It's odd, but I really can't remember how that happened. It's completely erased from my memory. The earliest I recall from that campaign is having this legally questionable Leviathan on our hands and discussing fuel costs.
Hans
Sector Duke Warship
- Thread starter Travellerspud
- Start date
Hans
salochin999
SOC-13
(Bit long but it helps me get MTU clear in my mind)
I guess the answer to the question depends how you set the power structure up.
There are "colonial" fleets in the OTU which I assume are the feudal-like fleets each cluster/sub-sector creates.
So IMTU the Dukes control those colonial/cluster fleets - they might be run day to day by the Admirals (colonial not Imperial) but the Duke is the CinC. The IN fleets are separate.
This would be similar to the Ottoman empire where the Sultan created a professional force called Janissaries to counter the constant rebellions from the nobles. If you just have the equivalent of the IN then the Admirals in remote regions will rebel (like Roman generals did) and if you just have feudal nobles then the Dukes in remote regions will rebel - but if you have two separate power structures then the Sultan/Emperor can use them to cancel each other out.
#
So if you accept that idea of a dual structure with the feudal fleets as one pillar then the type of ships the Duke would have under command would depend on the planets in the sub-sector.
The main systems in a cluster would raise taxes and some of it would go to the center to fund the IN and some would be used to raise the Ducal forces.
It could be all sent to the Ducal capital and all the ships built there or the higher tech systems could build a squadron or two each depending on size and tech or if none of the systems were high tech enough the money could be spent ordering ships from a higher tech system to be delivered or a mixture of all three.
For example
Glisten
http://travellermap.com/?scale=90.5078125&x=-94.775&y=43.597
Glisten is TL15 so could build up to IN quality ships for the colonial fleet with Ffudn and Bendor maybe building TL12 squadrons for some reason - for example can a TL10 system crew a TL15 ship from its own population easily or would they mostly have to rely on outside contractors (which is how its done in a lot of places around the world now)? Maybe TL12 ships are a better compromise for lower tech systems.
Mora
http://travellermap.com/?scale=90.5078125&x=-86.488&y=53.132
Mora on the other hand has three alpha planets: Mora itself, Palique and Fornice and I think in a situation like that Palique and Fornice would insist on producing some of the cluster fleet themselves both to subsidize their ship yards and to keep up with technology.
(To my mind the power situation in Mora lends itself to Palique and Fornice having Counts and a lot of rivalry between them and the Duke.)
So IMTU the Counts of Palique and Fornice would buy in at least one squadron of TL15 ships as the core of their fleet - in the same way countries on earth buy a few squadrons of aircraft they can't maintain themselves - but also build other squadrons themselves in their own yards with those Count's fleets nominally (and usually) under the control of the Duke.
Aramis
http://travellermap.com/?scale=90.5078125&x=-85.837&y=71.108
Aramis doesn't look like it has the ability to build much so would buy in most of what it needed.
#
So after all that if you accept the premises I'd say unless the sub-sector is very backward that most sub-sector Dukes are likely to have at least a squadron of TL15 or TL12 battleships - bought in if necessary - and a feudal levy of anything from TL9 to TL15 ships from the various A star port systems in their cluster with high enough population and TL.
However that's war-fighting ships.
I can also imagine a Duke having a custom made flagship type ship like a mega-yacht: J6, M6, lots or armor and all the best defensive systems, the best comms and sensors and at least a company of marines with whatever weapons will fit after all that.
Thirdly and in this context I think there's the possibility of a riot squad category - ships for dealing with situations below war fighting - a bit like the Ducal equivalent of a Broadsword.
#
So in terms of those three categories: 1) warship, 2)Ducal flagship, and 3) riot squad I'd say the OP design is a cross between the idea of a custom built Ducal military flagship / mega-yacht and a riot squad ship.
Personally I think I'd split it into two and on the one hand have a kind of top of the range Ducal military yacht which carries troops but mostly for close protection and on the other hand riot squad ships which are like bigger, meaner Broadswords with a higher troop to heavy weapons ratio than regular military units to match their paramilitary role.
