiting 5 and streetwise 5.
The Ian Fleming School is obviously much more fun if unrealistic....running about screwing beautiful women and shooting evil maniacs, freakish henchman and living the good life with a bottle of '82 Bollinger [3082 --a good year].
Scouts IMTU are well recognized as official spies. Sort of like military attaches. Everyone knows they are spies.
IMTU I have several competing and conflicting agencies [just like real life] that often step on each others toes. There are the military services, the scouts and I have an agency controlled by my empire's "Foreign Office"
That service [the Secret Intelligence Service] tends to pull in naval officers and army officers with the Navy holding greater influence due to wider ranging travel and control of space. [and yes, I have to admit that I have an admiral running that service.
]
I guess it depends what you consider a spy's role and what they do. As someone esle mentioned there are a couple of approaches and they listed them as the Ian Fleming, the John Le Carre and the [holds back regurgitation] Tom Clancy.
The more realistic appraoch [Le Carre] ca also be the more grim and not so game friendly...
Intelligence officers don't actually do the "spying" per se...at least not since the 2nd World War. Case officers recruit foreign nationals as agents who do the actual spying. [e.g recruiting a Zhodani or an Aslan to reveal secrets] In the first and 2nd world wars and the perios in between you had nationals of one country posing as nationals of a foreign country but that tends to take years and is slow moving.
[The Russians were doing it into the 1950's with "sleepers" and "illegals" [officers who pose as citizens of the foreign power you wish to infiltrate.] These characters need interrogation 5,recruiting 5 and streetwise 5.
The Ian Fleming School is obviously much more fun if unrealistic....running about screwing beautiful women and shooting evil maniacs, freakish henchman and living the good life with a bottle of '82 Bollinger [3082 --a good year].
Scouts IMTU are well recognized as official spies. Sort of like military attaches. Everyone knows they are spies.
IMTU I have several competing and conflicting agencies [just like real life] that often step on each others toes. There are the military services, the scouts and I have an agency controlled by my empire's "Foreign Office"
That service [the Secret Intelligence Service] tends to pull in naval officers and army officers with the Navy holding greater influence due to wider ranging travel and control of space. [and yes, I have to admit that I have an admiral running that service.
jchurchill
SOC-12
Jame,
If you need or want some organizational structure you can purloin ideas and charts form existing agencies....the pre-2nd world war structure of both the SIS [aka MI-6] and the Security Service [aka MI-5] are well known and easily adaptable. Further, a visit to the CIA website gives a rough organizational outline. Finally the Federation of American Scientists as a great websire with intelligence services of the world --where was this when I used to run dopey Top Secret games?
[I had to scrap almost all of the "canon" materials for that game and do home built as it offended my purist sensibilities [irony here]
If you need or want some organizational structure you can purloin ideas and charts form existing agencies....the pre-2nd world war structure of both the SIS [aka MI-6] and the Security Service [aka MI-5] are well known and easily adaptable. Further, a visit to the CIA website gives a rough organizational outline. Finally the Federation of American Scientists as a great websire with intelligence services of the world --where was this when I used to run dopey Top Secret games?
[I had to scrap almost all of the "canon" materials for that game and do home built as it offended my purist sensibilities [irony here]
Just one warning here, the FAS site has a dubious reputation for accuracy. For what you want it for, which is examples of how things might be, it is probably more than sufficient. But note when you see 'facts' or what appear to be so to take them with one large sized grain of salt.
And one other thing: The first Top Secret was the game that spawned the adventure my group later named 'the training mission'. It was one of the most memorable RPG experiences I recall and I also recall us consuming almost every character's full store of 'luck points' in that one scenario....
jchurchill
SOC-12
Just one warning here, the FAS site has a dubious reputation for accuracy. For what you want it for, which is examples of how things might be, it is probably more than sufficient. But note when you see 'facts' or what appear to be so to take them with one large sized grain of salt.
==================================================
Well, the FAS position on the need for "intelligence services" is pretty clear. FAS thinks they are one step above thugs. And in some cases they may be right. But I only recommend the site for basic structures and relationships...not for much more. But thanks for pointing that out K.
And one other thing: The first Top Secret was the game that spawned the adventure my group later named 'the training mission'. It was one of the most memorable RPG experiences I recall and I also recall us consuming almost every character's full store of 'luck points' in that one scenario....
=================================================
The basic game was great fun. The modules I found to be aimed at the mentality of an 11 to 12 year boy. [AD&D syndrome] The game itself when properly tweaked was excellent....
==================================================
Well, the FAS position on the need for "intelligence services" is pretty clear. FAS thinks they are one step above thugs. And in some cases they may be right. But I only recommend the site for basic structures and relationships...not for much more. But thanks for pointing that out K.
