Securing the Bridge

[CosmicGamer]

I was just reading the rules about combat and cover. Rocks, corners of buildings, forest... And started thinking about cover on ships. Ducking behind the edge of a hatch and poking your head out perhaps.. and then I thought... Why not armored hatches with gun slits and ballistic view ports for the bridge, engineering and other locations crew might hold up in and try to protect?

Your thoughts?

 

[Vladika]

I was just reading the rules about combat and cover. Rocks, corners of buildings, forest... And started thinking about cover on ships. Ducking behind the edge of a hatch and poking your head out perhaps.. and then I thought... Why not armored hatches with gun slits and ballistic view ports for the bridge, engineering and other locations crew might hold up in and try to protect?

Your thoughts?

I can't imagine NOT having them. Armored cars (Trucks) have them and if they were present on aircraft 9-11...well...just thinking out loud...

 

[aramis]

I can't imagine NOT having them. Armored cars (Trucks) have them and if they were present on aircraft 9-11...well...just thinking out loud...

Armored cars don't need to maintain pressure integrity.

A firing port is a weak spot in a mechanical hatch; it's almost as likely to be blown in as fired out of. Plus, it's another point of failure in a high use piece of equipment.

For Iris Valves, any such hatch is superfluous. You just have a setting for 5cm or 10cm of center opening.

As for pre 9-11 aircraft, the locks on the cabins were often trivial to pick, easily forced, and the doors weren't structural metal. Many airlines have retrofit with light armored doors, with kick-in resistance, and with locks that actually matter.

 

[Vladika]

Armored cars don't need to maintain pressure integrity.

Decompression: Starships (and other vessels) depressurize their interiors before
combat whenever possible, the passengers and crew resorting to vacc suits for safety
and comfort. This procedure minimizes the danger due to explosive decompression as a battle result. In some cases, selected areas may remain pressurized (perhaps the
hold, for the safety of delicate cargo) while other areas are depressurized.
Any number of areas in the ship may be depressurized in the span of one turn
(1,000 seconds). Repressurization requires one turn. In practice, the following parts
of the ship may be individually pressure regulated: engineering section, hold,
bridge, staterooms (all as one group; on some ships, in groups of four or more),
turrets (individually). The pilot controls depressurization from the bridge.
Hull hits result in explosive decompression if pressure has not already been
lowered. Explosive decompression kills all persons in that section unless a vacc suit
is available and put on immediately. Throw dexterity to put on a vacc suit in an
emergency; apply DMs of double vacc suit skill.
-33&34- LBB2

So, decompression has already occurred.

A firing port is a weak spot in a mechanical hatch; it's almost as likely to be blown in as fired out of. Plus, it's another point of failure in a high use piece of equipment.

No, it really isn't. It is reinforced and stronger than the door/hath it is in. If your are talking "blown in" as in explosives, it's over anyway. Gunfire? No. As for "another point of failure in a high use piece of equipment" in itself it may never get used. As for the door/hatch? It can open and close forever, never effecting the firing port in any way.

For Iris Valves, any such hatch is superfluous. You just have a setting for 5cm or 10cm of center opening.

Iris valve? LOL If you want to let the partial opening used to allow leverage to further open it. Aside from that there is no view port as there would be in a properly construed door/hatch. The body of the person firing from the iris valve is exposed behind the open portion, eluding the eye and head if aiming. From the door/hatch view port slot combo no fataly vital part need be exposed. Aiming penalty should be applied though.

As for pre 9-11 aircraft, the locks on the cabins were often trivial to pick, easily forced, and the doors weren't structural metal. Many airlines have retrofit with light armored doors, with kick-in resistance, and with locks that actually matter.

To politically charged to say much more than the idiots finally started to get it right. Though, since that was the first "armed" hijacking in decades, who could (Can?) believe it would happen 4 times on the same day?

 

[Fovean]

MgT High Guard allows for Reinforced Hull, Reinforced Structure and Armored Bulkheads. So I'd say any or all of those extend to the interior sections as well, as far as personal combat is concerned. Especially (obviously) armored bulkheads.

In terms of fluff and mechanics, not sure how to play it out. Maybe the DM to hit or breach is equal to half the starship scale benefit (MgT HG pg 41, round down) and DM-1 per ton of armored bulkhead (see example same page). So the baddies trying to shoot at the engineers in the bulkhead example on MgT HG pg 41 would suffer DM-1 per ton x 3 tons = DM-3 to hit. Guys on the other side would suffer no such penalty but would have greatly reduced target opportunities...

