Scouts as spies
- Thread starter Jame
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jchurchill
SOC-12
..IMTU, scouts are fairly common place in and around most systems.
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Unless you look at survival roll for that service and bring them into the game. IMTU, you don't see lots of scouts --certainly not scouts over age 30. An older scout signals to the playes someone who has been very smart and very lucky. You might see plenty of 20 to 22 year old scouts loitering around certain starports but then you might never see them again... "Just Poking Around" ..the official journal of retired and detached scouts is 20% articles, 30% advertisements and 50% obituries. [with a healthy percent of "no remains found" and MIA].
Retired army types are a dime a dozen and to quote a US Civil War general..."Who ever saw a dead cavalryman." [Obviously stated before Little Big Horn."
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Unless you look at survival roll for that service and bring them into the game. IMTU, you don't see lots of scouts --certainly not scouts over age 30. An older scout signals to the playes someone who has been very smart and very lucky. You might see plenty of 20 to 22 year old scouts loitering around certain starports but then you might never see them again... "Just Poking Around" ..the official journal of retired and detached scouts is 20% articles, 30% advertisements and 50% obituries. [with a healthy percent of "no remains found" and MIA].
Retired army types are a dime a dozen and to quote a US Civil War general..."Who ever saw a dead cavalryman." [Obviously stated before Little Big Horn."
One of the two reasons I don't use Scouts, my version of the IISS, as spies directly. They make some of the best spies if brought in quickly, that is, some scouts are brought into the CBI (Like FBI, but Consortium instead of Federal. I'm gonna look at the INR, see above, and maybe use it as a model...), but the IISS isn't the Intel branch.
And I don't use scout ships for it either, 'cause they're too conspicuous.
And I don't use scout ships for it either, 'cause they're too conspicuous.
You caught me out thinking faster than I type. I actually meant that Type S Scoutships are fairly common. I agree that scouts themselves are not prone to a long healthy career progression.
To quote Supplement 9 Fighting Ships (1981), pg 11
Scout/Courier........
"Comments: One of the most commonly encountered ship types in the Imperium is the S class scout/courier."
<and further on down the page>
"Estimates of the numbers of scout/couriers in service are arbitary, as they must work from the counts of those in service, and extrapolate to cover surplus, detached and foreign scout/couriers; the count ranges from 15,000 to 30,000 in the Imperium and around 1000 in the Spinward Marches."
Now there may not be a lot of ex scout characters running around with all limbs intact, but there's certainly a hell of a lot of ships and that makes them fairly inconspicuous through the old idiom "familarity<?sp> breeds contempt" IMTU.
jchurchill
SOC-12
You caught me out thinking faster than I type. I actually meant that Type S Scoutships are fairly common. I agree that scouts themselves are not prone to a long healthy career progression.
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That makes sense to me and frankly there may be people who have large scout organizations in their TU. Certainly the mortality rate among scout office/burecrats will not be as high...
Now there may not be a lot of ex scout characters running around with all limbs intact, but there's certainly a hell of a lot of ships and that makes them fairly inconspicuous through the old idiom "familarity<?sp> breeds contempt" IMTU.
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Point well taken. Welcome to the boards.
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That makes sense to me and frankly there may be people who have large scout organizations in their TU. Certainly the mortality rate among scout office/burecrats will not be as high...
Now there may not be a lot of ex scout characters running around with all limbs intact, but there's certainly a hell of a lot of ships and that makes them fairly inconspicuous through the old idiom "familarity<?sp> breeds contempt" IMTU.
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Point well taken. Welcome to the boards.
Thanks for the welcome.
A I read through the last few posts again, I little light went on.......let's have a look (Hypothetical) at why scouts have such a high mortality rate in service!
Sure, if you have 10-15,000 men and women running around the universe, operating a starship single handedly month in, month out on the fringes of civilised Imperial space, you're bound to lose 1 or 12 dozen a year.......But.....
What if the scouts are, infact, running around spying, overtly as well as covertly? Could explain why they have a mortality rate so much higher than the Armed Forces. A scout is captured and the service immediatly posts them as dead on active service somewhere far away, ship lost etc. etc. etc. The Foriegn power summarily executes them anyway and who cares? Just another scout lost.
I always believed the high survival throw was a way for Marc and the team to ensure that characters with their own transport were not easily rolled up.
But let's think of this......