And one other thing: The first Top Secret was the game that spawned the adventure my group later named 'the training mission'. It was one of the most memorable RPG experiences I recall and I also recall us consuming almost every character's full store of 'luck points' in that one scenario....
=================================================
The basic game was great fun. The modules I found to be aimed at the mentality of an 11 to 12 year boy. [AD&D syndrome] The game itself when properly tweaked was excellent....
I can't really speak to the particulars, but I have a friend who is an interior ballistics specialist (or something like that) and he designs weapons systems for a living. When people argue from FAS data, he constantly points out flaws, misinformation, etc. So, they are a good starting point, but you should just keep in mind that they get it wrong on semi-regular occasions.
Yeah, I didn't buy many of the mission. I remember the one aboard the cruise ship wasn't too bad. But I really did enjoy the basic game and of course I recall porting just about every new firearm into the game... it was indeed quite a bit of fun.
I especially remember one time one of our characters was sprinting around a plaster wood-frame building on a concrete apron. The villain inside tracked him by the sounds of his running feet, fired a burst through the wall, and he didn't really enjoy that... but that villain was smart (unlike said self-same hero who later was trying to snuff a candle by blowing the top off of it with his pistol....).
Lots of fond memories, even if some of them were inspired by player stupidity....
jchurchill
SOC-12
But I really did enjoy the basic game and of course I recall porting just about every new firearm into the game... it was indeed quite a bit of fun.
============================================
Yes that part can get excessive as I did the same thing and still have all the results. Of course they did give you design rules so why not use them?
Lots of fond memories, even if some of them were inspired by player stupidity....
=================================================
Sometimes those are the best moments...
I was just fiddling with my generation rules and organizations for spies. As it is an interest it tends to get more attention than other things -- I have 5 Imperial services/agencies in various states of regard and competence:
Admiralty : Naval Intelligence Division
Army (War Office) MIlitary Intelligence Branch
Foreign Office: Secret Intelligence Service
Home Office: Security Service
Colonial Office: Scout Service Intelligence Branch
All report to the Committee Of Imperial Defence and then onto the Imperial Cabinent ---
The NID and SIS tend to get the most budget and respect. The Scout IB gets respect but not not as big a budget.
The Security Service has an undeserved reputation for hiring ex-colonial police officers
The Army IB has a bad reputation as gun happy unsophisticates. But tactical military intelligence is really their raison d'etre as Nathan Arizona would say.
Structure of the SIS:
Divided into Regional Controllers and REquirements Sections. The Controllers [6] correspond to the 6 major intersteller powers INTU
and there are 10 section numberd by Roman numeral that direct information sought and send it on to the appropriate bureau:
I Political
II Military [liason with War Office]
III Naval
IV Close Orbit and Airspace
V. Counterespionage {with Liason officers to the Security Service]
the other sections -- not in front of me and not as critical are
VI Industrial & Scientific
VII Finacial [Paymaster dept]
VIII Communications
IX Cyphers [Imperial Code & Cypher School]
X Media
The Security Service is broken down into Branches
A. Admin
B. Counterespionage
C. Security [Internal investigations and vetting]
D. Military [Liason with Admiralty and The Army]
E. Aliens [Those from outside the Empire living in it...resident aliens, not just ET]
F. Colonial [Defence Security Officers in areas under Imperial control]
Feel free to borrow whatever may be of use. I can provide a ferw more details of NID in the future as well as MIB. For the Scouts I just use the Organization outlined in book 6. I also have details of SIS and Security Service too
============================================
Yes that part can get excessive as I did the same thing and still have all the results. Of course they did give you design rules so why not use them?
Lots of fond memories, even if some of them were inspired by player stupidity....
=================================================
Sometimes those are the best moments...
I was just fiddling with my generation rules and organizations for spies. As it is an interest it tends to get more attention than other things -- I have 5 Imperial services/agencies in various states of regard and competence:
Admiralty : Naval Intelligence Division
Army (War Office) MIlitary Intelligence Branch
Foreign Office: Secret Intelligence Service
Home Office: Security Service
Colonial Office: Scout Service Intelligence Branch
All report to the Committee Of Imperial Defence and then onto the Imperial Cabinent ---
The NID and SIS tend to get the most budget and respect. The Scout IB gets respect but not not as big a budget.
The Security Service has an undeserved reputation for hiring ex-colonial police officers
The Army IB has a bad reputation as gun happy unsophisticates. But tactical military intelligence is really their raison d'etre as Nathan Arizona would say.