IMTU the Ducal flagship would be hanging back in orbit with the Duke sipping wine and watching through the viewport as the Uber Broadswords pound the planet and send dropships to the surface.
Although actually it could vary with the Duke's personality - some of them might like to lead from the front in which case the OP design might suit well.
Travellerspud
SOC-12
that was exactly my thinking, however the group convinced me that a smart Duke has an impressive yacht, but uses his Imperial connections to whip up any real muscle he might need. A Duke can easily give orders for "training maneuvers" for a BatRon in any upstart Noble's system, and avoid the expense of maintaining a real warship. Any situations that a Duke would not want to use Imperial assets are probably best handled discretely anyways...
IMTU Colonial Fleets are almost entirely SDB's and other boats (some asteroids almost battleship in size), and the rest being mostly jump-capable auxillaries with a few merchant escorts. It is a rich world that maintains a jump-capable battle fleet. Things like that start trade wars, eventually, so the local Dukes keep a close check on such things politically. Worlds with high-tech class-A starports get Imperial Fleet contracts (as long as they cooperate).
Of course, outside the Imperium things are different....which is where I like to send my poor PC's...
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Which doesn't happen in the OTU.
You can tell us about your own TU, in which case no one can gainsay you. Or you can talk about the OTU, in which case you should be prepared to be challenged. Once you use the acronym 'OTU', being in the IMTU forum is no longer enough to cover differences between YTU and the OTU.
I'm more inclined to think that Bendor would be building transports and other auxiliaries for the IN.
What little the tax base allows it to buy.
Hans
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Hans, have you ever read the Schlock Mercenary web comic?
Very definitely a group of PCs. Very definitely on a larger than trade sized vessel.
Truth be told, most campaigns that revolve around merc groups often need ships larger than the 800 ton bowling ball to haul all of their equipment and supplies.
Plus, when you add in the automations discussed in other threads it is not that far fetched to see PCs control larger vessels.
However, I am pretty sure the truth is related to the natural break points like 5000 dtons in Classic and 2000 dtons in MT more than to anything else.
Very definitely a group of PCs. Very definitely on a larger than trade sized vessel.
Truth be told, most campaigns that revolve around merc groups often need ships larger than the 800 ton bowling ball to haul all of their equipment and supplies.
Plus, when you add in the automations discussed in other threads it is not that far fetched to see PCs control larger vessels.
However, I am pretty sure the truth is related to the natural break points like 5000 dtons in Classic and 2000 dtons in MT more than to anything else.
Every day.
Very definitely a military ship. Very definitely larger than 2400T. And very definitely not your average bunch of adventurers.
Very true. But then, I don't consider active mercenary companies to be adventuring bands.
Right you are. Marc Miller may be planning to retcon that into the Third Imperium setting.
Hans
Actually, I think the Mongoose Deneb book lays out significant colonial navies controlled by the rival subsector dukes. These navies are generally capped at the cruiser level.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Only if you buy into Ken Burnside's definition of "capital hull".
I haven't read that book, but from what I gather it contradicts previously published information on this subject. My guess is that Robert wrote it up that way precisely because the Imperium generally don't have room for private interstellar wars.
Be that as it may, even taking what you say as gospel, there are major differences with the original scenario.
1) In Deneb the dukes appear to be the problem; if a member world (controlled by a count) made trouble, the subsector duke would be part of the solution.
2) Navies capped at the cruiser level make no sense for nobles who control an entire subsector (or a single high-tech, high-population world either), since they would have the tax base to build (or buy) multiple battleships.
3) And if they were capped at the cruiser level, these dukes wouldn't be in a position to go against bedrock Imperial policy, since the Imperial Navy would be able to muster the strength to curb their excesses.
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
It arose from the earlier period, when the Dukes were the leaders in expelling the Vargr from the sector at the heads of local and personal fleets. The armed camp conditions persisted after that period wore down. The worst excesses occurred during the Civil War, when any centralized Navy fleets were either off following a wannabee Emperor to Capital or were desperately holding back the Vargr or Zhodani, and the Dukes decided to determine who was Top Dog while adult supervision was absent. Regent Arbellatra nationalized all capital hulls in the Deneb Ducal fleets (under threat of outlawry) to end the period, but the Dukes kept up their sniping in smaller hulls, and still do.
