Sector Duke Warship

[rancke]

Because the duchy should be the fief, not the administrative region. And they aren't the same.

The administrative region is not the territory ruled by the duke?

Further, Marc has not adopted your nomenclature, so it's non-canonical.

So? CotI is not an official Traveller publication.

Also, there are canonical uses of the term in GT: Nobles and A Festive Occasion, so he has approved the term per proxy, making it canonical until and unless he expressly says otherwise.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Historically, no. The Duchy was only his own county...

Uh, what???

Because the duchy should be the fief, not the administrative region. ...

Ah. The estate then. Like, the Duchy of Burgundy.

...And they aren't the same. Further, Marc has not adopted your nomenclature, so it's non-canonical.

For CT/MT/T5 and presumably TNE.

Apparently it is for GURPS. And, apparently Mongoose seems willing to accept his use of it. And, I'm sure potatoes taste just as good whether you call them chips or french fries. So, about this business of ducal prerogative ...

 

[Carlobrand]

This is interesting:

One of the things I mentioned was the difference between CT and its subsector dukes and fleets, and MT and its reorganization that apparently gave less military authority to the nobles. Over in GURPS-ville, I see hints of something similar: there was some sort of reform in 1116. Any info on what changes occurred?

 

[rancke]

One of the things I mentioned was the difference between CT and its subsector dukes and fleets, and MT and its reorganization that apparently gave less military authority to the nobles.

You're mixing up civil authority and military authority. Historically, governors were the highest civil authority in their provinces, which allowed them to issue orders to military forces stationed in said provinces. The common notion that civilians can't give orders to the military is fallacious. Some civilians most certainly can, and provincial governors were among them.

I suggest that dukes have analogous civil powers in their territories.

(Then there are the situations when an officer has been given the order "Do what <civilian> tells you to" by a military superior. )

The whole mess involving Norris gadding about as a bona fide admiral in FFW and my own elaboration on that in AFO is an entirely separate sort of authority.

Over in GURPS-ville, I see hints of something similar: there was some sort of reform in 1116. Any info on what changes occurred?

Could you provide a reference?


Hans

 

[Aramais]

It's also a question of semantics, not substance. The Duke of Regina is the Duke of Regina: he is given hereditary (subject to approval of the Emperor and Moot on inheritance, if I recall) authority by the Emperor to manage the Regina subsector, and the person so assigned is granted the title of Duke (and a nice fief on Regina, if I recall). Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but an administrative region of an empire run on behalf of an emperor by a duke elevated by that emperor, assigned to that region by that emperor and serving in fealty to that emperor could be called a duchy, no?

Certainly the Wiki seems content to use that language, though again I'm not sure what specifically it sources to. I see, as you point out, that GURPS makes use of the term, "Duchy of Regina". Perhaps Mongoose does to, I don't know. I do know that there's some preference that milieu canon should cross rule sets where possible - least ways, whenever I try to say "that's GURPS" or "that's Mongoose", I seem to attract a very vigorously negative reaction. That being the case, if Hans prefers to use that language and GURPS is already using that language then I don't see that it's creating any problems.

Terminology aside, a Duke or Duchess tends to administrate an area the rough size of a subsector. Call it what you will. The game models the concepts of both mandated lines of authority and evolution of authority.

The nature of the Wiki is not such that every last word is Canon. The fact is, anyone can post, and then the administrators have to look at things. That doesn't guarantee that the comments are (or are NOT) Canon.

The same is true of versions. Most "historical" Mongoose material can be assumed to be Canon in the absence of a contrary statement, as can most GURPS -- but that doesn't leave every word of anything Canonical, even with a license. I even flip-flop on Cirque, teasing myself mainly...it's Canon so far as T5 goes, I guess.

The REAL issue is not what it's called, exactly -- but what authority it brings.

Of substance, whether you call it a subsector or a duchy (in the case of those subsectors governed by a duke rather than by the Navy or some other arrangement), Supplement 8 seems to make pretty clear that an administrative region run by a duke on the Emperor's behalf is a "foundational" entity, that the subsector dukes enjoy broad authority and, unless there's some CT canon element that specifically states there are not subsector navies, I'd have to say the reference to a subsector navy in HG II - which occurs not just with respect to careers but with respect to who can procure ships where in ship construction - tends to imply the existence of subsector navy. It is logical to assume a duke with broad authority over the subsector also holds authority over that subsector navy, and I don't see evidence suggesting an alternative hypothesis.