Structure of the SIS:
Divided into Regional Controllers and REquirements Sections. The Controllers [6] correspond to the 6 major intersteller powers INTU
and there are 10 section numberd by Roman numeral that direct information sought and send it on to the appropriate bureau:
I Political
II Military [liason with War Office]
III Naval
IV Close Orbit and Airspace
V. Counterespionage {with Liason officers to the Security Service]
the other sections -- not in front of me and not as critical are
VI Industrial & Scientific
VII Finacial [Paymaster dept]
VIII Communications
IX Cyphers [Imperial Code & Cypher School]
X Media
The Security Service is broken down into Branches
A. Admin
B. Counterespionage
C. Security [Internal investigations and vetting]
D. Military [Liason with Admiralty and The Army]
E. Aliens [Those from outside the Empire living in it...resident aliens, not just ET]
F. Colonial [Defence Security Officers in areas under Imperial control]
Feel free to borrow whatever may be of use. I can provide a ferw more details of NID in the future as well as MIB. For the Scouts I just use the Organization outlined in book 6. I also have details of SIS and Security Service too
Seems to me somewhere in there you should have an Intelligence Oversight Committee (at some high level, staffed by either Imperial bureaucrats or by nobles from the moot or both).
I like what you've done, but I'd also add IRIS as an intelligence service, though its function is primarily oriented around tracking 'succession related' issues.
I also assume someone has some psions tucked away to keep an eye on the Zhodani, other Imperial foes, and Imperial allies.
I like what you've done, but I'd also add IRIS as an intelligence service, though its function is primarily oriented around tracking 'succession related' issues.
I also assume someone has some psions tucked away to keep an eye on the Zhodani, other Imperial foes, and Imperial allies.
jchurchill
SOC-12
Seems to me somewhere in there you should have an Intelligence Oversight Committee (at some high level, staffed by either Imperial bureaucrats or by nobles from the moot or both).
================================================
In the the future there will be a Joint Intelligence Committee but right now the Comittee for Imperial Defence acts as a sorting house that reports to the Imperial Cabinent. The CID is ripped off...err...modelled on the real life CID formed in 1899 or 1901.
I like what you've done, but I'd also add IRIS as an intelligence service, though its function is primarily oriented around tracking 'succession related' issues.
------------------------------------------------
I don't have an IRIS in my campaign but then I don't have any material that explains what IRIS does or did.
I also assume someone has some psions tucked away to keep an eye on the Zhodani, other Imperial foes, and Imperial allies.
------------------------------------------------
In this campaign I don't have Zhodani although I borrow some elements for the newly formed Draconia empire that is becoming a rival of my main empire. The group I gamed with for years never used the Psion rules....we saved that for D &D games in way. So we rarely mixed the two except once we tried to blend the two.
A secret pionics dice role by the referee is something that I have toyed with so that PC's sometimes will get a sixth sense vague warning that something doesn't seem right or they might "have a bad feeling about this..." [the dreaded overused phrase from all Star Wars movies]
================================================
In the the future there will be a Joint Intelligence Committee but right now the Comittee for Imperial Defence acts as a sorting house that reports to the Imperial Cabinent. The CID is ripped off...err...modelled on the real life CID formed in 1899 or 1901.
I like what you've done, but I'd also add IRIS as an intelligence service, though its function is primarily oriented around tracking 'succession related' issues.
------------------------------------------------
I don't have an IRIS in my campaign but then I don't have any material that explains what IRIS does or did.
I also assume someone has some psions tucked away to keep an eye on the Zhodani, other Imperial foes, and Imperial allies.
------------------------------------------------
In this campaign I don't have Zhodani although I borrow some elements for the newly formed Draconia empire that is becoming a rival of my main empire. The group I gamed with for years never used the Psion rules....we saved that for D &D games in way. So we rarely mixed the two except once we tried to blend the two.
A secret pionics dice role by the referee is something that I have toyed with so that PC's sometimes will get a sixth sense vague warning that something doesn't seem right or they might "have a bad feeling about this..." [the dreaded overused phrase from all Star Wars movies]
jchurchill
SOC-12
One other thought while we are beating this dead equine...
I came up with a quick method for generating spies while I endlessly tinker and refine the homemade generation tables...
Rogue system can produce good to adeqate spies/intelligence officers but I have a syatem that is less than Mercenary/HighGuard but I have been testing it...
A duty table every year one one die --
1. Special or Secret Mission
2. Special or secret Mission
3. Training
4. Administrative duties
5. Diplomatic cover
6. Diplomatic cover
Special Mission -- one rolls 2 skills on any Rogue table. Survival is per Rogue
Training -- I have a table where one is cross trained with Commandoes, Intelligence School [per Merc. HG. Scouts], or one of the Scout Schools...Tech, Space/Pilot, etc...
Admin -- Role on the Bureaucrat tables and use those survival and promotion rolls...up to 2 skills per year. [I know I know...VERY imaginative]
Diplomatic Cover -- Roll on the Diplomat table for two skills. [Ditto imagination...]
The handful of characters I have generated have been fun to create and seem like they would be fun to play.
Dragon Magazine created an IBIS character years ago -- clipped the page but it has long been lost.