Describe it as protected firing ports, hidden killholes, etc. Ships without the above mods gain no such benefit.

So in this case, smart hijackers would not show up with laser carbines and cutlasses like in CT, they'd have TDX and the biggest guns they could get.

I dunno, just riffing... it's an interesting question. Especially if the PCs want to MacGuyver some extra protection into their existing hull. Then again a lowly Type A might be in a 'Captain Phillips' situation where a few small firearms are all that's needed to force a crew onto the bridge or into engineering...

 

[McPerth]

So, decompression has already occurred.

This will depend on if you're deffending the bridge agains a hostile boarding (after having your ship damaged/crippled) or against kidnappers (with the ship more or less intact, at least structuraly.

 

[Rabbit 3]

This will depend on if you're deffending the bridge agains a hostile boarding (after having your ship damaged/crippled) or against kidnappers (with the ship more or less intact, at least structuraly.

If the situation is that bad then its probably all over for the defenders anyway.
After all the attackers will almost certainly have their own ship in close proximity, weapons hot and quite capable of blowing large holes in the bridge if they dont surrender.
The only exception to this might be if the hijackers originate from the ship itself as in a passenger takeover, hostage or mutiny situation.
In those cases might internal weapons positions do more harm than good?

 

[CosmicGamer]

After all the attackers will almost certainly have their own ship in close proximity, weapons hot and quite capable of blowing large holes in the bridge if they don't surrender.

Perhaps in some cases the threat to "let me in and I'll spare your lives" may work but not everyone will just give their ships away without running or fighting.

Situations are possible where someone just wants the cargo or a passenger or such.

In cases where the ship or the very valuable parts of it on the bridge and in engineering are the prize, to destroy the ship may not be the best choice and if the crew doesn't just hand her over, now comes the boarding action.

The "bunker" defense premiss is to discuss the possibilities to better protect certain parts of the ship instead of just sitting behind a closed door and waiting or fighting it out with no cover in the corridors. Maybe hinder someone with explosives or cutting tools or trying to hack or get past locking mechanisms.

One might even build some kind of bunker just inside the cargo doors to help prevent a gang with guns blazing from just coming in and hauling away your valuable cargo when your in port.

Not everyone has access to battle armor.
Not everyone has a death wish.

 

[Rabbit 3]

Perhaps in some cases the threat to "let me in and I'll spare your lives" may work but not everyone will just give their ships away without running or fighting.

Situations are possible where someone just wants the cargo or a passenger or such.

In cases where the ship or the very valuable parts of it on the bridge and in engineering are the prize, to destroy the ship may not be the best choice and if the crew doesn't just hand her over, now comes the boarding action.

The "bunker" defense premiss is to discuss the possibilities to better protect certain parts of the ship instead of just sitting behind a closed door and waiting or fighting it out with no cover in the corridors. Maybe hinder someone with explosives or cutting tools or trying to hack or get past locking mechanisms.

One might even build some kind of bunker just inside the cargo doors to help prevent a gang with guns blazing from just coming in and hauling away your valuable cargo when your in port.

Not everyone has access to battle armor.
Not everyone has a death wish.

All of which suggests that the most likely type of ships to carry these sort of features are the kind that operate on the fringes of or outside of the law.
That in turn would suggest that fixed "bunker" type defences might attract some unwanted questions from legal authorities if the ship ever has to carry out important maintenance on a high law level world.

 

[McPerth]

If the situation is that bad then its probably all over for the defenders anyway.
After all the attackers will almost certainly have their own ship in close proximity, weapons hot and quite capable of blowing large holes in the bridge if they dont surrender.
The only exception to this might be if the hijackers originate from the ship itself as in a passenger takeover, hostage or mutiny situation.
In those cases might internal weapons positions do more harm than good?

And that intended to be my point: Vladika said that in most cases decompression will already have occured, as to board a ship you must first cripple it. If you're confronting a take over attempt withut boarding (passengers, stowaways, etc...), decompression has not occurred yet (and I guess no side wants it to occur).

You're right that in tha case of a boarding, most times the ship is doomed anyway for its former owner, as his ship is crippled and the boarder's one is not.