There is Canon material and HISTORY to make clear that IN and IISS have separate and independent authority from the subsector and even sector nobility. This is actually well described in the Mongoose book on Fleets which I skimmed in a bookstore just the other day.

The history, though, is implicit in the history of the Fifth Frontier War -- Santanocheev was in command until he received a command from the Emperor -- yes, you read that right, and I meant it. Neither Norris nor the Duchess of Mora (previously considered the Sector Duchess in all but title) could fire Santanocheev or take control of the IN. The IN was loyal to the Emperor, and Santanocheev's position was derived from the Emperor.

Once Norris had the Warrant in his hands, though, he WAS the Emperor for purposes of prosecuting the war. With that authority, he could (and did) effectively fire Santanocheev and take direct command.

As to that duke's powers with respect to the Imperial Navy, that's a puzzler. I'd long considered that the IN was independent of the nobility other than such influence that results from people wishing to curry favor or avoid making powerful enemies. However, MT clearly gives the sector duke a role in the IN hierarchy,and Hans correctly points out a quote in MT RS that speaks of admirals "answer(ing) to" a subsector duke, which language is quite a bit stronger than one would expect if it was only a question of currying favor or avoiding enmities. That's not the same as the subsector dukes ordering them about, but it does imply they have some role in the sector duke's supervision of the IN - as would make sense, since the sector duke can't be everywhere and the subsector dukes already have an administrative structure in place for supervising their subsectors and reporting to the sector duke.

"Answering to" is a political statement. The "answer" could be a phrase ending with "and the horse you rode in on." The same is true of the Sector Duke.

At the same time, no admiral in his/her right mind absolutely ignores the civilian authority's concerns. The two separate hierarchies work in parallel, sometimes cooperating, sometimes at odds. A subsector Duke isn't going to be completely ignored when his or her Huscarls and squadrons are "called up," but that doesn't put him or her in charge.

It's easy to say that simple rules can be written for a complex political system that can't turn around an Imperial Edict in under a year. Saying it doesn't make it true.

Only question then is that bit about one taking command of a fleet. That one is undeniably a stretch, but it does have a certain logic to it if we assume that the subsector duke is most familiar with his subsector and that some problems might not wait for a report to get up to admiralty and for orders to work their way downward - especially if we're also saying that the new naval structure portrayed in MT took the once-subsector fleets out of the hands of the various dukes. An "exigent circumstances" clause would be one way of ensuring that, after implementing such a change, the various dukes would still have combat forces available to them if some urgent need arose within their subsectors. It would go far to mollifying dukes which once counted subsector navies among their resources.

If the subsector duke wants something done he/she either uses personal forces or ASKS the IN...and hopes the IN agrees with his/her proposed action. It's a little like calling in Federal assistance in a disaster area -- you'll get cooperation, not obedience.

 

[Hyphen]

"Nice"? That really depends on the reactions of the first annual maintenance crew or even just Traffic Control to ping your shiny new ship's transponder. Worse than flying a recovered pirate hull, you're flying a *ghost*.

Agreed. It sounds like something The Computer from Paranoia would give someone. The poor saps are SO pleased - at first...

 

[Hyphen]

It's odd, but I really can't remember how that happened. It's completely erased from my memory. The earliest I recall from that campaign is having this legally questionable Leviathan on our hands and discussing fuel costs.


Hans

If it makes you feel any better, the PCs who eventually came into my Tavonni campaign had somehow captured an Azhanti High Lightning-class down in the Outrim Void. I wasn't there, but I was told it had something to do with a planet that had a swarm of small ships. Plus a lot of deception on the PC's part as they offered to "help" the AHL against an incoming enemy - and then somehow docked and boarded the ship. Dunno where the Marines were.

