Ship building industry of the Third Imperium

[epicenter00]

Hell, I'd make a complaint right there to the local MOJ office. On the grounds that the shipyard is now endangering my ship, crew and passengers.

As a side note, I've always wondered about this. I'm sure the MOJ does handle complaints from the smallfolk - who knows how fast they actually get around to it. The quicker and more effective way is to probably speak to some noble you know, who can speak to another noble, who can introduce your friend to someone who can get your ship looked at faster.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Great another job....

So, that's another of those things us Barons get to do, cool.

 

[Captain Midnight]

I went into a fair bit of this over at the SJG forums, but since this discussion has gone a different direction, I'll chime in with some similar thoughts.

The logic is as follows in GURPS STARSHIPS (I thought I saw a JTAS reference in the CT reprints, but I can't find it off the bat darn it!)

Class A starport: 2 weeks
Class B starport: 2 weeks
Class C starport: 4 weeks
Class D starport: 8 weeks
Class E starport: 8 weeks

Class E starports are basically, nothing more than a cleared level area for the starship, implying that without the special tools, stockpiled parts etc - the annual maintenance would require 8 weeks.

Ditto with the class D starport.

Class C starports on the other hand, have repair facilities available for which makes it a C starport instead of a D or E. Apparently, repair facilities on hand, make the whole process take 1/2 the listed 8 weeks time.

This is where you're misreading the GT rules. It's only ever two weeks if you hire professionals to do the work, and those professionals are only located at A and B starports. If you do the work yourself, it takes four weeks at an A, B, or C-class starport, and *EIGHT* weeks at a D or E-class port, plus you have to have bought the parts from an A or B-class port beforehand.

Now, the ONLY thing that differences a class C starport from a class A or B starport, is that the class A and B starports have the ability to build ships/boats.

Could you provide a cite for this assertion? Most of my CT stuff is packed away, as I much prefer GT; however, my MT Referee's Manual indicates on p. 23 that there's a significant difference in the capabilities of the different levels. (GT is even more explicit about it, but I know several people over here don't like those materials.)

So what activities are conducted at a shipyard? So far, the only written activities are starship construction, starship repairs, and starship refits. Problem is - why are Class A and/or B starports required for Annual maintenance if not for the presense of their shipyards?

My initial guess would be that they've got enough designated technical staff to get the job done efficiently, as well as enough in the way of spare parts and equipment especially designed for overhaul to make them obvious places. I'd personally lean toward an interpretation that also called for the overhaul to be approved by some sort of a licensed "Overhaul Specialist" before your operating permit is renewed, but I'm a fan of such things. I've always put a fair bit of weight on the description of A/B (or Class IV & V) ports as "the highest quality installations".

In short, I see ships in overhaul tying up berthing space and technical staff, but not shipyard space. CT doesn't differentiate between these like GT does, and that's just one of the facets of the difference between the two versions.

 

[Hal]

Looking at the GURPS TRAVELLER STARSHIPS page 13, we see the following:

Class V: Installation of excellent quality. Anual maintenance overhaul available. Shipyard is capable of constructing starships and non-starships.

Class IV: Installation of good quality. These also offer annual maintenance overhaul services. Shipyard is capable of constructing non-starships.

Class III: Shipyard facilities are standard or average. Reasonable repairs may be accomodated. (Note: no mention of ship/boat hull production capabilities - ie, no Shipyard modules present)

Class 0, I, or II starports: no repair or shipyard facilities are present.

Now, lets look at what Classic Traveller uses for its starport designations. (taken from page 10 of Book 3: Worlds and Adventures:

Class A starport: Excellent quality installation, annual maintenance overhaul available, shipyard capable of building starships and non-starships. Naval base and/or scout base may be present.

Class B starport: Good quality installation, annual maintenance overhaul available, shipyard capable of constructing non-starships available. Naval and/or scout base may be present.

Class C starport: Routine quality installation, only unrefined fuel available. Reasonable repair facilities present. Scout base may be present.

Class D starport: Poor quality installation, only unrefined fuel available. No repair or shipyard facilities present. Scout base may be present.

Class E starport: Frontier installation. Essentially a marked spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present.

Either way you slice it, GURPS and/or CT describe their starports in the same manner. What is not all too well defined, but hinted at, is the difference between "reasonable" repairs, and repairs requiring a shipyard. Page 6 of SUPPLEMENT 9 FIGHTING SHIPS describes two separate repair/maintenance teams. They are the "Light maintenance" teams and the "Heavy Maintenance teams". One can perform light weight repairs/maintenance/refits that do not require a shipyard, and the other, performs repairs/maintenance/refits that affect the structural integrity of the hull. Basically, anything that is inside the hull can be handled, while the hull and spinal mounts (for example) would be heavy maintenance type work.

In any event - GURPS TRAVELLER STARSHIPS has put forth the idea that one can do annual maintenance overhauls in either 2 weeks, 4 weeks, or 8 weeks depending on the following factors:

Best: Specialized maintenance overhaul team utilizing the best equipment possible, in the best environment possible - with access to the materials required to effect the overhaul does it in two weeks.

Second Best: Non-specialized maintenance team (the ship's engineer, pilot, etc), in the second best environment with second best equipment - with access to the materials required to effect the overhaul does it in 4 weeks.

Worst case scenario: Non-specialized maintenance team (the ship's engineer, pilot, etc) in an environment with NO repair shop or facilities - with access to the materials required to effect the overhaul does it in 8 weeks.

Now, lets try mixing and matching. What happens when you take a specialized team, and have them work with the second best environment and tools/equipment? Will that team take between 2 and 4 weeks (in this case, 3 weeks)?