All of which suggests that the most likely type of ships to carry these sort of features are the kind that operate on the fringes of or outside of the law.
That in turn would suggest that fixed "bunker" type defences might attract some unwanted questions from legal authorities if the ship ever has to carry out important maintenance on a high law level world.

IIRC MT:SOM talked about several more ways to make difficult a take over of your ship. I'm now talking from memory, but ITTR some of them were:

• Gas releasers in several points of the ship, releasing incapaciting gas (needless to say unseless if the attackers wear vacc suits)
• Overloading the safety lasers in the Iris valves (they are just to be sure nothing is on it before closing) to what ammounts a laser carabine (or even rifle) shot.
• Playing with gravity...
• Sure there are others I cannot remember now...

 

[aramis]

Forcing a boarding requires three things:
1) no maneuver capability of the target
2) maneuver ability of the aggressor
3) Ability to open a way in.

1 doesn't require holeing the hull under any current traveller ruleset.
3 can be done without exposing the interior to vacuum if the aggressor has a lock which mates to the target's locks, and can force, sleaze, or cut their way through. Typically, if one can get inside the outer door, one's past the security point. If nothing else, a manual override for powered hatches is likely to exist on civil shipping (not unlike what we see in 2010: Odyssey 2) as a means of rescue access. This is a vulnerability - it could, however, be potentially disabled by well developed designs. You put a clutch between the rescue manual override connection and the system, and have the clutch set to a fail is clutch in; a power-on linear motor holds the clutch out during periods of concern.

 

[Vladika]

Forcing a boarding requires three things:
1) no maneuver capability of the target
2) maneuver ability of the aggressor
3) Ability to open a way in.

I believe there is another requirement, namely that the ship to be boarded has no ability to fire offensive weaponry. At least for HG2. (See also separation)

BOARDING
Disabled enemy ships may be captured by boarding. In order for boarding to take place, two conditions must be satisfied.

First, the ship to be boarded must be disabled; it must be incapable of maneuvering, all of its offensive weapons must be disabled, and it must not have a working black globe generator.

Second, it must be separated from protecting friendly ships; this is assumed to occur if, at any point after the ship is disabled, the owning player has the initiative and changes range from short to long (retreating, in effect).

At any time thereafter, the ship may be boarded. Any ship capable of maneuver may attempt to board, and may do so from the safety of the reserve... HG -43-

 

[aramis]

I believe there is another requirement, namely that the ship to be boarded has no ability to fire offensive weaponry. At least for HG2. (See also separation)

​

While HG is too abstract, that's not actually a valid requirement; not being able to fire upon the approaching vessel is. if they have no maneuver, and no portside bearing weapons, the docking portside is perfectly safe...

 

[McPerth]

I believe there is another requirement, namely that the ship to be boarded has no ability to fire offensive weaponry. At least for HG2. (See also separation)

Once again a matter of setting and war rules that apply IYTU, but my guess is tht in most cases where a ship is under those conditions, if some Geneva Convention Equivalent is in force¹, the ship would either be evacuated or "strike its colours", being either scuttled or good for taking by the combat victor, depending on the war laws and customs IYTU.

Note 1: better said in use, as thre's no one to enforce it except the custom and gentelmen's agreement...​

 

[Rabbit 3]

Once again a matter of setting and war rules that apply IYTU, but my guess is tht in most cases where a ship is under those conditions, if some Geneva Convention Equivalent is in force¹, the ship would either be evacuated or "strike its colours", being either scuttled or good for taking by the combat victor, depending on the war laws and customs IYTU.

Note 1: better said in use, as thre's no one to enforce it except the custom and gentelmen's agreement...​

Seems reasonable most of the time, of course all bets may be off if the interstellar conflict is interspecies but in the 3I universe its probable that the major human players all have some sort of accords that they more or less adhere to towards each other.
So most professional military ship crews `do their duty`until their ship is rendered incapable of combat then follow set rules of behavior for disengagement or surrendering afterwards.

 

[Rabbit 3]

One thing thats always bothered me about the assumption that ships depressurise before combat.
Thing is where do you depressurise too?
Venting to space is ok but you then have the problem of replacing the internal atmospheric volume after combat otherwise you could find that the air your breathing is a bit on the thin side.
If you`re pumping it all into another, probably armoured section of the ship then you`re going to end up with a section that`s overpressured.
That might not be such a good idea if the other side gets lucky and hits it.
Potentially that section could end up like a large bomb inside your ship.

