Shipboard Conditions

[Timerover51]

My oldest brother was a reactor operator on one of the early US ballistic missile submarines, the USS James Monroe. The submarine had a submerged displacement of 8,380 metric tons, which as a metric ton of displacement is equal to one cubic meter, means that its internal volume was 8,380 cubic meters. A large portion of that internal volume was occupied by 16 missile tubes and the power plant, comprising pretty much all of the volume aft of the submarines sail. Another large portion of the volume of the submarine at the bow was the large bow-mounted sonar, which was in a water-filled compartment. The external images of the submarine do not really reflect the limited living space on the vessel. The crew was comprised of 13 officers and 130 enlisted men.

One Traveller displacement ton is equal to approximately 14 cubic meters, the volume of one metric ton of liquid hydrogen. Assuming that the submarine had one-half of its internal volume allocated to living space, that would give 4,190 cubic meters of volume. Dividing that figure by 14 gives a faction under 300 Traveller displacements tons of volume for living space. The total volume is 599.6 Traveller displacement tones, so call it 600 dTons. The crew comprised 143 men. That equates to 4.2 dTons of internal volume per crewman. Note, that is not cabin space, but the crewman's fraction of the entire ship's volume. For actual living space, the crew had 2.1 dTons of space, which included messing area, limited shower facilities, a fairly large torpedo room, officer quarters, and the control room area. The submarine submerged upon departing Pearl Harbor, and did not surface until it was close to Pearl Harbor at the end of its patrol. The patrol length was 60 days, constantly underwater.

 

[pendragonman]

At 600 dtons it sounds like Spacer's niches and communal freshers for everyone!

But seriously, those are dimensions we can design around.

 

[Timerover51]

At 600 dtons it sounds like Spacer's niches and communal freshers for everyone!

But seriously, those are dimensions we can design around.

I did not have time to finish the post before dinner and Bible Study. That crew density equates to having 47.6 or 48 crewmen on a 200 dTon Free Trader, or 142.9 crewmen on a 600 dTon liner. The 4.2 dTons is the total space per crewmen on the submarine.

The captain's stateroom on a World War 2 U.S. Gato-class submarine, which was viewed by the British as overly-luxious (until they started trying to do extended Pacific patrols) was just large enough for a bunk 6 feet log, an overhead bin and below the bunk locker, a small triangular desk with chair and with a small safe above it, and a wash basin. Call it a 1.5 meter by 1.5 meter stateroom with a bit more than 6 feet of head room, so figure one-half of a Traveller dTon. War patrols could run up to 60 days, depending on how long it took to get to the patrol area. For the rest of the officers, there were 2 per stateroom of that size, in bunks.

As for conditions on the immigrant ships of the late 1800s, they were much worse, and the steerage passengers were NOT allowed on deck. That was reserved for the first and second class passengers, so that they did not have to associate with the "great unwashed", which was literally true, as the steerage passengers were restricted to between one and two gallons of water per day per person.

For any member of the Forum that is near a submarine museum with a World War 2 submarine, I was highly encourage a visit to it to see exactly how tight crew quarters can be and have the men still function at a high level.

 

[welsh]

For any member of the Forum that is near a submarine museum with a World War 2 submarine, I was highly encourage a visit to it to see exactly how tight crew quarters can be and have the men still function at a high level.

This really does deserve a separate thread.

We have a problem with deck plans that makes Traveller ships more spacious than they are. The ship design rules allocate crew space in big blocks based on single occupancy as a default (which is a problem in itself), but when we turn to deck plans there were never any guidelines on what had to fit into that block. So deck plans are missing all kinds of stuff. We also allow a generous fudge factor.

Where is the galley? Where are the toilets and showers? (Magically incorporated into SRs without regard for plumbing....) Where is the food stored? Where is the fresh water? Where is the ductwork that circulates the air, and the scrubbers that clean it? How do we magically repressurize hulls -- where does that air come from? And so on.

I subsume zero-G into Vacc Suit, they get Vacc Suit-0, and STR -1/DEX +1/END - 1.

High-G gets STR +2 /DEX -1.

Returning to the topic at hand ... my inclination is not to give DEX bonuses or penalties here. This is seeking to balance what should be a penalty.

If a character actually spent the first 18 yrs of his life under zero G or near zero G, I would hit him with STR and END -4. But in reality, knowing that this environment would have severe effects on muscle + bone development, I assume grav plates, as on ships, provide near normal gravity in living spaces, and just ignore the effect.

Likewise, I assume that growing up in this environment doesn't necessarily require you to go outside. Just as a kid growing up in a large city today may never learn to drive, a kid on a vacuum world may never need a vacc suit.

As mentioned, I'm not a big fan of handing skills out by default because limitations are just as important as abilities. But on my backburner is a project to develop a reasonable list of background skills that people can choose from - one or two skills out of that list. So your zero G kid can choose whether to take Vacc Suit-0 or, say, Carousing-1. It's a conscious choice of who we want the character to be, instead of a default.

 

[Enoki]

There's a documentary about tight quarters on American submarines during the Great Patriotic War, called Operation Petticoat.

Here's a video of a US DD made in the early 50's. They go over living space in detail. Officially 13 cubic feet of space per man is authorized. The crew gets 11.5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RHcz1KS7F8

 

[Timerover51]

When you look at shipboard living conditions, it should be remember that the ship at sea a lot, and does tend to do things like roll and pitch, and does not run for cover when their is a storm or bad weather. Winter in the North Atlantic is not nice. The idea that the crew can go outside compared to the crew of a ship in Jump space does not consider those factors. When a ship is rolling 15 or so degrees each way, simply staying on your feet is a major effort, as it trying not to get seasick, and also keep your food on the mess table and not on the deck or one of your other crewmen.