A scout character fails the survival throw by 1. He/She is deemed captured by a foriegn power and charged with spying, incarcerated and released on a roll of 9 (2D6) positive DM's for streetwise and/or social standing. On a roll of 12+ they are released with an official apology sent to the Emperor from the foriegn power. They obviously can never be trusted again so their career is terminated with a automatic pension of Cr 4000 p/a whether they completed their full 5 terms or not.
Failed survival by 2, their int is 9+ and edu is 8+ then the character is earmarked for deep cover. The are posted as Dead on Active Duty then they undergo 2 years of intensive training, they spend 1 yr at Naval Intelligence School (roll on the High Guard Intelligence School skill list) and 1 yr at Commando School (roll on the Mercenary Commando School skill list) If a 6 is rolled on any skill during training, a second roll is required. If the roll is another 6 they recieve a second level in that skill as an exceptional student.
The character then finishes the last 2 years in any service other than scouts and rolls for 2 aquired skills before "mandatory" retirement with a new identity. Roleplay the spy.
The other players need not know this (as per Solomani char gen for Solsec/Party members)Genuine survival roll is actually 5.
Now I made this up as I was typing, so comments and critiques welcome. Just don't try to tear me a new one becuase it doesn't gel with YTU. It's here simply as an excerise in explaining a part of the Traveller system (CT that is). within the spirit of the thread.
After reading through my small and totally inadequate pile of Traveller publications, I found something pertinent to this question in the Journal of TAS #23.
pg 12 is the start of an Amber Zone adventure entitled "The Birthday Plot" and the credit was given to Mr. Keith Douglas, who also gave us the 'CharGen' for "The Irklan" ( a human religous sect from Menorb)...same publication, start pg 15.
I shall quote from the "Referee's Information" on pg 13 of the adventure.
" The dead man in the alley is Calmar Singh, an operative with the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service. Posing as a merchant, Singh had looking into Ine Givar activities on Efate........"
Now it can be argued either way about this being canon, but as it was published in JTAS # 23 a referee could quite esily make the leap to the idea that the IISS are a bunch of "sneaky peeky" types. There is other evidence I've not bothered to quote such as the false ID this Singh individual was carrying etc. (I'd hate to step over the copyright boundries here)
Of course, YMMV
Hope all my ramblings help in some small way Jame.
Despite all that has been said about the universe "all being explored" the fact is that the Imperium knows far less of what it would like to know, then a 20th century state of comparative influence. Besides the fact that there are thousands of systems with worlds the size of Earth there is the communications lag. Not to mention that not everything has in fact been explored. And though physical geography seldom changes, political geography changes quite frequently. A lot of areas have to be explored and re-explored continually.
Thus while the Imperium naturally wants to know lots of stuff it isn't suppossed to know("if you get caught we never heard of you"), it has a great and perhaps underestimated interest in knowing ordinary things. Things like how does an ambassodor address the Lord of Star System Googah without offending him? Which small planets would be willing to give shelter(it would be a great advantage if the Imperium had a line of small independant states that are willing to fuel a fleet and the Zhodani don't know about it)? Geographical intell would be very important in the Traveller universe and empires would compete for it.
Also the IISS would be always watching the starlanes to see what ships go where. Naturally they would have an observer in every important port they can get to see who docks there.
If nothing else the Imperium has to communicate with it's spies some how. Arranging this would be at least partly the IISS' job.
Thus while the Imperium naturally wants to know lots of stuff it isn't suppossed to know("if you get caught we never heard of you"), it has a great and perhaps underestimated interest in knowing ordinary things. Things like how does an ambassodor address the Lord of Star System Googah without offending him? Which small planets would be willing to give shelter(it would be a great advantage if the Imperium had a line of small independant states that are willing to fuel a fleet and the Zhodani don't know about it)? Geographical intell would be very important in the Traveller universe and empires would compete for it.
Also the IISS would be always watching the starlanes to see what ships go where. Naturally they would have an observer in every important port they can get to see who docks there.
If nothing else the Imperium has to communicate with it's spies some how. Arranging this would be at least partly the IISS' job.
Oh and why can't scouts take part in such things as recruiting local not-very-nice-people to give information? They are certainly used to dealing with foreign cultures. And though they may not disguise while as a native, they could just claim to be travellers, thus explaining their funny ways quite plausibly.
FYI - The US intelligence community not only includes the likes of the CIA, DIA and NSA but also FBI and the Departments of State, Treasury, Energy and Justice (I believe there's something like a dozen organizations in the 'IC').
A pen name of one of the Keith brothers.