Anyway, that's why the "Real" campaign has the Bright Light down at Vargo's Star, while the more-fit-for-consumption TNE version has the ship with the Tavonni Planetary Navy (and a sanitized version of the "salvage" story...)

;-) ;-)

 

[rancke]

The nature of the Wiki is not such that every last word is Canon. The fact is, anyone can post, and then the administrators have to look at things. That doesn't guarantee that the comments are (or are NOT) Canon.

Absolutely correct. Thomas does try to distinguish between canon and non-canon, and those of the contributors who are concious of the difference tries to make it clear, but some people tend to overlook it. Also, in some cases it's difficult not to mix the two to a greater or lesser degree. The wiki is a tool, and you have to know how to use it.

One very useful feature is the 'history' button, which shows you who first entered the article and what changes that have been made since.

The same is true of versions. Most "historical" Mongoose material can be assumed to be Canon in the absence of a contrary statement, as can most GURPS -- but that doesn't leave every word of anything Canonical, even with a license. I even flip-flop on Cirque, teasing myself mainly...it's Canon so far as T5 goes, I guess.

Also, just because something is canon doesn't mean it's true. If you have two pieces of canon that contradict each other, at least one of them MUST be untrue.

There is Canon material and HISTORY to make clear that IN and IISS have separate and independent authority from the subsector and even sector nobility. This is actually well described in the Mongoose book on Fleets which I skimmed in a bookstore just the other day.

Sure, just as a Royal Navy captain under Admiralty orders was independent of the governor of a province he happened to visit. But ships stationed in a province were subject to orders from the governor.

The history, though, is implicit in the history of the Fifth Frontier War -- Santanocheev was in command until he received a command from the Emperor -- yes, you read that right, and I meant it.

But we don't know why he was in command. My surmise is that the original, Admiralty-appointed sector admiral was removed for some reason (e.g. dead, sick, arrested) and that Sector Duchess Delphine appointed him brevet sector admiral (he was a lowly rear admiral a mere 18 months earlier -- but a rear admiral with a title).

Neither Norris nor the Duchess of Mora (previously considered the Sector Duchess in all but title) could fire Santanocheev or take control of the IN.

I disagree. Not only could Delphine take control of the IN (by appointing the son of a faithful supporter sector admiral), there's no way Santanocheev could have gone from junior rear admiral to senior-most sector admiral in 18 months without Delphine's interference.

And, of course, stepping in when some unusual circumstance makes the routine rules inadequate is precisely the purpose of delegating authority to the dukes.

The IN was loyal to the Emperor, and Santanocheev's position was derived from the Emperor.

Yes, through the Emperor's direct representative on the scene.

Once Norris had the Warrant in his hands, though, he WAS the Emperor for purposes of prosecuting the war. With that authority, he could (and did) effectively fire Santanocheev and take direct command.

Agreed.

At the same time, no admiral in his/her right mind absolutely ignores the civilian authority's concerns. The two separate hierarchies work in parallel, sometimes cooperating, sometimes at odds. A subsector Duke isn't going to be completely ignored when his or her Huscarles and squadrons are "called up," but that doesn't put him or her in charge.

No, what puts him in charge is that the emperor has delegated his (the emperor's) authority to him (the duke). Norris' problem was that Strephon had delegated greater authority in some cases (such as sector management and conduct of sector-spanning conflicts) to Delphine.

If the subsector duke wants something done he/she either uses personal forces or ASKS the IN...and hopes the IN agrees with his/her proposed action. It's a little like calling in Federal assistance in a disaster area -- you'll get cooperation, not obedience.

OR, it's like being the governor of a province during the Age of Sail and giving order to the King's forces stationed in your province; you'll get obedience or the offending officer will be broken if he's lucky, hanged if he's not.


Hans

 

[rancke]

As to that duke's powers with respect to the Imperial Navy, that's a puzzler. I'd long considered that the IN was independent of the nobility other than such influence that results from people wishing to curry favor or avoid making powerful enemies

Independent of the nobility as a class, yes. But I'm puzzled that you would consider them independent of the Emperor's personal representatives.

Only question then is that bit about one taking command of a fleet.

