Sector Duke Warship

[GypsyComet]

It seems that Mongoose is granting more authority than His Excellency has in CT, or rather than he had as of 1107. Are they implying a postwar reorganization of command?

It is worth noting that when 1107 was written much of the power structure we are now aware of had not been written down. What a Duke was capable of was still a mystery, though the implications were clear that Norris was breaking a few rules along the way.

It would later develop that the 5FW was being run by more senior Dukes of the Marches (Mora and Lunion), none of whom had the INI background or the experience with the Zhodani of Norris. He supposedly convinced Strephon that he should be running the show, took authority over the Imperial forces on that basis, and forced an end to the war. If he broke a few eggs on the way, so be it; success made his path the correct one.

And any Admiral who treats a sitting Duke like "a jumped up Commander" had better be able to defend that behavior (or not survive the war), because once the shooting stops he's probably toast.

Huh?

Indeed.

Sector Dukes are a very small fraternity, and until the reinstatement of the Archdukes, they are only subject to the Emperor. In most cases, they are only likely to leave their sectors for a coronation or the occasional trip to the Moot. If you have two Sector Dukes trying to order each other around you're already in a state of war and the rules no longer apply.

 

[rancke]

CT Spinward Marches Campaign page 11, "Duke Norris Aella Aledon of Regina stood at the head of the civil bureaucracy in the war zone. Before the war, he had no influence in the military preparations. Because of his connections with Naval Intelligence (he was an NI officer in his youth), he was aware of the mismanagement on the Imperial side, and of the continued preparations on the Zhodani side.
"Norris appealed directly to the Emperor for command of the lmperial forces in the Marches, believing that he, the Duke, could best command the response to a Zhodani attack."

I don't see how any of this contradicts anything I wrote.

His Excellency serves as a 1 star admiral in the FFW boardgame, with seniority above Romao, Stvi, and Gascogne but below the other 1-stars, and positioned to control what SMC would call the 1st Fleet out of Regina. He's actually rather low in precedence - 11th of 14 - and there are several 1-stars above him...

Wait, WHAT?!?

Upon checking I find that you're absolutely right, which leaves me completely nonplussed. Not so much because my memory has played me false, because that has happened before, but because I'm utterly unable to understand how I ever got the notion that subsector dukes outranked all fleet admirals in the first place when Norris clearly doesn't outrank all fleet admirals.

...and of course the two-stars.

No surprise there. Santanocheev is able to give Norris an order not to visit interdicted worlds in his own duchy. An order that it would supposedly break him to go against unless he could find his Imperial Warrant.

His rank to me implied a war-time reactivation of a reserve status rank...

So it would to me, but according to other canon he leaves the IN with the rank of a commander in 1098. [BtC:8]

...but you're suggesting his title as Duke of Regina gives him operational control over Imperial forces within his duchy (though apparently not over planning and preparation).

No, the reference I cited state that his office as Duke of Regina gives him the rank of fleet admiral.

I came up with that to explain why Norris, a retired IN commander, outranked fleet admirals (though I was mistaken about him outranking all fleet admirals, he still outranks some) and why he outranked them outside his own duchy.

Duchy equals Duchy of Regina? That's Regina, Jewell, and parts of Lanth and Aramis? His Excellency has operational control of the 193rd at Efate and the 125th at Jewell?

No quite. Absent any admiral that outranks him, he has operational control of all forces in his location, inside or outside the Duchy of Regina. This could be a simplification for the sake of game play, but a simplification of what?

But the board game rules imply whatever admirals are associated with the 193rd and 125th would have operational control of those fleets.

But if there was a higher-ranking admiral in the same location he would be in overall command. The High Command (the player) can't give an order for Goolanzoon to be in charge even if Liang, Shumii, Shanaskar, or Mtume is there.

Does this also imply that the counter mix should include a Duke of Rhylanor who has operational control over the 212th?