The IISS is an Imperium wide organization with law enforcement powers, that much is established in canon. The nature of the OTU is such that Scouts will find themselves the only Imperial authority on the scene and/or aware of a threat to the Imperium. To me this means that the IISS will have intelligence gathering and special operations capabilities because there are times when you can't wait for the right people to arrive to take charge. Please note that this makes the IISS neither a 'spy' agency nor a military service even though it has the capabilities mentioned above. The Special Security Section (S3) of the Security Branch, for example, is intended to be the IISS' 'SWAT' team, paramilitary recon arm and special ops force but is not part of the formal Imperial military structure any more than the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team is meant to be a part of the US Dept. of Defense.
Just a few thoughts. . .
Maybe I missed something WAY back there at the beginnign, but there's little doubt that the IISS has a branch utilizing spies.
In Book 6 (CT) page 5 under OFFICES AND BRANCHES there are listed seven offices of the IISS one of which is the Detached Duty Office whose function is :
" The Dteached Duty Office was created to keep track of all retired and deteached Scout personnel in order to be able to swifftly recontact them and return them to active service in an emergency...."
and as part of this office is the Intelligence
Branch which is :
" The Intelligence Branch is an information gathering agency for the Scouts. Its primary function is to debreif detached Scouts when they visit scout bases for refueling or maintenance on their vessels. The Intelligence Branc also maintains active agents (spies) in areas where information is vitally needed."
Sounds like spies to me.
Do it to it, scouts are spies, right.
Pappy
In Book 6 (CT) page 5 under OFFICES AND BRANCHES there are listed seven offices of the IISS one of which is the Detached Duty Office whose function is :
" The Dteached Duty Office was created to keep track of all retired and deteached Scout personnel in order to be able to swifftly recontact them and return them to active service in an emergency...."
and as part of this office is the Intelligence
Branch which is :
" The Intelligence Branch is an information gathering agency for the Scouts. Its primary function is to debreif detached Scouts when they visit scout bases for refueling or maintenance on their vessels. The Intelligence Branc also maintains active agents (spies) in areas where information is vitally needed."
Sounds like spies to me.
Do it to it, scouts are spies, right.
Pappy
jchurchill
SOC-12
Maybe I missed something WAY back there at the beginnign, but there's little doubt that the IISS has a branch utilizing spies.
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We did this one WAY back at the beginning...but yes Book 6 does mention the Intelligence Branch of Detached Scout Branch.
" The Dteached Duty Office was created to keep track of all retired and deteached Scout personnel in order to be able to swifftly recontact them and return them to active service in an emergency...."
and as part of this office is the Intelligence
Branch which is :
" The Intelligence Branch is an information gathering agency for the Scouts. Its primary function is to debreif detached Scouts when they visit scout bases for refueling or maintenance on their vessels. The Intelligence Branc also maintains active agents (spies) in areas where information is vitally needed."
Sounds like spies to me.
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Certainly, no doubt about the Intelligence Branch using spies. But of course that does not make the whole Scout Service a spy agency [or "intelligence service" for you purists out there.] The same is true regarding any paramilitary or commando force that the Scouts might have...One commando force of 100 or 200 or even 1000 scouts doesn't make the Scouts a commando organization.
Some scouts will be working in the Intelligence Branch. But many more will be working exploration, courier, or surveying duties. Look at the assignment tables and you will see the chances of scout winding up in intelligence are much more slim than working as an adminitrator or being in the field doing survey, exploration, or courier work.
So: Not all Scouts are spies and not all spies are Scouts.
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We did this one WAY back at the beginning...but yes Book 6 does mention the Intelligence Branch of Detached Scout Branch.
" The Dteached Duty Office was created to keep track of all retired and deteached Scout personnel in order to be able to swifftly recontact them and return them to active service in an emergency...."
and as part of this office is the Intelligence
Branch which is :
" The Intelligence Branch is an information gathering agency for the Scouts. Its primary function is to debreif detached Scouts when they visit scout bases for refueling or maintenance on their vessels. The Intelligence Branc also maintains active agents (spies) in areas where information is vitally needed."
Sounds like spies to me.
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Certainly, no doubt about the Intelligence Branch using spies. But of course that does not make the whole Scout Service a spy agency [or "intelligence service" for you purists out there.] The same is true regarding any paramilitary or commando force that the Scouts might have...One commando force of 100 or 200 or even 1000 scouts doesn't make the Scouts a commando organization.