But that's an entirely different question. FFW has Norris as outranking some fleet admirals and being outranked by other fleet admirals in a military sense, which is a totally separate matter from what civilian powers his civilian rank grants him.

(I will repeat, because it seems to need being repeated, that there is nothing impossible, or even odd, about a civilian governor being able to give orders to national forces stationed in his territory. Especially if he's out of communication with the central authority. That's what governors are for (Or were for).)

I came up with the military rank automatically granted by being a high duke, not because I think it's a good idea but because it explained that bit. Actually, I think it's a terrrible idea, but I thought of it as something that became law for historical reasons (most likely during the Civil War) and hasn't been repealed because it hasn't been a problem -- very few high dukes prefer gadding about as an IN admiral to being back in their capitals doing their job.

Note, BTW, that in "reality" Norris did not at any time function as an IN admiral. It's one of those might-have-beens that game designers come up with to spice up a boardgame, sometimes based on very iffy surmises.


Hans

 

[Reban]

Independent of the nobility as a class, yes. But I'm puzzled that you would consider them independent of the Emperor's personal representatives.

But even the Emperors personal representatives would have to respect chain of command.

Just because one has a superior rank (even that stemming from the highest authority, the Emperor) doesn't mean that one can issue orders contrary or not in line with orders coming down the lawful chain of command.

If I was the Emperor's representative I don't think I could tell a warship captain to ignore his orders and detach himself to my command for some purpose that the Emperor wishes.

Rather I could request or compel his superiors to release him and his ship to my command based on the fact that I am "about the Emperor's business" and it "does not interfere with operational requirements".

Rather than "independent" the IN has other priorities to take into account.

Rank hath it's privileges but there are safe guards against abuse or careless use.

 

[rancke]

But even the Emperors personal representatives would have to respect chain of command.

How often do I have to point out that civilians, like for example governors, can be and historically often were in the chain of command? Or possibly the troops had orders from their superiors to do as the governor told them to, which may formally be different but in practice amounted to the same thing.

Just because one has a superior rank (even that stemming from the highest authority, the Emperor) doesn't mean that one can issue orders contrary or not in line with orders coming down the lawful chain of command.

Actually, a high noble's imperium [GT: Nobles] allows him to do just that, though he had better be able to justify himself afterwards. But I'm talking about a duke's normal powers even without invoking his imperium.

If I was the Emperor's representative I don't think I could tell a warship captain to ignore his orders and detach himself to my command for some purpose that the Emperor wishes.

Why not? I mean, I'm not saying it's necessarily the way things HAS to work, but neither do I see why it can't be that way.

I see that "you can't possibly violate the chain of command" trope all the time, but I've never understood why. "It's a bad idea", I can understand. "Current US law doesn't allow it", I can understand. But "the universe will not allow it" I don't get.

Rather I could request or compel his superiors to release him and his ship to my command based on the fact that I am "about the Emperor's business" and it "does not interfere with operational requirements".

Except that his superiors aren't there and your superior (the Emperor) isn't there. There's just you and him. And his superiors work for your superior. And you just told him that due to circumstances that neither his nor your superiors are aware of, it has become necessary to change his orders. The purpose of delegating authority is to allow someone closer to the action to make the decisions.

Let me emphasize that I'm not saying that the law HAS to be that you can order him around. I just don't see why it can't be that way.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

With a lag time in communication with sector superiors anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months I can't see it working any other way.

A Zho fleet is one jump from Regina, sector admiralty is between six to eight weeks away. Is it the IN fleet Admiral that declares a state of war or is it the duke?

 

[rancke]

With a lag time in communication with sector superiors anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months I can't see it working any other way.

Well, yes, but I wanted to dispose of the opposite notion, that it couldn't possibly work that way, first.


Hans

 

[savage]

What do you give your Sector Dukes as a warship to keep the lesser Nobles on the straight-and-narrow?

I consider this to be the biggest ship most PC's could encounter...(but almost certainly not to defeat, unless infiltration is used). Along with several escorts & auxilleries (depending on the situation, maybe a few troop ships etc) this should be able to suppress dissent in any one system of the Duke's Sector.

I envision;

a 30kton Colonial Battlecruiser (TL15 assuming they have a TL15 shipyard)
M6 J3 Computer-9 (military grade sensors)

What no Death Star?