Not unless he played a significant part in the war. There must be hundreds of lesser admirals in the Spinward Marches and the reinforcements, only 14 of which are featured in the countermix.

It seems that Mongoose is granting more authority than His Excellency has in CT, or rather than he had as of 1107. Are they implying a postwar reorganization of command?

No, the adventure is set in 1105.

Have to go, more later.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

that was exactly my thinking, however the group convinced me that a smart Duke has an impressive yacht, but uses his Imperial connections to whip up any real muscle he might need. A Duke can easily give orders for "training maneuvers" for a BatRon in any upstart Noble's system, and avoid the expense of maintaining a real warship. Any situations that a Duke would not want to use Imperial assets are probably best handled discretely anyways...

IMTU Colonial Fleets are almost entirely SDB's and other boats (some asteroids almost battleship in size), and the rest being mostly jump-capable auxillaries with a few merchant escorts. It is a rich world that maintains a jump-capable battle fleet. Things like that start trade wars, eventually, so the local Dukes keep a close check on such things politically. Worlds with high-tech class-A starports get Imperial Fleet contracts (as long as they cooperate).

Of course, outside the Imperium things are different....which is where I like to send my poor PC's...

Fair enough. I prefer things more Ottoman/Byzantine with the center deliberately creating two separate power structures: nobility and IN, so they cancel out.

I must admit I like the idea of a dual purpose Ducal yacht / planetary punishment beating ship - makes me think of that noble family in Dune whose name escapes me.

 

[salochin999]

Regarding "Colonial Fleets" I think I may have got the idea from Mongoose - not sure but regardless they seem to be referenced in various places.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Navy

"Within the frontier itself, colonial forces have been strengthened and centered around selected "islands of resistance," high population, high technology worlds capable of withstanding protracted sieges. These forward elements are intended to delay any hostile advances and disrupt sieges of key worlds, until major reserves can intervene and reestablish the status quo."

 

[rancke]

'Colonial' is used in at least two different (though overlapping) meanings. It can be planetary forces (as distinct from Imperial) or it can be forces raised at the subsector level (which would include Imperial subsector forces (a.k.a. duchy forces). 'Imperial' can also mean two different things: regular Imperial forces (as opposed to colonial) or forces raised and maintained by the Imperium (which can include Imperial subsector forces).

To sum up, Imperial forces are organized on three levels:

Regular Imperial forces, which are Imperial forces
Subsector forces, which are Imperial AND colonial
Planetary forces, which are colonial​

This is, obviously, a potential source of confusion because practically none of the references speak of more than two categories, Imperial and colonial. And this is compounded by MT's retcon of subsector navies into reserve fleets.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It is worth noting that when 1107 was written much of the power structure we are now aware of had not been written down.

It's even more worth noting that that was when 1107 was first written up, more than 30 years ago. Since then, a lot more information has been written, and we're not limited to the bits that are 30 years old.

What a Duke was capable of was still a mystery, though the implications were clear that Norris was breaking a few rules along the way.

Implications, nothing. It was expressly stated that he was risking his position by going to a world that he had been forbidden to visit.

It would later develop that the 5FW was being run by more senior Dukes of the Marches (Mora and Lunion), none of whom had the INI background or the experience with the Zhodani of Norris.

Well, it's a logical deduction that if Norris wasn't in charge in his own duchy, someone who outranked him must be, and absent someone with an Imperial warrant, there's really only the sector duchess that can have that kind of juice. But I don't recall seeing it stated expressly anywhere, and I don't recall Duke Luis being mentioned as outranking Norris, nor of having any influence on the conduct of the war. Though as an ally of Delphine he presumably supported her.

He supposedly convinced Strephon that he should be running the show, took authority over the Imperial forces on that basis, and forced an end to the war. If he broke a few eggs on the way, so be it; success made his path the correct one.

Not supposedly. He did convince Strephon and once he got his hand on his warrant, he assumed command on the authority of that warrant.