In other sectors, the subsector Dukes generally have a close relationship with the local apparatus of the Imperial Navy. In Deneb, it rarely gets above a "working" relationship. The Colonial Naval Fleets of Deneb have a rigorously defined place and purpose, and the Colonial Captain who engages in partisan politics while at the helm will not be Captain for long.
I take it this is qouted from the book?
Hans
That's the first point where the story breaks. The emperors of those days had a couple of centuries after the Vargr campaigns and prior to the Civil War to get the dukes under control, and from the history of the dukes of Vincennes they had little trouble replacing unsatisfactory dukes.
That part is perfectly plausible.
Also, she switched every duke in the sector with dukes from other parts of the Imperium, as she is canonically known to have done all over the Imperium. No? Why not? Seems an excellent way to handle it. If she could force a duke to give up his battleships, she could certainly force him to move. And it would be a perfect opportunity to make sure the dukes in the sector didn't have any private source of support but had to rely on the Imperial Navy.
And they've been doing it for 500 years, being replaced with other dukes a couple of times per century or more, every time the emperors lost their patience with one?
That doesn't make sense. A high duke is the Emperor's personal representative. If he can't act according to the Emperor's wishes, he's not doing his job properly, which is grounds for dismissal.
In what senes is the term 'colonial' used here? What is a Colonial Naval Fleet?
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
paraphrased.
Maybe they didn't need replacing. Young families rising high on the tide of full Imperial membership, optimism, and privilege. Get two bad apples at the same time, though...
The worst offender of the Civil War Dukes of Deneb was outlawed and fled to Vargr space. One of the others, and one of the few worth a darn, was (and his house remains) busy keeping a cluster of Imperialized Vargr worlds in line; replacing him in 630 would have been a bad idea.
The post War shenanigans are much lower key, and getting a privateer's monkey business to stick to the monkey in charge is not always easy. There have been replacements, though.
The Dukes are there to carry out a subset of the Emperor's wishes, while the Navy is there to carry out another subset. Elsewhere, a word to the local Admiral is enough to get them working on the same task. In Deneb, INI keeps busy making sure that Ducal requests are on the up and up.
The Reserves, that group of secondary fleets that keep mutating every time someone writes about Imperial Fleets.
OK, I don't wabnt to turn this into a discussion of the faithfulness to previously published information nor the self-consistency of MGT: Deneb. In the connection with this thread I will just say that even if it all made perfect sense, it would still a) be an aberration and b) not allow individual worlds and Imperial nobles of less that ducal rank to fight private wars.
Hans
Hans
That could work in reverse. Fleet elements on training exercises means fleet personnel with spare cash to spend on shore duty, Fleet logistics officers ordering food and other supplies from local merchants, Fleet ships buying fuel and getting minor repairs at the local starport. I don't know that a Duke can "give orders" unless he's actually a member of the Admiralty, but he can certainly suggest that training exercises be held here instead of there, and a fleet admiral with an interest in his own social promotion might find value in accepting the suggestions of a highly placed and influential noble. Such influence in turn translates to lower-echelon nobles eager to curry favor with the Duke in order to attract the Fleet operations that might bring a temporary boost to the local economy and a decided boost to the lower-echelon noble's reputation among the locals (and dismay to his local critics). A couple of squadrons of destroyers running escort and reconnaissance simulations can bring a decent chunk of change to a lower pop world.
In that respect, sending a batron for training maneuvers in the system of some upstart is a complex political maneuver. It is a peace overture, bringing good things to the local noble. It quietly reminds the upstart of the power of the Navy and the risks involved in opposing them - and gives cover for a lot of Navy intelligence assets who can potentially make trouble. It makes the upstart more popular with his own people - with respect to his relationship with the Duke; it is more difficult for him to maneuver against the Duke while his own people are happy with the Duke and looking forward to future positive benefits from that relationship. And it makes the Duke more popular locally.
Ah, logistics.
Awfully hard to get stupid when the Navy grabs up your logistical support.