I'd agree with Aramis that they're given a flag status. Also, that nobles prefer Yachts to being battle ready, that is what the Navy is for, in the 3I.

 

[Carlobrand]

...Could you provide a reference? ...

Ah, there it is: GURPS Nobles, page 62: "Emperor Strephon issued far-reaching reforms of the Imperial military command structure in 1116. These reforms gave the archdukes a much greater role in military command, while reducing the role of sector dukes. The reforms also streamlined chains of command at the highest levels."

I found it interesting that CT/MT seemed to evolve from a "subsector navy" model to a "reserve" model in the CT/MT milieu at about the same time that GURPS undergoes "far-reaching reforms" that "streamlined chains of command at the highest levels." Not sure what it means, but it's interesting.

Terminology aside, a Duke or Duchess tends to administrate an area the rough size of a subsector. ...

Hey, Aramais, happy new year. Yes, we know that. (And, it's "administer" )

...The nature of the Wiki is not such that every last word is Canon. ...

Yes, we know that too. Wiki is neither a primary source nor a good source since we can't easily tell what material comes from what source and since contributors seem to feel free to add noncanon material without always identifying it as noncanon. Bugs the heck out of me. However, Wiki does often cite sources for some its material, and I don't have access to all the primary sources, so sometimes my only option when it's citing something I don't have is to point Wiki out and hope for someone to come up with a primary source reference that will clarify or endorse the Wiki entry - or refute it. Either's good.

...The same is true of versions. Most "historical" Mongoose material can be assumed to be Canon in the absence of a contrary statement, as can most GURPS -- but that doesn't leave every word of anything Canonical, even with a license. ...

:rant:Unfortunately, and barring a ruling from "The Man" on a specific bit, that leaves us vulnerable to a flip-flopping situation where someone goes, "Oh, that's Mongoose," and then folk say, "No, Mongoose is canon," and later someone says, "This from Mongoose says that," and folk say, "No, that really doesn't apply to CT/MT/et al." Hard to debate OTU canon if folk are trying to have it both ways. Unless Mark hands down a ruling, I have to consider that any given bit has at least the potential to be canon and is deserving of discussion without being unfairly discounted out of hand.:rant:

:coffeesip:

...There is Canon material and HISTORY to make clear that IN and IISS have separate and independent authority from the subsector and even sector nobility. ...

Details, please. MT at least appears to be granting oversight authority to the sector duke - and IISS has not been under discussion.

...The history, though, is implicit in the history of the Fifth Frontier War -- Santanocheev was in command until he received a command from the Emperor -- yes, you read that right, and I meant it. Neither Norris nor the Duchess of Mora (previously considered the Sector Duchess in all but title) could fire Santanocheev or take control of the IN. The IN was loyal to the Emperor, and Santanocheev's position was derived from the Emperor. ...

I'm very glad you meant it. Unfortunately, it's a straw man argument. If you look back a bit, you'll see that no one has made the assertion that the nobles - any noble - could fire the Sector Admiral or take control of the IN short of a warrant. (Well, technically they DID take control in MT, but it wasn't a chain of command thing. It was Sector Admirals abrogating their oath to the Emperor to instead follow a Grand Duke.)

The actual situation at hand evolves from the whole sector duke warship idea, which leads to the question of what if any actual military power the sector duke had at hand to deal with an issue. Led to a comment from someone about a duke ordering training maneuvers in some upstart baron's backyard, to my response that I wasn't sure dukes had authority to give orders to the IN unless they were in fact a member of the Admiralty, to Hans' response that Mongoose had published a work of his (A Festive Occasion) in which he posited that high dukes (i.e. the sector duke and the various subsector dukes) held the rank of fleet admiral ex officio (by reason of their office) and had some limited authority to take command of IN fleets. He had based that on the observation that Norris, while canonically leaving the IN as a commander, nonetheless held the rank of Fleet Admiral in Fifth Frontier War and could command a fleet even without the warrant (though in fact in the game the Duke had rather low seniority and was outranked by most of the other fleet admirals).