And any Admiral who treats a sitting Duke like "a jumped up Commander" had better be able to defend that behavior (or not survive the war), because once the shooting stops he's probably toast.

As I mentioned earlier, the text is per 1105, so no wartime conduct involved. Nor does it say that those admirals treat him as a jumped-up commander; it says that they resent taking orders from him.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

One question: when we speak of the dukes, MT seems to be implying that only the sector duke has the supervisory authority, as if there is a body of dukes responsible for duchies and the chief among them is the "sector" duke responsible for the sector as a whole. Mongoose seems to be applying that authority to all high dukes in a given sector. For the purpose of this exercise, does "sector duke" mean the one high duke assigned to manage the sector as a whole (the "first among equals") or does it mean any of the high dukes in a given sector (as differentiated from the honor dukes and the rank dukes)?

Okay, let's work with this:

Norris left the IN as a commander. Norris is seen in FFW as an admiral of lowish precedence - but it is acknowledged that FFW, as a wargame, can only have limited relevance to milieu canon. Norris is also described in a canon supplement as carrying the rank of Fleet Admiral "ex officio" (by right of office) as a result of his rank as "high duke". Norris is described in SMC as having no influence in military preparation - but he clearly had knowledge of them or he would not have realized there was a problem. MT Rebellion Sourcebook provides a command chart which gives a sector duke supervisory authority over the IN sector fleet in his/her sector, while granting command authority to the Admiralty, but the Admiralty does not answer to the Duke and the Duke does not answer to the Admiralty - both instead separately answer directly to the Emperor.

So, we say that in his/her capacity as representative of the Emperor responsible for the supervision of the Imperial Navy in his/her sector, a sector duke is granted the title of Fleet Admiral with all the rights and privileges thereto pertaining. In that capacity, the Sector Duke has the right to access any and all naval information necessary for the exercise of his supervisory authority, which information he/she uses to provide independent reports to the Emperor concerning the operations and preparedness of the Imperial Navy in his sector.

The Sector Duke further has the right to take personal command of a fleet under an "exigent circumstances" clause that allows the sector duke to take direct action in the name of the Emperor when, in the Duke's sole opinion, circumstances do not allow sufficient time to process a request for orders through the normal chain of command. This right extends to the right to order whatever supportive action is required to support the operation of the fleet on the mission ordered by the Duke.

The admiralty, in that event, must be apprised through normal channels of the Duke's action and reasons for action. The admiralty has authority to either endorse the Duke's action and order whatever supporting action is required, or to countermand the Duke and order the original admiral or another admiral to assume command of the fleet in question. No liability will attach to any officer or rating for following the Duke's lawful orders nor for accepting a lawful countermand from the Admiralty. Both parties must make a full report to the Emperor including their reasons for action. In the event of a disagreement between the Sector Duke and the Admiralty, the Emperor remains the final judge of what action is correct and reserves the right to administer sanction as he sees fit, ranging from official censure to removal from office/position, to either or both parties should he feel that their judgments or actions did not serve the best interests of the Imperium.

Should the sector duke, in the course of his duties as Imperial Supervisor of the sector IN, observe failures in operations or preparedness that result directly from negligence or incompetence of sector Admiralty staff and that are serious enough to affect the security of the sector, he/she may further petition for a warrant from the Emperor granting full command authority over the sector Admiralty in the Emperor's name, in order to take whatever corrective actions are needed to eliminate the deficiencies and prevent problems in future. The Emperor will review the petition and either deny it, approve it, or order such other interventions as he deems appropriate.

Am I understanding that right?

 

[aramis]

Carlo - you missed that individual planetary navies are expected, and not answerable directly to the IN, but definitely supervised by the IN. "... any world with a tech code of Early Stellar (Tech Level 9+) and Moderate Population (Population 4+)." (Reb SB, p 29).

Keep in mind, tho: CT sources are based upon the 3I in 1100 to 1108.
MT is 1117 to 1135
MGT is 1105-1107 so far.