 

[Timerover51]

Those interested in how tight the living quarters were on a U.S. World War 2 submarine might want to take a look at the following video. It should also be noted that the British viewed the U.S. subs as quite luxurious until they discovered the reason for that when they tried to do long sub patrols in the topics. Air conditioning was not optional but necessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQnvWkqNw1Y

By the way, you might notice a familiar face at the start, just not in the expected uniform.

 

[aramis]

Thread created from the divergence point on from Extra 0-level skills at the start of a game?

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

just to add my personal addition.

I recently spent 3 weeks sailing a the ship in this photo, which can take a crew of 16.

it was cramped, there was almost zero privacy, and the top deck was generally too unpleasant to hang around on unless you were on shift. however, it wasn't unbearable, and you just adjusted your expectations, and looked forward to getting off the boat into port. we also had a girl on-board with us with basically zero problems.

total personal space was a bunk, and a storage cupboard about 18inch square and 4 feet deep. everything else was shared.

It almost certainly helped that everyone on the ship was army or navy, and as such was already adjusted to the idea of communal living and the etiquette of such.

which, i think ties into the OPs main comment, which is that while its possible to people to live like this, not everyone can, and not everyone can without incident or problems.

 

[Ishmael]

http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...ovies-dont-show-you-about-life-submarine.html

I wonder what canon deployment times are like...

 

[Condottiere]

Whose, the Imperium Navy?

Home port and patrol area, though with such short maintenance cycles, you could keep them constantly in service with two crews alternatively taking three or six month tours.

Useful during mobilization, since the extra crews could be assigned to demothballed ships.

 

[Timerover51]

http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...ovies-dont-show-you-about-life-submarine.html

I wonder what canon deployment times are like...

Actually, this TV series on the Silent Service does give a pretty good idea as to what is was like, as it was dene using actual WW2 Submarines for filming. In this one, you might see a familiar face.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQnvWkqNw1Y

 

[Selandia]

There are aplenty of writing on North Atlantic migrants.

My latest reading "Steam Titans" (early days, the Cunard-Collins competition where sailling ship were still the norm for poor immigrants). For those that worry avoul LP survival rate, that is about what those fleeing misery in those years were ready to face. Cunard's Britania price: 80$ first class steam vs 10$ tweendeck sail is near the HP-LP rate. In those days even first class had limited common rooms.

T5 does have a real steerage class

have fun

Selandia

 

[MThompson016]

Whose, the Imperium Navy?

Home port and patrol area, though with such short maintenance cycles, you could keep them constantly in service with two crews alternatively taking three or six month tours.

Useful during mobilization, since the extra crews could be assigned to demothballed ships.

The problem withe two crews is that unless you're willing to fully fund maintenance (always an issue), problems with equipment get left in the lurch between the crews. We had a saying there are really three crews on a T-Hull, Blue Crew, Gold Crew, and the Other Crew. As an example, it was said SSBN's are second in priority to the carriers for maintenance money and equipment at the Navy Yards, and there were always issues with some gear during the turnover and shipyard period.

 

[Enoki]

The problem withe two crews is that unless you're willing to fully fund maintenance (always an issue), problems with equipment get left in the lurch between the crews. We had a saying there are really three crews on a T-Hull, Blue Crew, Gold Crew, and the Other Crew. As an example, it was said SSBN's are second in priority to the carriers for maintenance money and equipment at the Navy Yards, and there were always issues with some gear during the turnover and shipyard period.

Trust me when I say there's always issues with machinery and gear. The problem never ends. It gets better sometimes, other times it's worse.

 

[Ishmael]

Deployed might be on the order of 6-10 months ( based on USN, which is cutting back to 8 months nowadays ) for the sake of morale and crew retention. People don't stay in as much when separated from wives/families for too long. Hijinks might ensue if the Imperium allows for polygamy and a girl/family in every port should the ship have multiple "home" ports.

This is going to set a radius of operations for a given ship; time to get on station, fulfilling various missions while on station, getting back to home port.

Even when not deployed, you might still be underway for various reasons including training and testing equipment.

In port was to do heavy maintenance and training, etc.

Rotating crews was not seen as viable when I served.

For the usual budget, manpower costs were topped only by operations costs. Much of the current building is to cut down on crew requirements.

 

[Condottiere]

Frozen family.

Time out becomes a real threat if it means going back to the freezer early.

 

[Chaos]

Frozen family.

Time out becomes a real threat if it means going back to the freezer early.

ROFL

 

[Grav_Moped]

Frozen family.

Time out becomes a real threat if it means going back to the freezer early.

That'd track well with the idea of a ship's Frozen Watch, too. Keeps the crew from getting too out of sync with their families back dirtside.

I can see institutionalizing this.
Freezing's not risk free, but you know the Navy's going to keep the famsicles physically secure.
And it's a self-funding retirement plan for the whole family, too -- compound interest works wonders!

 

[infojunky]

I often wonder if a formulaic method for applying volume to various aspects of a ship's life support would be in order.

Say half a dTon of fresher supporter 4 people, a dTon of galley supports x number of people, Etc. etc... Alongside that Stores space, currently I use the Provisions and Life Support supplies rules from the Keith Brother Letter of Marque book from Cargonaut Press.