This in turn led to my attempt to reconcile the conflicting views with the idea that, "in his/her capacity as representative of the Emperor responsible for the supervision of the Imperial Navy in his/her sector, a sector duke is granted the title of Fleet Admiral with all the rights and privileges thereto pertaining. In that capacity, the Sector Duke has the right to access any and all naval information necessary for the exercise of his supervisory authority, which information he/she uses to provide independent reports to the Emperor concerning the operations and preparedness of the Imperial Navy in his sector."

(The supervision bit derives from MT Rebellion Sourcebook, page 28, as modified by errata.)

I further suggested, in exploring Hans' notion that a high duke can take command of fleets, that the rank might also confer authority to take command of a fleet "in exigent circumstances," - subject to review and possible countermand by the Admiralty. Given that his position as head of the civilian administration of a subsector would make him the most knowledgeable source about the details of the operation of that subsector (and therefore best positioned to know when and to what extent there was a need to resort to military force), that one could not necessarily count on a fleet admiral taking a civilian leader's advice in such matters, and that to wait to get orders from the admiralty might lead to disaster in some cases, I posited that a high duke would have authority to order out the fleet when, in his opinion, circumstances do not allow sufficient time to process a request for orders through the normal chain of command. That was in keeping with the Trav idea of long communication times and the need for the "man on the spot" to be able to call the shots rather than wait for orders from distant masters, and was roughly analogous to a governor ordering out the National Guard.

Given the option, I will generally prefer to find some way to integrate new canon, when there isn't an actual overt conflict. Hans' work does constitute potential canon, until and unless it is overriden by Mark or found to be in conflict with some other element of canon. I haven't found anything that overtly conflicts with it - seems to hit in an area where there was a degree of ambiguity. So, unless someone's about to say that Mark has delivered a decree decanonizing A Festive Occasion, or unless someone can point to a piece of canon that overtly repudiates his piece, I don't see that there's a problem integrating his view of things into the overall canonical structure - other than the fact that some simply don't like it.

 

[aramis]

It's made clear (in Survival Margin) that Norris suspected the warrant had crashed where it did... on an interdicted world. In going down to get it, if he failed, he'd have been either executed or devolved to a prisoner and interned into an imperial prison... but if the warrant were present and blank (as he had been told it should be), once he found it, the illegal act of retrieval of the warrant was no longer illegal...

It also notes that, indeed, he did self promote, but also that when he did so, the order to make him the archduke was already en route...

A warrant is a powerful bit. It compels the military to treat the bearer as the Emperor's Voice. They act in loco imperator. Their word is as good as law. They do what they do for the good of the imperium with the blessings of His Imperial Majesty.

It's important to realize the character of Norris is a particularly practical man, but one who can and will take great risks. He and some volunteers take a ship down and give him the power to sack Santanocheeve in loco imperator... in the name of the Emperor. About the only people who don't get worried when a warrant is verified are Archdukes.

 

[Carlobrand]

But even the Emperors personal representatives would have to respect chain of command.

Just because one has a superior rank (even that stemming from the highest authority, the Emperor) doesn't mean that one can issue orders contrary or not in line with orders coming down the lawful chain of command.

If I was the Emperor's representative I don't think I could tell a warship captain to ignore his orders and detach himself to my command for some purpose that the Emperor wishes.

Rather I could request or compel his superiors to release him and his ship to my command based on the fact that I am "about the Emperor's business" and it "does not interfere with operational requirements".

Rather than "independent" the IN has other priorities to take into account.

Rank hath it's privileges but there are safe guards against abuse or careless use.

GURPS Nobles - and it's not so codified in other game systems, to my knowledge - develops the idea of the Imperial Mandate:

"The Imperial system of government operates on two parallel 'chains of command.' Both chains pass from the Emperor, down through multiple layers of authority, ending with the billions of rank-and-file sophonts who do the everyday work of government. One chain is made up of the bulk of the Imperial civilian ministries and military organizations; the other consists only of the Imperium's high nobles. ...

"In short, the Imperial bureaucracy and military manage Imperial government, but it is ultimately controlled by the high nobility in the name of the Emperor. The legal authority under which the high nobles exert this control is called the
Imperial Mandate. ...