There are no "Duchy Navies" in MT - the subector duke's authority is limited basically to oversight of the other nobles... There is text elsewhere that grants them authority to take command of the reserve forces for local needs.

Hans' insistence that the Duchies are foundational is not supported by and is counter to MT sources. What we see in canon is that the subsector duke is instrumental in the courts and does local naval patrols - probably with forces seconded from the planetary navies, because the subsector navies ceased to exist after the 5FW.

 

[rancke]

Hans' insistence that the Duchies are foundational is not supported by and is counter to MT sources.

But it is supported by CT sources. In spades. One can either argue that the CT sources have been superceded by MT (which implies that MT in turn has been superceded by MgT) or one can work to reconcile all the sources. I prefer the second option.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Carlo - you missed that individual planetary navies are expected, and not answerable directly to the IN, but definitely supervised by the IN. "... any world with a tech code of Early Stellar (Tech Level 9+) and Moderate Population (Population 4+)." (Reb SB, p 29). ...

Reb SB also says planetary navies are not jump capable, ergo confined to activities within their home systems. It'd be interesting to discuss their place in the scheme of things, but I didn't consider it relevant to the immediate issue as their reach is clearly limited to their own systems.

... Keep in mind, tho: CT sources are based upon the 3I in 1100 to 1108.
MT is 1117 to 1135
MGT is 1105-1107 so far.

There are no "Duchy Navies" in MT ...

Ah, I see that. MT character generation identifies the Imperial Navy, Reserve Navy, and System Squadron, whereas CT High Guard II had the Imperial Navy, Subsector Navy, and Planetary Navy. One infers that sometime between the end of the Fifth Frontier War and the supposed assassination of Strephon in 1116, there was a major reorganization of the Colonial/Subsector forces.

As of CT, the subsector was the basic unit of Imperial government above the planetary:

Supplement 3, pg 2, "subsector: An artificial mapping concept intended to delineate and define locations within the galaxy. In most cases, the subsector is used as a governmental unit within the Imperium. ..."

Subsectors were governed by subsector dukes:

Supplement 8, pg. 7, "Interstellar government begins at the subsector level - on one world designated the subsector capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected by higher levels of government. This duke has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors. But at the same time, the duke owes fealty to the higher levels of government, ultimately to the Emperor himself."

With the presence of a subsector unit and a subsector government, it was logical to conclude that the subsector duke held authority over the subsector fleet except in wartime, as portrayed in Fifth Frontier War.

The introduction of MegaTraveller brings a change, but that change cannot be backdated too far before 1117 because that is when MT starts its milieu. Ergo, CT's description of the milieu remains canon until some unstated date before the assassination, and most likely some date after the Fifth Frontier War ends (since even if it had been started elsewhere earlier, it could not be implemented in the Marches until the war ended).

... the subector duke's authority is limited basically to oversight of the other nobles...

Yes, as of some undefined date between the end of the Fifth Frontier war in 1110 and the supposed assassination of Strephon in 1116. We cannot state with certainty that it was limited before that.

... Hans' insistence that the Duchies are foundational is not supported by and is counter to MT sources. ...

Which address the state of affairs in the Marches after 1116, or rather after some undefined date between 1110 and 1116. Whether or not it is supported by pre-MT sources depends on what you read into the data I presented above.

There is also some change in the sector government organization, but I'm not familiar with the sources. All I know is CT talks about the subsector as a unit of government, and then the Wiki starts talking about duchies that in some cases appear to encompass more than one subsector and fold in subsidiary counties and baronies. I'm not familiar with that structure, what it evolves from, or how it relates to the CT structure.

 

[aramis]

In looking at just CT sources, Carlo, the concept of a duchy isn't presented, either. It's a Hans-ism and/or GURPS-ism.

It's not a "Duchy" - it's a subsector, which happens to be administratively headed by a duke or a count. In a handful of cases, a subsector has no government of its own and is administered by a neighboring subsector.