Another fun part about running "training exercises" in Lord Uppity's system is that the IN can commandeer lots war materials that Lord Uppity with great forethought and loyalty stocked for such an occasion. :devil:
Awfully hard to get stupid when the Navy grabs up your logistical support.
"As a high duke, Norris ranks ex officio as a Fleet Admiral. Strangely, or perhaps not so strangely, career admirals who accept the authority of dukes who have had no formal navy experience whatsoever without a murmur resent taking orders from "a jumped-up commander"."
--- A Festive Occasion, Appendix 2
(Note: 'One-star' and 'two-star' refer to the markings on the counters; I do not mean to imply that they are rear and vice admirals).
A logical extension would give sector dukes the authority to order sector dukes around even outside their own sectors.
Hans
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What is A Festive Occasion?
An adventure I wrote for Mongoose's Living Traveller campaign. I've been told it was printed in one of their compendiums, so it should be canonical.
Hans
Okay, so clarify for me:
Mongoose is slightly different, but there seems to be some intention that canon crosses over. CT Spinward Marches Campaign page 11, "Duke Norris Aella Aledon of Regina stood at the head of the civil bureaucracy in the war zone. Before the war, he had no influence in the military preparations. Because of his connections with Naval Intelligence (he was an NI officer in his youth), he was aware of the mismanagement on the Imperial side, and of the continued preparations on the Zhodani side.
"Norris appealed directly to the Emperor for command of the lmperial forces in the Marches, believing that he, the Duke, could best command the response to a Zhodani attack."
His Excellency serves as a 1 star admiral in the FFW boardgame, with seniority above Romao, Stvi, and Gascogne but below the other 1-stars, and positioned to control what SMC would call the 1st Fleet out of Regina. He's actually rather low in precedence - 11th of 14 - and there are several 1-stars above him, and of course the two-stars. His rank to me implied a war-time reactivation of a reserve status rank, but you're suggesting his title as Duke of Regina gives him operational control over Imperial forces within his duchy (though apparently not over planning and preparation).
Duchy equals Duchy of Regina? That's Regina, Jewell, and parts of Lanth and Aramis? His Excellency has operational control of the 193rd at Efate and the 125th at Jewell? But the board game rules imply whatever admirals are associated with the 193rd and 125th would have operational control of those fleets. Does this also imply that the counter mix should include a Duke of Rhylanor who has operational control over the 212th?
It seems that Mongoose is granting more authority than His Excellency has in CT, or rather than he had as of 1107. Are they implying a postwar reorganization of command?
Huh?
Mongoose is slightly different, but there seems to be some intention that canon crosses over. CT Spinward Marches Campaign page 11, "Duke Norris Aella Aledon of Regina stood at the head of the civil bureaucracy in the war zone. Before the war, he had no influence in the military preparations. Because of his connections with Naval Intelligence (he was an NI officer in his youth), he was aware of the mismanagement on the Imperial side, and of the continued preparations on the Zhodani side.
"Norris appealed directly to the Emperor for command of the lmperial forces in the Marches, believing that he, the Duke, could best command the response to a Zhodani attack."
His Excellency serves as a 1 star admiral in the FFW boardgame, with seniority above Romao, Stvi, and Gascogne but below the other 1-stars, and positioned to control what SMC would call the 1st Fleet out of Regina. He's actually rather low in precedence - 11th of 14 - and there are several 1-stars above him, and of course the two-stars. His rank to me implied a war-time reactivation of a reserve status rank, but you're suggesting his title as Duke of Regina gives him operational control over Imperial forces within his duchy (though apparently not over planning and preparation).
Duchy equals Duchy of Regina? That's Regina, Jewell, and parts of Lanth and Aramis? His Excellency has operational control of the 193rd at Efate and the 125th at Jewell? But the board game rules imply whatever admirals are associated with the 193rd and 125th would have operational control of those fleets. Does this also imply that the counter mix should include a Duke of Rhylanor who has operational control over the 212th?
It seems that Mongoose is granting more authority than His Excellency has in CT, or rather than he had as of 1107. Are they implying a postwar reorganization of command?
Huh?
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
A) Pretty much. The rest of the Imperium had different situations and influences in the formative years.
B) What the Emperor doesn't know won't hurt you.