A smarter move might just be to have the crew wear vacc suits before combat and secured at their stations in case their section is hit and depressurises.

Perhaps the basic ship uniform is a light duty suit with enough life-support capability to keep you alive till you can get to a longer duration PLSS pack and maybe the accelleration couches the crew ar sitting in anyway incorporate a PLSS system anyway.

 

[McPerth]

One thing thats always bothered me about the assumption that ships depressurise before combat.
Thing is where do you depressurise too?
Venting to space is ok but you then have the problem of replacing the internal atmospheric volume after combat otherwise you could find that the air your breathing is a bit on the thin side.
If you`re pumping it all into another, probably armoured section of the ship then you`re going to end up with a section that`s overpressured.
That might not be such a good idea if the other side gets lucky and hits it.
Potentially that section could end up like a large bomb inside your ship.

The stndard assumption is just what you said, to vent the atmosphere to an overpresure section of the ship (it being armored is a good assumtion, IMHO).

While this might be as ending with a large bomb-like inside your ship, you already have some of them:

• Air reserves (sure they are in form of compressed air)
• medician oxygen (probable at least if you have a sick bay)
• Spare PPLSs
• Missiles (if your ship is so armed)
• Power plant (while it has been told here that a fusion plant is likely to just stop its fusion reaction if fails, I guess a failure of the magnetic or grav containement can be quite catastrophic)
• Several possibilities among cargo...
• Sure others I cannot think about right now

And, in any case, the probability of such hit is quite lower tan the damage that could be produced by several explosive decompressions...

A smarter move might just be to have the crew wear vacc suits before combat and secured at their stations in case their section is hit and depressurises.

Even if the crew is secured and fastened, explosive decompression might as well damage many ship components, unless everything is so secured. And never forget some crewmemebers may need to move along the ship in the middle of combat....

Perhaps the basic ship uniform is a light duty suit with enough life-support capability to keep you alive till you can get to a longer duration PLSS pack and maybe the accelleration couches the crew ar sitting in anyway incorporate a PLSS system anyway.

MT:WBH, when explaining the Tailored Vacc Suit tells us that it is the standard ship uniform for the scouts, with gloves and soft helmet off but ready to be put on. My guess is that Navy will use similar attitudes...

MT:HT also says that the usual crew uniform outside the safes is vacc suit (my guessing is tht tailored if available, for confort) with the helmet tied up and gloves Handy (what's called suit and tie).

So, your assumption about light vacc suit (or tailored one, with its better confort and armor) being standard shipcrew uniform seems to agree with MT (and maybe other versions; while I don't know well TNE, I guess it can be assumed too) canon, for unsafe areas/duties at least.

 

[aramis]

From TNE, The RCES uniform includes the Body Pressure Suit - a light duty vacc suit that has a separate belt for vacuum compression of the torso, and can be worn under normal clothing. It's TL10.
(The BPS is in the TNE rulebook; that it's the uniform is the RC Equipment guide IIRC.)

 

[Rabbit 3]

My fundemental problem with the whole idea is that with even a relatively small spacecraft we`re talking about a LOT of gas being pumped around and stored.

Say you decide to depressurise about 3/4 of you`re ship before going into combat, that more or less suggests that the atmospheric pressure in the remaining 1/4 is going to end up at about 4 standard atmospheres (in practice it might be a bit less as realworld air and spacecraft dont pressurise to sea level ratings) and it gets worse the smaller the volume you`re using!
There`s also the added problem of whether or not the `storage area` is also being used for something else besides.
For one thing you dont want to be moving anything (or anybody!) in out of these sections under combat conditions or have anyone working inside that area!

 

[Vladika]

My fundemental problem with the whole idea is that with even a relatively small spacecraft we`re talking about a LOT of gas being pumped around and stored.

Say you decide to depressurise about 3/4 of you`re ship before going into combat, that more or less suggests that the atmospheric pressure in the remaining 1/4 is going to end up at about 4 standard atmospheres (in practice it might be a bit less as realworld air and spacecraft dont pressurise to sea level ratings) and it gets worse the smaller the volume you`re using!
There`s also the added problem of whether or not the `storage area` is also being used for something else besides.
For one thing you dont want to be moving anything (or anybody!) in out of these sections under combat conditions or have anyone working inside that area!

Compressors and tanks? Gasses can be stored highly compressed or as liquids. You will have the same problem finding new air whether you depressurize on your own or have it done for you.