"A noble with the Imperial Mandate over a given territory has far-reaching authority to command all Imperial activities and personnel within his demesne. ... The high noble supervises their activities, and can give them legally binding orders. "

In essence, if I understand it, there is the Imperial bureaucracy, including the military bureaucracy, and then there is the high nobility who act as the eyes, ears, and mouth of the Emperor within their demesne with power to issue orders - on the emperor's behalf, not for their own needs, and only within a limited scope: "The Imperial Mandate can only be wielded in accordance with Imperial law." So, in GURPS a noble can in fact issue orders "contrary or not in line with orders coming down the lawful chain of command," so long as those orders are both in accordance with Imperial law and intended to serve the needs of the Emperor. That extended not just to dukes but to counts and barons as well, within the administrative regions they'd been assigned to handle. He would be wise to do so sparingly, lest the chain of command complain to the Emperor and the noble end up standing before the Emperor being asked why he's spending so much time second-guessing the Emperor's officers, but he nonetheless has authority to do it.

Or had. There was some sort of restructure in 1116:

"The current (much simplified) structure of the High Command is recent, dating to Emperor Strephon's military reforms of 1116. The earlier command structure was a much more complex network of official chains of command and unofficial but equally crucial chains of noble supervision and oversight. The reforms effectively ejected a large number of nobles from supervisory roles over the military: many of these nobles remain resentful."

So, Imperial Law was apparently modified to resolve some of the obvious problems with the aforementioned system.

 

[rancke]

It's made clear (in Survival Margin) that Norris suspected the warrant had crashed where it did... on an interdicted world. In going down to get it, if he failed, he'd have been either executed or devolved to a prisoner and interned into an imperial prison... but if the warrant were present and blank (as he had been told it should be), once he found it, the illegal act of retrieval of the warrant was no longer illegal...

It's made clear (in The Spinward Marches Campaign, p. 16) that Norris suspected that the warrant that Strephon had issued (to him specifically and not a blank) was on a cruiser that had crashed on an interdicted world (Algine). The problem was that he was prohibited from going down on an interdicted world without permission from the Emperor. The warrant was permission, but if the warrant wasn't there, he risked his career (no mention of imprisonment).

Where in Survival Margin is any of this contradicted?

What isn't spelled out, but could be an explanation for why Norris, as the Emperor's representative, couldn't permit any contravention of interdicts he jolly well pleased (which seems rather strange to me), is that Santanocheev's ban was backed by Delphine's greater authority as the Emperor's representative, making Strephon the only person who could trump Delphine's orders.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

But even the Emperors personal representatives would have to respect chain of command.

I guess the question is what if there is no effective chain of command i.e. the links are too far apart.

If a Roman legion was sent to a province would they report to the governor? I assume so. Would the governor have absolute authority though? Their authority might not extend to standing orders or explicit orders deemed to have come direct from the Emperor so maybe they'd have authority as long as it didn't contradict a higher one.

In Traveller terms it could work the same way with a fleet being sent to a sub-sector under the authority of the local Duke but then alternatively if there are sector fleets then they might be attached to those and the Duke has no control over them or both at once.

The simplest system might be if the noble titles were naval ranks with Captain as Knight and Barons and above as ranks of admiral.

 

[rancke]

Or had. There was some sort of restructure in 1116:

"The current (much simplified) structure of the High Command is recent, dating to Emperor Strephon's military reforms of 1116. The earlier command structure was a much more complex network of official chains of command and unofficial but equally crucial chains of noble supervision and oversight. The reforms effectively ejected a large number of nobles from supervisory roles over the military: many of these nobles remain resentful."

So, Imperial Law was apparently modified to resolve some of the obvious problems with the aforementioned system.

This is one place where the difference between the GTU and the OTU may be significant. When in 1116 did Strephon promulgate this reform? If it was after 132-1116, it never happened in the OTU. Even if it was before, there still would only have been a few months between the orders for the reforms going out and news of his death kicking over the whole ant-hill. In the GTU, OTOH, there has been between three and four peaceful years to implement them, since GTU books are all written as of early 1120.


Hans