Since maintenance overhaul has no man-power requirements listed other than "the ship's crew" is it possible that the specialized maintenance overhaul team has twice the manpower of a ship's crew? If so, why didn't the ship maintenance overhaul rules include this? Since it wasn't included, and the only manpower values we do know is how many crew any given ship has - we can either assume that the manpower requirements remain the same, or we are forced to accept that twice the normal ship's crew can do the same work in less time than the allotted 8 weeks.

All in all? My philosophy is simple enough. For things that I want to detail in my own traveller universe - I can mull over quietly, write it down for my own use, and never mention it on any of the diverse Traveller discussion boards. Or? I can mention my thoughts, explain how I got to where I am by showing all work, and then letting overs mull it over as well. This way, ideas get exposure and others may benefit from the skull sweat. Likewise, when others present their ideas, I can either borrow them whole cloth, or modify them for my own use

One last thing before I forget. There is an obscure reference in JTAS to the cost of shipyard maintenance overhaul that I think people may find interesting. If a TL 15 ship pulls into a TL 12 shipyard, its maintenance costs are not in local credits, but in the higher TL 15 costs - using the exchange rate tables originally used in CT. That of course begs the question of what happens when you pull into a TL 15 starport to do maintenance on a TL 12 ship

 

[savage]

More Side notes:

No reason to buy/build your own shipyard if your in transport. The best solution is to setup contracts with chains of shipyards...see where that is going... same thing that happens today. Outsource everything focus on the core business unless there is expectation of a new profit direction.

Now, if I'm a senior TL15 engineer making standard wage on my TL15 homeworld... I might consider making more credits on those TL12 worlds that could use a whizzbang... toss in some locals training. Could be a good career direction. With part shipping going everywhere no reason I could not fix those typical issues (perhaps not overhauls) on advanced ships. TL is many cases is the average but does not mean you won't find a small ability to support higher tech. It's just bleeding edge.

You'll also get the big transports moving ships for overhauls, new sales, etc. same as today.

 

[Dagrill]

How long I wonder before one of those four yards gets sued for refusing service to a free trader and it's lost or damaged because the only place they could get service refused them? I mean supposing that the ship survives to make a complaint. Hell, I'd make a complaint right there to the local MOJ office. On the grounds that the shipyard is now endangering my ship, crew and passengers. Hell, if I was real lucky some of my regular patrons both passengers and for sure freight shippers might to get on board. Nothing like a good class action suit.
I Remain, In the Grand Imperium of the Stars, Your Humble Servant,
Magnus von Thornwood, Baron Regina, KOSM, IN (Ret.), Master: ISS Blue Smoke
---or---

Hi Magnus,

I think you are confusing the US legal system of sue anything, for anything with that of the Imperium. The Imperium will take notice of what the Nobles say in the moot, so their ships get to use the spaceyards, but a tramp freighter captain? How would that being be representented legally? He'd be told to go to a TL9 world and get his ship servived there, not waste scarce imperial assets.

Kind regards

David

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

A response.

Actually, I was more thinking that this would be one of those situations where a Trader's Guild makes itself known.

And trust me *grins evil Ref grin* I do understand the difference between the two systems, still the Imperium does have some sort of Court and Codex. Thus, I mean Admiralty Courts, and of course the various business courts, blah, blah, woof, woof.

 

[dccarles]

I think a free trader captain whose dihydrogen monoxide accretion-sublimination module[1] failed at a critical juncture because he couldn't get service is pretty much on his own. Even if the vital hygiene valve multipulse collimator system[2] went, legally the guy's got a whelk's chance in a supernova[3].

But back on shipyard capacity...

Ages back I tried to calculate the average amount of shipping a world would need; it was in a thread on merchant raiders, I think. I was drawing a parallel with the nearest thing we have iRL to a well-populated, highly-technological desert world. (Interplanetary flights mess up the calculations somewhat, but since these are back-of-the-envelope calculations meant to be within an order of magnitude or so of remotely plausible, it doesn't matter that much.) I didn't see the post last time I went browsing through my history, alas (which was yesterday.)

This would have a direct bearing on the required shipyard capacity for your average world (though we'd have to account for all those fast interplanetary shuttles, too.

I'll try to reproduce the numbers when I get off my gluteus maximus[4].

[Edit: Found the post.]

--Devin

[1] Ice cube maker.
[2] Shower head.
[3] I.e., none.
[4] You know damn well what that means.

 

[ThunderChilde]

More of an Middle Ages kinda Guild, with real power to effect some redress of issues. Nobles on retainer as it were, with perhaps the wide knowledge that the Sector Duke is a sponsor or protector.

A Guild office might be found with in the SPA offices in that case. It would be a counter weight to the ImpCorps to protect trade and access to ports and facilities for small and independent vessels.

On a seperate note, has anyone else considered the equivalent of a Yacht Basin in the OTU? Berthing and refueling, some repair and reprovisioning capacities. Here locally there is a Yacht basin that is totally dry, all boats are trucked to and from a local dockyard, and the repairs and upkeep are preformed at the dry facility. Echoes the repair yards off the main downport I've seen in a few maps.

 

[aramis]

One of the things that a lot of people overlook is that canon doesn't specify any form of civil courts.* So the threat of lawsuits presumes that one actually CAN sue outside of local courts.

IMTU, there is a civil process: via the appropriate nobleman. You want to sue Imperialines, you go to the sector or domain duke and make application in person. Their grace then commands appearance, usually over a year later, and each side gets X time to present evidence before then. The court appearance is actually the end point: final pleas and the noble rendering judgement. If the matter is time critical, a Ducal Warrant is issued instead, and some hapless nobleman gets to go make a stink as Inquisitor for the (Arch-)Duke. (Enter pc's here....)


*GURPS Traveller might, but it's a separate canon of its own.