Its also worth noting that the careers are not as canonical as in later editions; CT was (like MGT) intended to be a generic game. That CT Bk 5 describes the Subsector Navies doesn't mean they're canonically present; other canonical references to subsector fleets do.

We also see a few oddities; Aramis/Aramis has Marquis, but he's apparently got some offworld pull, and his palace is almost as big as the downport.

We also are told of multiworld polities having joined and remaining intact within the imperium; only one is explicitly called out as such after 1984 - One of the Archduke has a 7-world fief that happens to be one such polity, and he's the hereditary leader thereof. No discussion of the history is present. (Atlas of the imperium).

It is possible that such multi-world polities might have a count's or marquis' title affiliated with it. We're not shown examples.

 

[rancke]

In looking at just CT sources, Carlo, the concept of a duchy isn't presented, either. It's a Hans-ism and/or GURPS-ism.

Just because it's a Hans-ism doesn't make it an invalid concept.

CT uses the term 'subsector' interchangably for the astrographical subdivision and for the political unit headed by a duke. And in many cases the two are synonymous. A duchy (or, if you prefer, ducal territory) is a subsector is a duchy. Mora, Trin, and possibly Lunion (if it does not include the County of Caladbolg) seem to be examples of this. However, it is not always the case. The territory ruled by the duke in charge of Glisten includes a bit of District 268 and a bit of Pax Rulin. The Duke of Rhylanor has a bit of Aramis and (probably) a bit of Lanth. If Vilis is a ducal territory (it's not, but I'm trying to stick to CT sources here) then it lacks a good chunk of the subsector. Jewell lacks a big part of the subsector and answers to the Duke of Regina. Aramis is either divided between the dukes of Rhylanor, Regina, and Pretoria (it is, but that's post-CT evidence), or it is a truncated ducal territory that lacks the Aramis Trace (with the subsector capital) or it's a marquisate answering to the Duke of Rhylanor. There are four Imperial worlds in the Sword Worlds subsector that presumably are not an independent ducal territory, and if they are, they definitely do not cover an entire subsector. The Imperial part of Five Sisters does not cover the entire subsector and is under Naval administration, so not a ducal territory at all.

So using the term 'subsector' interchangably for an astrographical subdivision and for a ducal territory is sometimes imprecise. Which is why I have promoted the use of the term 'duchy' as a separate and distinct term for the political territory ruled by a subsector duke. And, I submit, the distinction is a very useful one. As well as an entirely accurate one, since 'duchy' is defined as "the territory of a duke or duchess".

It's not a "Duchy" - it's a subsector, which happens to be administratively headed by a duke or a count. In a handful of cases, a subsector has no government of its own and is administered by a neighboring subsector.

See above. A subsector is not always a ducal terrritory and vice versa.

If it helps, just mentally substitute the words 'territory ruled by a duke' for 'duchy' and 'subsector (astrographical not political)' for 'subsector'.

That CT Bk 5 describes the Subsector Navies doesn't mean they're canonically present...

But the mention of the Imperial Navy in the same paragraph that mentions subsector navies does.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Ah, I see that. MT character generation identifies the Imperial Navy, Reserve Navy, and System Squadron, whereas CT High Guard II had the Imperial Navy, Subsector Navy, and Planetary Navy. One infers that sometime between the end of the Fifth Frontier War and the supposed assassination of Strephon in 1116, there was a major reorganization of the Colonial/Subsector forces.

As well as the entire political organization of the Imperium, a change accomplished in less than a decade. Me, I assume that this did not actually happen.

of some undefined date between the end of the Fifth Frontier war in 1110 and the supposed assassination of Strephon in 1116. We cannot state with certainty that it was limited before that.

We can state with certainty that the limitations were quite limited:

"This duke has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors."​

'A free hand in government' implies broad executive, legislative, and judicial powers. Indeed, the judicial powers are explicitly mentioned in SMC.