Some scouts will be working in the Intelligence Branch. But many more will be working exploration, courier, or surveying duties. Look at the assignment tables and you will see the chances of scout winding up in intelligence are much more slim than working as an adminitrator or being in the field doing survey, exploration, or courier work.
So: Not all Scouts are spies and not all spies are Scouts.
Sorry, I never meant to imply that ALL Scouts were spies. I intended, in my clumsy way , to point out that Book 6 DID say that the Detached Duty Office employed some active agents as spies when needed (doesn't say if those agents are full-time spies or just detached or active Scouts pressed into service for the duration of a single mission,[although I really doubt that the IISS would risk using just ANY detached scout as a spy]).
Nor did I mean to imply that ONLY the IISS employed spies. Only that the IISS DID indeed use clandestine agents to gather information (again, I assume such agents might be employed within the borders of the Empire OR outside the confines of the Empire).
So sorry if I muddied the waters.
So far as a paramilitary unit the same source does mention that the Security Branch of the IISS Operations Office is "charged with providing security and law enforcement for the Scout Service. Security Branch Scouts serve as police enforcers on Scout property, as commandos or shipboard light troops, for special Scout activities, and as clandestine agents for Intelligence Branch."
Pappy
, to point out that Book 6 DID say that the Detached Duty Office employed some active agents as spies when needed (doesn't say if those agents are full-time spies or just detached or active Scouts pressed into service for the duration of a single mission,[although I really doubt that the IISS would risk using just ANY detached scout as a spy]).Nor did I mean to imply that ONLY the IISS employed spies. Only that the IISS DID indeed use clandestine agents to gather information (again, I assume such agents might be employed within the borders of the Empire OR outside the confines of the Empire).
So sorry if I muddied the waters.
So far as a paramilitary unit the same source does mention that the Security Branch of the IISS Operations Office is "charged with providing security and law enforcement for the Scout Service. Security Branch Scouts serve as police enforcers on Scout property, as commandos or shipboard light troops, for special Scout activities, and as clandestine agents for Intelligence Branch."
Pappy
jchurchill
SOC-12
Sorry, I never meant to imply that ALL Scouts were spies.
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That was my own afterthought really...I don't think you muddied the waters and I wasn't trying to criticize you -- MY apologies if it came off that way..
I have a minor personal gripe about pressing Scouts generally into roles that I personally don't see them being trained to do... Scouts are versatile and capable characters but they aren't usually meant to be commandoes and often don't have the skills for it..
I have a slightly larger gripe about spy chargen that produces commandoes rather than spies. There are only so many James Bonds running around.
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That was my own afterthought really...I don't think you muddied the waters and I wasn't trying to criticize you -- MY apologies if it came off that way..
I have a minor personal gripe about pressing Scouts generally into roles that I personally don't see them being trained to do... Scouts are versatile and capable characters but they aren't usually meant to be commandoes and often don't have the skills for it..
I have a slightly larger gripe about spy chargen that produces commandoes rather than spies. There are only so many James Bonds running around.
I have a slightly larger gripe about spy chargen that produces commandoes rather than spies. There are only so many James Bonds running around. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Right, so far as I can see there were only a few intelligence organizations mentioned in CT (Scouts, Naval Intelligence and an obscure mention of some unit attached to the Army). Of those, I think my choice would be the Scouts so far as a gaming campaign. It would be less constricting for the players and the GM if the characters only had to report in like a detached scout would.
Pappy
Right, so far as I can see there were only a few intelligence organizations mentioned in CT (Scouts, Naval Intelligence and an obscure mention of some unit attached to the Army). Of those, I think my choice would be the Scouts so far as a gaming campaign. It would be less constricting for the players and the GM if the characters only had to report in like a detached scout would.
Pappy
jchurchill
SOC-12
Right, so far as I can see there were only a few intelligence organizations mentioned in CT (Scouts, Naval Intelligence and an obscure mention of some unit attached to the Army). Of those, I think my choice would be the Scouts so far as a gaming campaign. It would be less constricting for the players and the GM if the characters only had to report in like a detached scout would.
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Pretty much true. MT's Rebellion Sourcebook has about 2 pages devoted to the intelligence services of the various factions. Nothing in the way of solid details but rattles off a list of names.
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Pretty much true. MT's Rebellion Sourcebook has about 2 pages devoted to the intelligence services of the various factions. Nothing in the way of solid details but rattles off a list of names.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
If we told you, we'd have to kill you.
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