The creation process produced some unsatisfactory characters in my opinion and there were as I recall all these commando raids whic made not muh sense as I use military commandoes for commando work and spies for sying. Less time storming evil genius hollow volcano hideaways and more time making clandestine video/hologr. of Zhodani cypher clerks committing bizarre sex acts with Vargr and Hivers for use in future blackmail to obtain working of black globe generators..that sort of stuff.
Anyway, that's my lame attempt to create better secret agents.
I came up with a quick method for generating spies while I endlessly tinker and refine the homemade generation tables...
Rogue system can produce good to adeqate spies/intelligence officers but I have a syatem that is less than Mercenary/HighGuard but I have been testing it...
A duty table every year one one die --
1. Special or Secret Mission
2. Special or secret Mission
3. Training
4. Administrative duties
5. Diplomatic cover
6. Diplomatic cover
Special Mission -- one rolls 2 skills on any Rogue table. Survival is per Rogue
Training -- I have a table where one is cross trained with Commandoes, Intelligence School [per Merc. HG. Scouts], or one of the Scout Schools...Tech, Space/Pilot, etc...
Admin -- Role on the Bureaucrat tables and use those survival and promotion rolls...up to 2 skills per year. [I know I know...VERY imaginative]
Diplomatic Cover -- Roll on the Diplomat table for two skills. [Ditto imagination...]
The handful of characters I have generated have been fun to create and seem like they would be fun to play.
Dragon Magazine created an IBIS character years ago -- clipped the page but it has long been lost.
The creation process produced some unsatisfactory characters in my opinion and there were as I recall all these commando raids whic made not muh sense as I use military commandoes for commando work and spies for sying. Less time storming evil genius hollow volcano hideaways and more time making clandestine video/hologr. of Zhodani cypher clerks committing bizarre sex acts with Vargr and Hivers for use in future blackmail to obtain working of black globe generators..that sort of stuff.
Anyway, that's my lame attempt to create better secret agents.
secretagent wrote:
"I came up with a quick method for generating spies while I endlessly tinker and refine the homemade generation tables..." (snip of excellent stuff)
Mr. Agent,
I like this and I've stolen it. It works very well and fits Traveller neatly.
I especially like the fact that your Spy chargen uses tables that are already available in published materials. You've taken proven materials and combined them a new way to create something utterly new and extremely useful.
An article detailing your system would be a welcome addition to CotI.
Sincerely,
Larsen
"I came up with a quick method for generating spies while I endlessly tinker and refine the homemade generation tables..." (snip of excellent stuff)
Mr. Agent,
I like this and I've stolen it. It works very well and fits Traveller neatly.
I especially like the fact that your Spy chargen uses tables that are already available in published materials. You've taken proven materials and combined them a new way to create something utterly new and extremely useful.
An article detailing your system would be a welcome addition to CotI.
Sincerely,
Larsen
Secretagent,
Ditto Larsen's comments. I'm not just stealing this (whir of the hard disk) but I think this concept has excellent potential for other types of characters. Kudos, sir!
Returning to an earlier fork in this thread: let's not forget the Detached Duty Office, whose mission in part is to debrief and extract information from all those folks taking those battered old Type S's into the nooks and crannies of the universe. Book 6 implies that at least some of these people are really active agents, hidden among the mass of detachees...
John
Ditto Larsen's comments. I'm not just stealing this (whir of the hard disk) but I think this concept has excellent potential for other types of characters. Kudos, sir!
Returning to an earlier fork in this thread: let's not forget the Detached Duty Office, whose mission in part is to debrief and extract information from all those folks taking those battered old Type S's into the nooks and crannies of the universe. Book 6 implies that at least some of these people are really active agents, hidden among the mass of detachees...
John
Eventually, I decided to do more of a "Special Agent" thing, using Scouts as a base, and modifying it using "Special Ops Groups" and "Storm Commandos" from (now-dead ) WEG's "Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments from the Rim" (which is In My not-capable-of-being-Humble Opinion, or IMNCOBHO, one of their best, or at least most fun, products).
) WEG's "Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments from the Rim" (which is In My not-capable-of-being-Humble Opinion, or IMNCOBHO, one of their best, or at least most fun, products).jchurchill
SOC-12
LEW wrote:
"I especially like the fact that your Spy chargen uses tables that are already available in published materials. You've taken proven materials and combined them a new way to create something utterly new and extremely useful."
Laziness is the mother of invention. Or something like that...
"An article detailing your system would be a welcome addition to CotI."
I'll see if I can't crnak something out and submit it to the powers that be in the very near future.
"I especially like the fact that your Spy chargen uses tables that are already available in published materials. You've taken proven materials and combined them a new way to create something utterly new and extremely useful."
Laziness is the mother of invention. Or something like that...
"An article detailing your system would be a welcome addition to CotI."
I'll see if I can't crnak something out and submit it to the powers that be in the very near future.
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