There is also some change in the sector government organization, but I'm not familiar with the sources. All I know is CT talks about the subsector as a unit of government, and then the Wiki starts talking about duchies that in some cases appear to encompass more than one subsector and fold in subsidiary counties and baronies. I'm not familiar with that structure, what it evolves from, or how it relates to the CT structure.

The only change from CT that the use of the word 'duchy' denotes is a more precise terminology, to wit, distinguishing between the astrographical subsector and the political "subsector". See my previous post.


Hans

 

[rancke]

BTW, while the diagram om p. 28 of RbS does not show subsector dukes having civilian oversight (or 'noble supervision') over numbered fleets, the text on p. 27 does mention them explicitly: "Admirals must answer to several different authorities: the Duke of the subsector in which a fleet is located, the Duke of a sector in which a fleet is located, the Archduke of a domain in which the fleet is assigned."^*

^* The capitalization of the titles is from the original text.​

It also explicitly state that neither subsector nor sector dukes have formal authority over IN admirals but that nobles "insinuate themselves" in the "channels of command". Personally I think that this is pure applesauce, but that's what it says.

Given all that, I submit that it's perfectly defensible to posit that the diagram just omits the subsector dukes and that they have 'noble oversight' of the numbered fleets in their ducal territories. Unless explicitly overridden by their sector duke (as happened with Norris), of course.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

My design for a ship suitable for a sector duke would not worry about main weaponry.

It would have jump 6, and the facility to use drop tanks to extend its range in times of crisis.

Lots of defence - armour, screens, repulsor bays, high agility, a black globe.

More importantly it would have lots of jump 6 couriers - communication is key to control and if you are a month away from where stuff is happening with a lead time of a month to get your orders back your usefulness as a sector duke is very limited in times of crisis.

 

[Carlobrand]

In looking at just CT sources, Carlo, the concept of a duchy isn't presented, either. It's a Hans-ism and/or GURPS-ism.

It's not a "Duchy" - it's a subsector, which happens to be administratively headed by a duke or a count. In a handful of cases, a subsector has no government of its own and is administered by a neighboring subsector.
...

It's also a question of semantics, not substance. The Duke of Regina is the Duke of Regina: he is given hereditary (subject to approval of the Emperor and Moot on inheritance, if I recall) authority by the Emperor to manage the Regina subsector, and the person so assigned is granted the title of Duke (and a nice fief on Regina, if I recall). Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but an administrative region of an empire run on behalf of an emperor by a duke elevated by that emperor, assigned to that region by that emperor and serving in fealty to that emperor could be called a duchy, no?

Certainly the Wiki seems content to use that language, though again I'm not sure what specifically it sources to. I see, as you point out, that GURPS makes use of the term, "Duchy of Regina". Perhaps Mongoose does to, I don't know. I do know that there's some preference that milieu canon should cross rule sets where possible - least ways, whenever I try to say "that's GURPS" or "that's Mongoose", I seem to attract a very vigorously negative reaction. That being the case, if Hans prefers to use that language and GURPS is already using that language then I don't see that it's creating any problems.

Of substance, whether you call it a subsector or a duchy (in the case of those subsectors governed by a duke rather than by the Navy or some other arrangement), Supplement 8 seems to make pretty clear that an administrative region run by a duke on the Emperor's behalf is a "foundational" entity, that the subsector dukes enjoy broad authority and, unless there's some CT canon element that specifically states there are not subsector navies, I'd have to say the reference to a subsector navy in HG II - which occurs not just with respect to careers but with respect to who can procure ships where in ship construction - tends to imply the existence of subsector navy. It is logical to assume a duke with broad authority over the subsector also holds authority over that subsector navy, and I don't see evidence suggesting an alternative hypothesis.

As to that duke's powers with respect to the Imperial Navy, that's a puzzler. I'd long considered that the IN was independent of the nobility other than such influence that results from people wishing to curry favor or avoid making powerful enemies. However, MT clearly gives the sector duke a role in the IN hierarchy,and Hans correctly points out a quote in MT RS that speaks of admirals "answer(ing) to" a subsector duke, which language is quite a bit stronger than one would expect if it was only a question of currying favor or avoiding enmities. That's not the same as the subsector dukes ordering them about, but it does imply they have some role in the sector duke's supervision of the IN - as would make sense, since the sector duke can't be everywhere and the subsector dukes already have an administrative structure in place for supervising their subsectors and reporting to the sector duke.

Only question then is that bit about one taking command of a fleet. That one is undeniably a stretch, but it does have a certain logic to it if we assume that the subsector duke is most familiar with his subsector and that some problems might not wait for a report to get up to admiralty and for orders to work their way downward - especially if we're also saying that the new naval structure portrayed in MT took the once-subsector fleets out of the hands of the various dukes. An "exigent circumstances" clause would be one way of ensuring that, after implementing such a change, the various dukes would still have combat forces available to them if some urgent need arose within their subsectors. It would go far to mollifying dukes which once counted subsector navies among their resources.

 

[rancke]

If you check the history of those wiki articles with 'duchy' in them, many of them were written by me. (Though not all, e.g. Duchy of Oasis).


Hans

 

[aramis]

It's also a question of semantics, not substance. The Duke of Regina is the Duke of Regina: he is given hereditary (subject to approval of the Emperor and Moot on inheritance, if I recall) authority by the Emperor to manage the Regina subsector, and the person so assigned is granted the title of Duke (and a nice fief on Regina, if I recall). Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but an administrative region of an empire run on behalf of an emperor by a duke elevated by that emperor, assigned to that region by that emperor and serving in fealty to that emperor could be called a duchy, no?

Historically, no. The Duchy was only his own county, not the sum total of his county and those others who were ordered to obey him in loco regis. Historically, Dukes have usually been given the title to be regional leaders of supposed equals. Said office has ceased to have meaning, but it was important in the medieval era.

Likewise, the parallel religious terminology is easier to see. The Catholic Church still uses it.
Ecclesiastical Province - The area supervised by an Archbishop, as long as it is consisting of an Archdiocese and at least one additional diocese
Archdiocese - a diocese who's ordinary is an archbishop
Diocese - a "particular church" whose ordinary is a bishop

The Ecclesiastical Province of Alaska is the Archdiocese of Anchorage, and the Dioceses of Juneau, and Fairbanks. It's protos (head) is the Archbishop of Anchorage, and he is the Archbishop for Juneau and for Fairbanks, but it's totally improper to claim that "the Diocese of Juneau is part of the Archdiocese of Anchorage".

The Duchy is historically the same - The Duchy was their personal holding, but they headed a province. (This predates them becoming nominal equals, and "proper" feudalism.) Also note: currently, most of the ducal titles are royals, not nobles...

Note also the derivation of Duke: it's from the latin Dux,"leader". The Romano-Britains supposedly used the title Dux Bellorum for "War-leader"...

 

[rancke]

Historically, no.

What's your point? We're not talking about historical duchies. We're talking about a term that Merriam-Webster's Online dictionary defines as "the territory of a duke or duchess" which I've suggested using to denote the territories of Imperial dukes and duchesses instead of the more ambiguous and less accurate term 'subsector' used by early Traveller sources. Why do you object to that? As far as I can tell it makes absolutely no practical difference to any of your arguments.


Hans

 

[aramis]

What's your point? We're not talking about historical duchies. We're talking about a term that Merriam-Webster's Online dictionary defines as "the territory of a duke or duchess" which I've suggested using to denote the territories of Imperial dukes and duchesses instead of the more ambiguous and less accurate term 'subsector' used by early Traveller sources. Why do you object to that? As far as I can tell it makes absolutely no practical difference to any of your arguments.


Hans

Because the duchy should be the fief, not the administrative region. And they aren't the same. Further, Marc has not adopted your nomenclature, so it's non-canonical.